Impeaching Bush?

[UncleBacon]

so for other countries its ok to torture to interrogate people but for Americans its morally wrong....thats basically what you just said

 

[All Else Failed]

Thats not what he said at all....

 

[UncleBacon]

It's actually pretty interesting in how people can still support this president. This isn't a democratic or republican issue, this is an issue that affects every last citizen of this great country. The president is sworn to uphold the constitution, yes, that god damned piece of paper as he once called it. It doesn't matter who is in office, defending the constitution and the laws of the land are more important than any administration whether it be democrat or republican. It doesn't matter what any of his predecessors did or said, all that matters now is that he carry out the duties appointed to him within the confines of the law.

We suffered a great loss on 9/11 at the hands of terrorists. They succeeded in ways they could not have foreseen. Not only did they instill fear, they succeeded in turning our government upon its own people. Laws and constitutional rights have been set aside in the name of our safety. We are held in fear that is perpetuated by our own government. Our fears and emotions from that attack were used to take us to war with a dictator who refused to sell us his oil. We were told that we had to attack since he was amassing weapons of mass destruction, even though it was our own government that removed the inspectors from Iraq while they were still actively searching.

Whether the government lied about WMD's or they just didn't have enough intel, they were negligent in getting the right info. It was criminal to say that Saddam had WMD's when there was no proof, the inspectors were still actively searching and we pull them out before they can do their job.

It scares me when I hear about warrantless wire tapping when we have a system in place for the proper checks and balances. Absolute power does not belong to any one branch of the government. A good example of why is the National security letter's used by the FBI. It gave the FBI untethered power to collect information on any US citizen. In a recent audit of only 10% of the letters used so far it was found that the bureau potentially violated the law or agency rules more than 1,000 times while collecting data about domestic phone calls, e-mails and financial transactions in recent years. And according to the patriot act, that information is kept secret. So if they collected information on you illegally, you will never know and you will never be able to correct the problem.

I'm not even going to get into the fact that our government has people "disappeared" to other countries to be interrogated and tortured. That will have to wait for another post

looks that way to me

 

[Charmer]

so for other countries its ok to torture to interrogate people but for Americans its morally wrong....thats basically what you just said

That's not what he said, but Bush and his Gang will tell you that the U.S. Government doesn't torture while hypocritically telling the American people that every other country is wrong for torturing.

 

[andcuriouser]

I'm not even going to get into the fact that our government has people "disappeared" to other countries to be interrogated and tortured. That will have to wait for another post

I remember talking about Maher Arar to an American a while ago, and I was stunned that he hadn't even heard of the case.

 

[All Else Failed]

looks that way to me

No....Bush sends people to other countries where torturing is more common to get tortured so that his hands are clean of any legal backlash.

 

[Maritxu]

That's not what he said, but Bush and his Gang will tell you that the U.S. Government doesn't torture while hypocritically telling the American people that every other country is wrong for torturing.

Exactly (will have to give you rep over here for a political post too, lol)

 

[Tim]

so for other countries its ok to torture to interrogate people but for Americans its morally wrong....thats basically what you just said

No, no, no... it's not right for other countries to do, it's not right for us to do and it sure as hell isn't right (or legal) for our government to pick up people off the streets and have them transported to another country that has no problem with torturing information out of suspects. It breaks international law and the President could be tried for war crimes for doing this.

 

[IntruderLS1]

No, no, no... it's not right for other countries to do, it's not right for us to do and it sure as hell isn't right (or legal) for our government to pick up people off the streets and have them transported to another country that has no problem with torturing information out of suspects. It breaks international law and the President could be tried for war crimes for doing this.

I'm not a big fan of torture, but I'm a little conflicted on drawing such a hard line against it too.

With the rules laid out like they now are, why on Earth will a prisoner ever tell an interrogator anything except "**** you. Where's my hot meal?" Now they don't even have to have a fear of the unknown.

I am also conflicted on the correctness of sending prisoners to allied nations that are known to not stand on torture principals the same way we do. We have become too politically correct in this country to gather information that is critical to have in real time. As of today, we have no choice but to ask others to do the hard, disgusting work for us, that we may be able to save lives. I'm not saying it's right, but what I am saying, is how should the decision be made when you only have bad choices? Innocent people die, or we hurt this guy, and in the process become less innocent ourselves?

I fear we're painting ourselves into a terrible corner here. The more tools we lay down forever, the fewer tools we have available to us to stop these people in the future. The driving forces to lay down our weapons will NEVER EVER be quieted, so appeasement to me seems to be a futile gesture.

I have said many times that I wish for nothing more than the vision of the liberal world to be reality. Who doesn't want peace and love and clean air and food and education for all mankind?? The day guns, and power become obsolete will be a great day indeed. The problem is, that today is not that day. If the good men and women of this world refuse to be more powerful than the evil men and women of this world, then evil will prevail. They are not handicapped by our conscience or our morals. If we refuse to be strong, they will say jump, and our only choice will be death, or the question "How high?"

In this vision of the future, idealism itself would be destroyed.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Great post Intruder. Rep'd.

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm not a big fan of torture, but I'm a little conflicted on drawing such a hard line against it too.

With the rules laid out like they now are, why on Earth will a prisoner ever tell an interrogator anything except "**** you. Where's my hot meal?" Now they don't even have to have a fear of the unknown.

I am also conflicted on the correctness of sending prisoners to allied nations that are known to not stand on torture principals the same way we do. We have become too politically correct in this country to gather information that is critical to have in real time. As of today, we have no choice but to ask others to do the hard, disgusting work for us, that we may be able to save lives. I'm not saying it's right, but what I am saying, is how should the decision be made when you only have bad choices? Innocent people die, or we hurt this guy, and in the process become less innocent ourselves?

I fear we're painting ourselves into a terrible corner here. The more tools we lay down forever, the fewer tools we have available to us to stop these people in the future. The driving forces to lay down our weapons will NEVER EVER be quieted, so appeasement to me seems to be a futile gesture.

I have said many times that I wish for nothing more than the vision of the liberal world to be reality. Who doesn't want peace and love and clean air and food and education for all mankind?? The day guns, and power become obsolete will be a great day indeed. The problem is, that today is not that day. If the good men and women of this world refuse to be more powerful than the evil men and women of this world, then evil will prevail. They are not handicapped by our conscience or our morals. If we refuse to be strong, they will say jump, and our only choice will be death, or the question "How high?"

In this vision of the future, idealism itself would be destroyed.

So we have to crack a few eggs for freedom huh? Come on. Torture is pretty much a obsolete form of information gathering, and unreliable at that.

Who are we supposed to be here? I thought we were America? You know, the country thats supposed to be a role model for freedom and human rights and liberty for everyone to look and get inspiration from? If we sink down to using torture, we are basically turning into the enemy were are trying to "beat". We are turning into monsters.

Torture is illegal.

Torture is non ethical

Torture is unreliable.

Torture is inhumane, and yes, even our enemies have to be treated with dignity, but too many people let their weak lust for vengeance get in the way of reason.

 

[UncleBacon]

if you think that bush is the only american president to torture for what could be vital information you are living in a fantasy land...I promise you that every president before him used these means and every president after him will too...the only reason why its such a big deal now is because so many people are jumping on the I hate bush bandwagon...a lot of people don't even know why they hate bush they just do because its the in thing to do...sure I don't think he's the best president we've had but he's the only president to have the balls to do what he's done and I do think whats going needed to happen...and yes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet...I've got no problems with torture and yes I think as prisoners they have it too good...we are the only country that humanely treats prisoners with the exception of the few that might get tortured for info...do you think that our pow's get treated good? no they get beheaded and or beaten to death...

 

[icecuban]

if you think that bush is the only american president to torture for what could be vital information you are living in a fantasy land...I promise you that every president before him used these means and every president after him will too...the only reason why its such a big deal now is because so many people are jumping on the I hate bush bandwagon...a lot of people don't even know why they hate bush they just do because its the in thing to do...sure I don't think he's the best president we've had but he's the only president to have the balls to do what he's done and I do think whats going needed to happen...and yes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet...I've got no problems with torture and yes I think as prisoners they have it too good...we are the only country that humanely treats prisoners with the exception of the few that might get tortured for info...do you think that our pow's get treated good? no they get beheaded and or beaten to death...

First off, i think a guy who claims to be such a christian, then DOESNT have the balls to turn the other cheek , is a complete hypocrate, and thats the last type of person i want running my country. if he wants to say he has no beliefs, or he believes in the bible except for the whole turning the other cheek part (and every other humane thing), then maybe id understand him a little better. and what balls does he have? u think he's over there fighting? it takes balls to take make a decision that every american was yelling for after 9/11 ("off with their heads!"). thats a complete load, to think it took balls to do what a 5 year old would do, and thats hit back (even if we dont know where or who to hit).
You think cracking eggs will make your omelet? hope you like shitty tasting omelets, because your cracking shitty eggs. you think torture gets clean information? you think its good idea to trust words from someone who we find untrustworthy in the first place? does that make any sense to you? and after many many beatings, most of them would give their own mothers name just to stop the beatings. you think after enough beatings, all of a sudden truth is going to spew from their mouths? now thats living in a fantasy world.
And give me a break, ever heard of the Geneva Convention? You think we pay much attention to that? We go by a little rule that states, whoever didnt sign at that convention, can be tortured. lol, think about this, say u lived in a country where you leader sucked, and your people were being tortured every day. and your leader doesnt want to go sign an agreement that helps your prisoners of war. then your country gets invaded, your neighbor drops your name because he cant stand being beaten anymore, and then you get brought in for beatings, because you wear cloth on your head, and cant speak english that well. And then what would u say, "they should leave their mother land if they dont like it."? Do you not realize that most people who are brought in for severe interigations (thousands and thousands), have absolutly no information, but are still subject to sensory deprevation, electricution, blindfolded and stipped, waterboards, and all different forms of torture, all because u live in a land that has had bad leaders.
And who do you think does the beheadings? normal civilians, like the ones who we beat everyday for information they dont have? u think that its only a few people we beat every day,lol. again, that would be a fantasy world, the reality is, you have a bunch of soldiers, wanting to be home, pissed that these people cant speak english, and hungry for a fight because they are told to act like assholes to whoever "may" have information. If you think that we are so kind and generous to humanity, as you think we are, then im afraid you may be president of fantasy world.
If you want to learn anything about our torture tactics, a good hbo documentary came out not too long ago, called "ghosts of abu ghraib". it has interviews with all the people involved in abu ghraib incedent (except the two, yeah, only two, that got serious jail time), and it also talks about how easy it is for people to torture whoever they are told to torture, no matter who they are, or what they may know, because someone in a higher power tells them to.
Good thing there was someone there who had the balls to break the story, but you know what, theres many other prisons we have like that, were no one will break the story.
I hope HBO isnt too liberal, or left wing, or whatever people call that these days.

I do agree on one thing though, this president isnt much different then the others (its just easy to see his faults, because he speaks worse english then most arabs), which means, all the presidents have sucked, im sorry to say, none of them have balls, none of them put there own necks on the line, and none of them ever do whats right, they just do what they are told by the people around them.

 

[icecuban]

and think about it, u torture some 16 year old for information he does not have, guess what u get in 20 years..... another pissed off bin laden. all it takes is one good intelligent kid, to get beaten down by us, to turn him into a rotten charismatic leader. u think its good to play with that kind of fire?

 

[All Else Failed]

if you think that bush is the only american president to torture for what could be vital information you are living in a fantasy land...I promise you that every president before him used these means and every president after him will too...the only reason why its such a big deal now is because so many people are jumping on the I hate bush bandwagon...a lot of people don't even know why they hate bush they just do because its the in thing to do...sure I don't think he's the best president we've had but he's the only president to have the balls to do what he's done and I do think whats going needed to happen...and yes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet...I've got no problems with torture and yes I think as prisoners they have it too good...we are the only country that humanely treats prisoners with the exception of the few that might get tortured for info...do you think that our pow's get treated good? no they get beheaded and or beaten to death...

I know that Bush isn't the only American president that tortured people...but where is your proof that ever president has used torture?

I think the reason why people are speaking up about this is the fact that torture is barbaric. I really doubt that people that dislike Bush don't know why they dislike him, most people aren't dumb.

If you have no problems with torture, then you clearly do not understand what human rights are. Your mind is clouded by vengeful thoughts against potentially innocent people who have no important info to give, even though they will not get any important info, since torture is LARGELY ineffective. Just ask John McCain.


We are the only country that treats prisoners humanely? You can't be serious.....I can name a dozen countries that treat their prisoners with more respect than us. A human being SHOULD NEVER BE THE MEANS TO AN END. But they're animals and not people, right? They're all guilty until proven innocent....right?


You know, if we torture people, it just shows our enemies that they might as well just torture out guys, seeing as how if we even do it they have no reason not to do it to our guys. So by us torturing people, we're basically saying its fine and dandy to torture our guys. We're supposed to rise above inhumane things like torture.


Also, I have no idea why some of you who are Christians are OK with torture? Ever hear the line (I'm paraphrasing here): "What you do unto your fellow man, you do unto me."? So if you say torturing your fellow man is ok, you're basically slapping jesus in the face. :^/

 

[UncleBacon]

start listing those countries and I'll let you know....I've been around and have seen a lot in my travels over seas...I've even had the pleasure of watching a thief get his hand cut off...I would like to say the country I saw it in but I want to see if its one of the peacefull places you name off

 

[All Else Failed]

You ignored most of my post just to say that?

Sweden, Switzerland, Germany are a few that have better systems in prisons.

 

[dt3]

You ignored most of my post just to say that?

You ignored his ENTIRE post just to say that?

 

[UncleBacon]

not ignored.....I just don't feel like typing out a big speal just yet...I'm at work and I'm tired

 

[All Else Failed]

You ignored his ENTIRE post just to say that?

see edit.




Hey look, a relevant topic! http://www.offtopicz.net/17875-ghosts-abu-ghraib.html