Impeaching Bush?

[UncleBacon]

I can't at work a lot of things get blocked on here....when I get home tomorrow I will

 

[GraceAbounds]

icecuban:

First off, i think a guy who claims to be such a christian, then DOESNT have the balls to turn the other cheek , is a complete hypocrate, and thats the last type of person i want running my country. if he wants to say he has no beliefs, or he believes in the bible except for the whole turning the other cheek part (and every other humane thing), then maybe id understand him a little better.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it, which is what your statement seems to imply; to which I say go back and read the whole picture, not just the part you like. The responsibilities given to leaders are different than those that are given to those not in leadership. Our leaders have responsibilities that we do not, which is why God calls us to pray for those in leadership as they have authority and responsibility of handing out justice and order here on earth. You fail to see the times that Jesus rebuked people calling them Satan or straight up just walked away from them. It can't be all law and no gospel, nor can it be all gospel and no law. God stands for balance, justice, righteousness just as much as he stands for love, peace, and unity.

And it also seems like you have a very low opinion of every single one of our leaders. Why so cynical? Our leaders, all of them, are flawed just like the rest of us are. They are not perfect, none of them. But I have much respect for those in charge, their job is not an easy one. Some fall from their positions of leadership, as we all do because of mistakes we make and lessons we need to learn. But to act like Bush is evil is just ridiculous. I have respect for the man. He has convictions, a great sense of right and wrong, and he stands behind those convictions. He doesn't live out his presidency by opinion polls that change from one day to the next. That imo shows character.

Many times it is the unpopular opinion that is the right one. Just because a million flies swarm to something (a pile of crap) doesn't mean it is the right way to go.

 

[All Else Failed]

Grace did you see this: Also, I have no idea why some of you who are Christians are OK with torture? Ever hear the line (I'm paraphrasing here): "What you do unto your fellow man, you do unto me."? So if you say torturing your fellow man is ok, you're basically slapping jesus in the face. :^/

 

[GraceAbounds]

Grace did you see this: Also, I have no idea why some of you who are Christians are OK with torture? Ever hear the line (I'm paraphrasing here): "What you do unto your fellow man, you do unto me."? So if you say torturing your fellow man is ok, you're basically slapping jesus in the face. :^/

I would do what needs to be done to protect my family, just as God does what he needs to do at times to protect, teach, and guide His people. Not all of the things that God has done were all roses and kisses. Sometimes he killed us. (oh gasp, no one wants to hear that)


The issue of being a Christian means growing and becoming more Christ-like. But Jesus = God = Holy Spirit = (3 in 1). And like I said God stands for balance, justice, righteousness just as much as he stands for love, peace, and unity. So being a Christian also means being a realist. I am going to love people, but I am not going to let them destroy me in the process of me loving them. Thus biblical boundaries.

When it was obvious someone had a hard heart Jesus would get up and walk away. He was sarcastic in that his words flew right over the heads of the willfully stupid. He didn't waste his time on those that didn't have a right heart. Even some of his own disciples were willfully stupid. Jesus was not all love and kisses all the time as some would like us to believe, though yes that was a major part of his overall message. But remember he had no problem rebuking someone. He stood for truth and what is right as well as love. Keep in mind though that the Son of Man had a specific mission to accomplish here on earth. And because of his specific mission we are not to think that Jesus' time here omitted the other characteristics of God the Father and also those of the Holy Spirit.

On another note, many also do not seem to understand how to read the Bible. Some parts of the Bible are history. Some are narrative. Some is genealogy. Some of the Bible are letters written to 'believers' in a church. You can't take something that was written to a 'believer' and then apply it to an 'unbeliever', by doing so you change the intent and meaning. Some things were written as law to establish a nation, other things were written as prayer. It is important to read these things in context. It is important to know and understand the who, what, where, when, and why so that it is not applied improperly to our lives today like the Fred Phelps of today *crazy man icon*. People that haven't read the Bible or are just starting to read the Bible, or have not grown in their relationship with the Lord seem to 'pluck verses' without knowing the big picture because they haven't read the whole book.

 

[Maritxu]

I'm not a big fan of torture, but I'm a little conflicted on drawing such a hard line against it too.

With the rules laid out like they now are, why on Earth will a prisoner ever tell an interrogator anything except "**** you. Where's my hot meal?" Now they don't even have to have a fear of the unknown.

I am also conflicted on the correctness of sending prisoners to allied nations that are known to not stand on torture principals the same way we do. We have become too politically correct in this country to gather information that is critical to have in real time. As of today, we have no choice but to ask others to do the hard, disgusting work for us, that we may be able to save lives. I'm not saying it's right, but what I am saying, is how should the decision be made when you only have bad choices? Innocent people die, or we hurt this guy, and in the process become less innocent ourselves?

I fear we're painting ourselves into a terrible corner here. The more tools we lay down forever, the fewer tools we have available to us to stop these people in the future. The driving forces to lay down our weapons will NEVER EVER be quieted, so appeasement to me seems to be a futile gesture.

I have said many times that I wish for nothing more than the vision of the liberal world to be reality. Who doesn't want peace and love and clean air and food and education for all mankind?? The day guns, and power become obsolete will be a great day indeed. The problem is, that today is not that day. If the good men and women of this world refuse to be more powerful than the evil men and women of this world, then evil will prevail. They are not handicapped by our conscience or our morals. If we refuse to be strong, they will say jump, and our only choice will be death, or the question "How high?"

In this vision of the future, idealism itself would be destroyed.

The way I see it, there's one flaw in your argument and post that makes it fail, and I will try to tell you what it is and why. With the common practices in Guantanamo bay, what you should really expect from a prisoner out of an interrogation is everything but the Truth. Everyone of us would say they murdered Jesus Himself if we were put to psychological and physical torture like the one those people have to endure. Then it's when your argument about torture saving lives becomes absolutely wrong. Any conffession obtained via torture is not valid in any way, never.
I don't want to say how bad torture is, don't think it's necessary as many before me have stated it already. You speak in your posts about you (or us, if I may include my country) being the good ones, needing to be strong against the bad ones, and I wouldn't disagree... I am a bit exceptical about what makes us good though. I don't know who gave us or the US the moral power to actually say what is right and what is wrong, but even if we were, aren't we supposed to set an example? why would we violate human rights when we say we are deffending them? that is just too contradictory for me...

 

[NightWarrior]

The way I see it, there's one flaw in your argument and post that makes it fail, and I will try to tell you what it is and why. With the common practices in Guantanamo bay, what you should really expect from a prisoner out of an interrogation is everything but the Truth. Everyone of us would say they murdered Jesus Himself if we were put to psychological and physical torture like the one those people have to endure. Then it's when your argument about torture saving lives becomes absolutely wrong. Any conffession obtained via torture is not valid in any way, never.
I don't want to say how bad torture is, don't think it's necessary as many before me have stated it already. You speak in your posts about you (or us, if I may include my country) being the good ones, needing to be strong against the bad ones, and I wouldn't disagree... I am a bit exceptical about what makes us good though. I don't know who gave us or the US the moral power to actually say what is right and what is wrong, but even if we were, aren't we supposed to set an example? why would we violate human rights when we say we are deffending them? that is just too contradictory for me...

WTF is exceptical? Is that like homosexicals?

All kidding aside. Let me give you and everyone else a hypothetical scenario and then you tell me if torturing someone to get information should be justified.

Lets say your beautiful 7 year old daughter was kidnapped. It was discovered that the perpetrators are a known group of radicals who like to rape and torture their kidnap victims in order to get a larger ransom. During a botched ransom drop-off exchange, one of these radicals was caught. He does not give up any info, even with full immunity on the line. Would you justify the torture of this prisoner to try to find out info on where your precious daughter is held, knowing that if you do not find out within the next 8 hours, she most likely will be killed, more than likely painfully.

 

[dt3]

WTF is exceptical? Is that like homosexicals?

All kidding aside. Let me give you and everyone else a hypothetical scenario and then you tell me if torturing someone to get information should be justified.

Lets say your beautiful 7 year old daughter was kidnapped. It was discovered that the perpetrators are a known group of radicals who like to rape and torture their kidnap victims in order to get a larger ransom. During a botched ransom drop-off exchange, one of these radicals was caught. He does not give up any info, even with full immunity on the line. Would you justify the torture of this prisoner to try to find out info on where your precious daughter is held, knowing that if you do not find out within the next 8 hours, she most likely will be killed, more than likely painfully.

I'd personally put a drill through the back of his kneecaps. That's just me though.

 

[NightWarrior]

I'd personally put a drill through the back of his kneecaps. That's just me though.

And then wire them together with barbed wire. All the while pouring rubbing alcohol on the wounds.

People can never rationalize things unless they are put on a personal level and will directly affect them. It is easy to say "I don't justify this or that on terrorists at Getmo". However, let one of them be someone who just killed your mother with their dirty bomb, then lets see you tree hug something.

 

[Maritxu]

WTF is exceptical? Is that like homosexicals?

All kidding aside. Let me give you and everyone else a hypothetical scenario and then you tell me if torturing someone to get information should be justified.

Lets say your beautiful 7 year old daughter was kidnapped. It was discovered that the perpetrators are a known group of radicals who like to rape and torture their kidnap victims in order to get a larger ransom. During a botched ransom drop-off exchange, one of these radicals was caught. He does not give up any info, even with full immunity on the line. Would you justify the torture of this prisoner to try to find out info on where your precious daughter is held, knowing that if you do not find out within the next 8 hours, she most likely will be killed, more than likely painfully.

Oops sorry Skeptical is the word I was looking for. 4 languages sometimes bring to confussion.
What if he doesn't know anything? what if he is innocent? you always have to think that you may have gotten the wrong guy, or one that simply doesn't know anything at all. There are people who have admited to the craziest things only under psychological preassure. Most of those who would actually be guilty are ready and prepaired to say nothing, or link the investigation far away from the actual truth. Won't come into human rights now, we all know them anyway.

 

[Tim]

I think that is the most important part to this equation. The vast majority (hundreds) of prisoners at Abu Graib who were tortured, were innocent and released.

as Scott pointed out "If the good men and women of this world refuse to be more powerful than the evil men and women of this world, then evil will prevail." The fact that we live by rule of law is what makes us the good guys.

 

[NightWarrior]

Oops sorry Skeptical is the word I was looking for. 4 languages sometimes bring to confussion.
What if he doesn't know anything? what if he is innocent? you always have to think that you may have gotten the wrong guy, or one that simply doesn't know anything at all. There are people who have admited to the craziest things only under psychological preassure. Most of those who would actually be guilty are ready and prepaired to say nothing, or link the investigation far away from the actual truth. Won't come into human rights now, we all know them anyway.

I was also kidding about the spelling

I said, they caught the guy during the botched ransom exchange, how could he be innocent? I didn't leave this to interpretation. Now tell me how you feel.

Boo hoo, I feel for the "innocent" people at Guantomono Bay. Sometimes the sacrifice of a few outweighs the sacrifice of many, IMHO. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. 9/11 happened because we have been all too slack on who comes and goes in this country. I for one say to close the door to ALL Middle Easterners. Stay on your own continent. Then there will be no "racial" profiling. Its about time America starts to pick and choose who can come here or not.

 

[sexy.time]

his term is over fairly soon. i would say get him out right now cuz hes fucked alot of stuff up. but alteast let the man go out with a sliver of dignity.

 

[icecuban]

WTF is exceptical? Is that like homosexicals?

All kidding aside. Let me give you and everyone else a hypothetical scenario and then you tell me if torturing someone to get information should be justified.

Lets say your beautiful 7 year old daughter was kidnapped. It was discovered that the perpetrators are a known group of radicals who like to rape and torture their kidnap victims in order to get a larger ransom. During a botched ransom drop-off exchange, one of these radicals was caught. He does not give up any info, even with full immunity on the line. Would you justify the torture of this prisoner to try to find out info on where your precious daughter is held, knowing that if you do not find out within the next 8 hours, she most likely will be killed, more than likely painfully.

id have to say, in all ive done, the best way to get information from someone was never through pain, but through befriending them. spend 7 hours talking about how good life can be, and how important life really is.
if you think this is an impossiblity to do, then try to imagine a pure heart talking, and not just another person trying to tell someone about lives goodness. i can guarantee that not only is this method more effective, and completely moral (not to mention, through my beliefs, anything is possible when u let god be the talker, and you the vesel, and to resort to violence would be a slap in gods face.).
i know a lot of you would disagree with that method, probably say you might as well kill your daughter if thats the case, but if i was to resort to violence, i feel id have already killed her, and my own moral self.

 

[icecuban]

icecuban:
Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it, which is what your statement seems to imply; to which I say go back and read the whole picture, not just the part you like. The responsibilities given to leaders are different than those that are given to those not in leadership. Our leaders have responsibilities that we do not, which is why God calls us to pray for those in leadership as they have authority and responsibility of handing out justice and order here on earth. You fail to see the times that Jesus rebuked people calling them Satan or straight up just walked away from them. It can't be all law and no gospel, nor can it be all gospel and no law. God stands for balance, justice, righteousness just as much as he stands for love, peace, and unity.

And it also seems like you have a very low opinion of every single one of our leaders. Why so cynical? Our leaders, all of them, are flawed just like the rest of us are. They are not perfect, none of them. But I have much respect for those in charge, their job is not an easy one. Some fall from their positions of leadership, as we all do because of mistakes we make and lessons we need to learn. But to act like Bush is evil is just ridiculous. I have respect for the man. He has convictions, a great sense of right and wrong, and he stands behind those convictions. He doesn't live out his presidency by opinion polls that change from one day to the next. That imo shows character.

Many times it is the unpopular opinion that is the right one. Just because a million flies swarm to something (a pile of crap) doesn't mean it is the right way to go.

your right, he said he came to divide, but the one who comes after him comes to unite. im pretty sure thats in there, isnt it? and i like the parts i say, because they are in the correct context of the conversation. but your right, i have to re-read it because i seemed to miss the part about acting violently to your enemies. i thought i read, "love your enemies", but it must have been talking about tough love huh? like killing them out of love? that makes sense right? lol, no, not really. but if you can recite some parts about leaders doing what followers shouldnt do, id be all for it. the only part i can remember jesus saying to not do what he did, was when he said not to follow him down the road of being the sacrificial lamb, (and like you said, the perpetrators, or enemies, were not satan, but a lamb with evil in their hearts, turning them to wolves, aka, there are no wolves or satan people, just pure lambs involved in evil.).
im pretty sure, also, that we are to answer and bow to no one, but god itself. god does not put his judgement in the hands of politicians, are u kidding me? i bow to love, and if love asks to kill my enemies, then love has gone back on the word it teaches.
Love is gospel and law, that is the balance to be looked on. love always makes a balance of itself, because all things lead to love in the end, not just a balance of love and hate in the end, or does heaven have hate too, to balance things out there?
I still dont understand how some people can hear someone talk bad about bush, and think they are bandwagon people, or a million flies to shit, as u say. this is rediculous, ive always been on the short end of popular opinion, especially within christian circles, because in one way, shape, or form, they all let violence into their teachings, to which, i dont understand why. is it because faulty believers just cant think of a better way of getting the job done? or a lack of faith that god can wave his hand and get things done, without people waving their gun?
I hope this is the last time i hear "stop agreeing with the anti bush people, because its not that i hate bush, its that i know love, and i dont bow to those who dont follow it every step of the way, i dont care who or what they are.
And have u ever thought he doesnt change his ground, because during his presidency, the term "flip flopper" was a big issue, and for him to have the balls and strong "character" to admit faults in his convictions or attemps is no longger an option for him, because then he really would be an outsider amongst those closest to him, which he does not want to do, because family means a lot to him, more then doing what is right sometimes.

 

[dt3]

id have to say, in all ive done, the best way to get information from someone was never through pain, but through befriending them. spend 7 hours talking about how good life can be, and how important life really is.
if you think this is an impossiblity to do, then try to imagine a pure heart talking, and not just another person trying to tell someone about lives goodness. i can guarantee that not only is this method more effective, and completely moral (not to mention, through my beliefs, anything is possible when u let god be the talker, and you the vesel, and to resort to violence would be a slap in gods face.).
i know a lot of you would disagree with that method, probably say you might as well kill your daughter if thats the case, but if i was to resort to violence, i feel id have already killed her, and my own moral self.

The type of people our country is fighting don't care about talk or our "god".

 

[icecuban]

I would do what needs to be done to protect my family, just as God does what he needs to do at times to protect, teach, and guide His people. Not all of the things that God has done were all roses and kisses. Sometimes he killed us. (oh gasp, no one wants to hear that)


The issue of being a Christian means growing and becoming more Christ-like. But Jesus = God = Holy Spirit = (3 in 1). And like I said God stands for balance, justice, righteousness just as much as he stands for love, peace, and unity. So being a Christian also means being a realist. I am going to love people, but I am not going to let them destroy me in the process of me loving them. Thus biblical boundaries.

When it was obvious someone had a hard heart Jesus would get up and walk away. He was sarcastic in that his words flew right over the heads of the willfully stupid. He didn't waste his time on those that didn't have a right heart. Even some of his own disciples were willfully stupid. Jesus was not all love and kisses all the time as some would like us to believe, though yes that was a major part of his overall message. But remember he had no problem rebuking someone. He stood for truth and what is right as well as love. Keep in mind though that the Son of Man had a specific mission to accomplish here on earth. And because of his specific mission we are not to think that Jesus' time here omitted the other characteristics of God the Father and also those of the Holy Spirit.

On another note, many also do not seem to understand how to read the Bible. Some parts of the Bible are history. Some are narrative. Some is genealogy. Some of the Bible are letters written to 'believers' in a church. You can't take something that was written to a 'believer' and then apply it to an 'unbeliever', by doing so you change the intent and meaning. Some things were written as law to establish a nation, other things were written as prayer. It is important to read these things in context. It is important to know and understand the who, what, where, when, and why so that it is not applied improperly to our lives today like the Fred Phelps of today *crazy man icon*. People that haven't read the Bible or are just starting to read the Bible, or have not grown in their relationship with the Lord seem to 'pluck verses' without knowing the big picture because they haven't read the whole book.

im pretty sure jesus was supposed to be a sign that no more death was going to be brought down from god on its people, that was the new covenent i believe,lol. hence, a new testement.
a realist? we're talking about putting our faith in something that travels on the breeze and in our bones, and you want to talk about reality? the fact that god performs miracles in ways that seem unreal, or go against "natures laws" (walking on water, bringing back the dead), should show that a true believer isnt what this world would call a realist,lol. i think they call them looney. but to me, god is a "real idealist", because it is in a pure idea that greatness appears, especially the ideas that seem extreamly far fetched, because its those kind of things that require the most faith to perform.
He didnt just preach to believers by the way. thats why he extended the teaching of god from the jews to gentiles alike. he asked non believers to have dinner with him, then his disciples would question him as to why he would invite such people, and it was because the shephard always goes for the lost sheep, not the ones in the fold already.
no, he did not just hug everyone, like a uniter would (like the one who was to follow him, not like a divider, which jesus has done a good job of doing, as we can see with all his different opinioned followers,lol), but when he rebuked, he didnt hurt anyone either. the only time he showed any acts of violence was when he turned over a money table in gods house, that hardly gives credence to war,lol. do you think you have enough faith to go over seas and encounter "legion" (for there are many, u read the bible, u know that part right?), and pursuade the demons within to leave and run into the sea? or do you think you'd have to kill him, and all his evil memebers?
All i know is I "plucked" love out of the bible, and thats all that matters. all it takes is a bit of thinking and character to follow love wherever it leads, even if it leads to certain death, because death cannot steal my soul, but to act out of love could.

 

[icecuban]

The type of people our country is fighting don't care about talk or our "god".

no, but our god should be love, and everyone knows love to a certain degree, because we all love ourselves enough to wake up every morning despite what might happen to us. i think love, and god, live in all. if god did not live in everything, then it wouldnt be god, because god Is everything. so you speak less to the person, and more to the god within, and there you find a listening ear. even for my enemy, i will put myself in harms way for him, and even if he did not "know" of my god before, he would know him through the love i tried to give him, and in that, he knows my god, and just might start loving, himself.

my dad once asked me, how do you think other faiths will listen to you when jesus says, "the only way to get to heaven is through me?". and i said, well, jesus is just a word and body, but what he is, is love, so really, the path to heaven isnt nescesarily through a man called jesus, its through the feeling of love. and through this, all can be reached.

 

[icecuban]

I was also kidding about the spelling

I said, they caught the guy during the botched ransom exchange, how could he be innocent? I didn't leave this to interpretation. Now tell me how you feel.

Boo hoo, I feel for the "innocent" people at Guantomono Bay. Sometimes the sacrifice of a few outweighs the sacrifice of many, IMHO. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. 9/11 happened because we have been all too slack on who comes and goes in this country. I for one say to close the door to ALL Middle Easterners. Stay on your own continent. Then there will be no "racial" profiling. Its about time America starts to pick and choose who can come here or not.

you want to know why the world is the way it is? look no farther then "boo hoo" compasion. if we had compassion of the people in the middle east, and never sided with isreal in their wars, then this shit wouldnt be going on, we wouldnt have to worry who comes in or out of the country, because they wouldnt have the need to train in blowing us up.
good thing, through divine providence, that you werent born in a country that did evil things,even though you had no part or care in it, then one day, you and your family get picked up for questionings and torture, though you have no information. boo hoo huh? looks like you were just born in the wrong place. and your family and values mean nothing to the interigators, because your just another egg needed to make an omelet.
to me, beheading someone is probably more moral then torturing, at least then, your not fucking them up for hours before you kill them, or leave them maimed for life. when i think about it, that makes them less savage then we are in that respect.

 

[dt3]

through this, all can be reached.

Except hard line fanatics who only want to give their lives for their cause because they have been lied to their entire lives and made to believe that's what their god wants.

beheading someone is probably more moral then torturing, at least then, your not fucking them up for hours before you kill them, or leave them maimed for life. when i think about it, that makes them less savage then we are in that respect.

Obviously you've never thought about the pain involved in a beheading. Imagine the feel of the knife on the back of your neck right before they begin sawing through your spinal cord. Now imagine doing it to a civilian who was trying to rebuild your country.

Nothing savage about that.

 

[icecuban]

Except hard line fanatics who only want to give their lives for their cause because they have been lied to their entire lives and made to believe that's what their god wants.



Obviously you've never thought about the pain involved in a beheading. Imagine the feel of the knife on the back of your neck right before they begin sawing through your spinal cord. Now imagine doing it to a civilian who was trying to rebuild your country.

Nothing savage about that.

there is some amount of pain in most all death, what im talking about it a slow, torturous, agonizing pain, that lasts for months and months, not a few minutes,

and i dont care how long a person has been brain washed, a true heart lives in all, as god does. to think otherwise would go against my whole belief structure (the belief that god is everywhere). god can do anything, im sure, including making the blind see again.

but they do not see u as a civilian trying to rebuild a country. they see you as a threat. once they find u less a threat, and more someone who agrees with some things they say, change can happen.

again, we all have more similarities then differences. find a translator if you dont already know arabic, and find good metaphors. everyone knows what its like to feel a cool breeze on a scorching day, from there, relate it to things that we all bond on. there are commonalities in all, we just have to find the heart and mind to express them. in fear and pain, many cant do this, but to think of the pain or revenge, and they get past the thought of finding common ground and friendship, because loved ones have been lost in the process. but to move forward, the feelings of hatred or distance ideals, need to be set aside for a greater good that can last forever.