How should they Pretend?

[The Man]

You are hallucinating.
It's always location, location, location.

Of which out in the ocean is not a good place

 

[The Man]

I still think we can reduce that budget...spending has about doubled in the last 11 to 12 years.

 

[Stone]

The point was that you dont have to have large taxes to sustain the peoples needs.


I agree...and with a reduction in spending and not creating new agencies....corruption is less of an issue due to lower opportunity.


profit increase does not equate to paradise...this is not the best location for corps due to our codes.
What you are seeing is us corp profits going back up after after the big fall....fear was rampant ...when you hit bottom you can only go up.

They are not expanding much as we are not the best location.....many times when one expands ..they move it overseas where the codes are much less of a burden....we are just not a corp friendly nation.
Socialism does not create jobs.
Job expansion is the result of more corps...the more corps the higher the demand for a worker as a result wages go up.



No taxes will cause flocking,,,thus expansion....with the economy booming you have more buying...plus you also consider exports..which is very healthy for the host.....{same effect as tourism}




Its not going to change on its own...lets face it
We have to get money flowing somehow...consumer demand occurs with having extra funds available....this happens two ways...lower prices to begin with..via reduced tax burden on business and consumer both...and higher wages ...wages are higher with a lower unemployment rate...this is what reduces corp profits.....also the middle class gets hit hard in a recession due to them having less bargaining power with employers ...but if they are rather a small business owner...they get hit by reduced sales.

The point was that you dont have to have large taxes to sustain the peoples needs.

No...the point being discussed is finding a better tax system. The Bahama's model suits their needs efficiently, but not ours.

I agree...and with a reduction in spending and not creating new agencies....corruption is less of an issue due to lower opportunity.

I'm thinking past government and into the general corruption in/of our society in general.
It's not just government, it's business and labor, too.

profit increase does not equate to paradise.

It does for the business community and as I pointed out......the middle class is taking a big economic hit at the same time profits are rising at record rates and levels.
These are hard facts.

They are not expanding much as we are not the best location

What part of consumer demand didn't you understand?
That's what drives the 'supply' side of the equation supply and demand.

What you are seeing is us corp profits going back up after after the big fall

NO!!!!
Read the graph....they are at record heights, above the big fall.....but wages aren't.

They are not expanding much as we are not the best location.....many times when one expands ..they move it overseas where the codes are much less of a burden....we are just not a corp friendly nation.

Meaningless.
Read the graph again.
And then consider the consumer base has been loosing it's purchasing power as explained in my link.
Of course manufacturing has off shored.
And as consumerism grows, there is a chance of it coming back with the aid of tax breaks, but there has to be potential demand at the same time and the downward spiral on wages is counter-intuitive.

Socialism does not create jobs.

Actually, it does.
Capitalism is value oriented, as in rewarding increased value, economic socialism is need driven with less consideration of the rewarding for increased value.
The jobs created under socialism are 'make work'......often not as productive as those under a capitalist model.

Job expansion is the result of more corps...the more corps the higher the demand for a worker as a result wages go up.

Well yeah.....but no capitalist is going to build a factory unless there is a projected consumer demand for the product. With the middle class ( the consumer base ) declining in wages, expansion just isn't going to be as rosy as your scenario.

And the killer here and now is that Obama will hit the middle class with his health tax and the fed taxes are going up by way of lost deductions even if we don't hit that fiscal cliff.

No taxes will cause flocking,,,thus expansion....with the economy booming you have more buying.

No taxes?......you mean zero taxes, or zero tax increases?
Either way......that just teabag rhetoric, as John would say.
I've shown that the biggest problem resides with the condition of the middle class. Not the status of big business.

We have to get money flowing somehow...consumer demand occurs with having extra funds available.

I have no issue with giving the middle class some new tax breaks. It would put more money in circulation.

this happens two ways...lower prices to begin with..via reduced tax burden on business

Well....I did show that corporate profits were at all time highs and still climbing, so I don't see a valid argument to cut their taxes.

lower prices to begin with..via reduced tax burden on ... consumer ......and higher wages

I can see the logic in that. But at the same time, how much higher on wages....it does drive inflation.

this is what reduces corp profits

Right now, that's irrelevant.....corporate profits have never been higher than now and still increasing.


And as you can see....an island economic model really isn't in the cards for the US.

 

[Stone]

Of which out in the ocean is not a good place

Islands have long been excellent tourist destinations.
Our 50th state is a popular series of islands and one big tourist destination.

Cuba was once very popular until it went Communist.

Location, location, location.
People go to beautiful places for vacations.

There are many beautiful islands with resorts.

 

[Stone]

I still think we can reduce that budget...spending has about doubled in the last 11 to 12 years.

I think it could be done if it weren't for the polarized positions of both parties,
A lot of bloat could be cut.

 

[The Man]

No...the point being discussed is finding a better tax system. The Bahama's model suits their needs efficiently, but not ours.


I'm thinking past government and into the general corruption in/of our society in general.
It's not just government, it's business and labor, too.


It does for the business community and as I pointed out......the middle class is taking a big economic hit at the same time profits are rising at record rates and levels.
These are hard facts.



What part of consumer demand didn't you understand?
That's what drives the 'supply' side of the equation supply and demand.



NO!!!!
Read the graph....they are at record heights, above the big fall.....but wages aren't.



Meaningless.
Read the graph again.
And then consider the consumer base has been loosing it's purchasing power as explained in my link.
Of course manufacturing has off shored.
And as consumerism grows, there is a chance of it coming back with the aid of tax breaks, but there has to be potential demand at the same time and the downward spiral on wages is counter-intuitive.



Actually, it does.
Capitalism is value oriented, as in rewarding increased value, economic socialism is need driven with less consideration of the rewarding for increased value.
The jobs created under socialism are 'make work'......often not as productive as those under a capitalist model.



Well yeah.....but no capitalist is going to build a factory unless there is a projected consumer demand for the product. With the middle class ( the consumer base ) declining in wages, expansion just isn't going to be as rosy as your scenario.

And the killer here and now is that Obama will hit the middle class with his health tax and the fed taxes are going up by way of lost deductions even if we don't hit that fiscal cliff.



No taxes?......you mean zero taxes, or zero tax increases?
Either way......that just teabag rhetoric, as John would say.
I've shown that the biggest problem resides with the condition of the middle class. Not the status of big business.




I have no issue with giving the middle class some new tax breaks. It would put more money in circulation.



Well....I did show that corporate profits were at all time highs and still climbing, so I don't see a valid argument to cut their taxes.



I can see the logic in that. But at the same time, how much higher on wages....it does drive inflation.



Right now, that's irrelevant.....corporate profits have never been higher than now and still increasing.


And as you can see....an island economic model really isn't in the cards for the US.

NO!!!!
Read the graph....they are at record heights, above the big fall.....but wages aren't.

I will address this first.....listen to your agreement stone...you are wanting to increase taxes because they are making profits?
Stone...if they are making more profits...they are paying more tax as a result of increased profits.
If you raise tax you reduce profits.
If you reduce profits...prices go up to compensate...when prices go up...sales go down
When sales go down...profit goes down...when profit goes down....less tax revenue.


Then the govt will want to RAISE them to gain the loss....and the problem has just been compounded.
Socialism does not work.

I'm thinking past government and into the general corruption in/of our society in general.
It's not just government, it's business and labor, too.

Which goes back to opportunity {With the govt anyway}
With business corruption...motive is to cheat...to cheat the govt...with the smaller burden cheating is less of a concern...as the need to cheat is less.

No taxes?......you mean zero taxes, or zero tax increases?
Either way......that just teabag rhetoric, as John would say.
I've shown that the biggest problem resides with the condition of the middle class. Not the status of big business.

It was for demonstration purposes. but let me get back to proposes increases NO NO NO....very bad move.
If we hold steady and have small tax decreases for the corps {they can be very small but they have to exist}...corps will see a trend and be less apt to move across the ocean...also new corps will be willing to set up shop.

A 2 percent decrease in unemployment is very major...we need that two percent as it gets the ball rolling due to an increase in purchases of goods and services...which causes more jobs...and you have your boom.

Well....I did show that corporate profits were at all time highs and still climbing, so I don't see a valid argument to cut their taxes.

Look above

Well yeah.....but no capitalist is going to build a factory unless there is a projected consumer demand for the product. With the middle class ( the consumer base ) declining in wages, expansion just isn't going to be as rosy as your scenario.

They build all the time...just else where due to our codes...then ship it in.

I have no issue with giving the middle class some new tax breaks. It would put more money in circulation.

I fully agree as more money to spend creates jobs....just a pretty decent cut here could be enough to get that ball rolling.

I can see the logic in that. But at the same time, how much higher on wages....it does drive inflation.

True...but what is important is the worker has more bargaining power.
Also...reduced need for entitlement spending as there are less unemployed allows a further reduction in taxes to off set that inflation...either way we have less unemployed....better for the economy.

Right now, that's irrelevant.....corporate profits have never been higher than now and still increasing.

They are higher in part as reduced leverage by the worker...also with when we bottomed in this recession..corps had to restructure ...as a result many middle income mgt jobs were gone...they were forced to become more efficient...thus some of the increase is due to more efficiency.

And the killer here and now is that Obama will hit the middle class with his health tax and the fed taxes are going up by way of lost deductions even if we don't hit that fiscal cliff.

I agree...but lets apply that even further...any time anyone is hit...we have the same result.
Also...many of the rich are who gives the middle class jobs.
IMO to much emphasis is on the middle class in the role of the economy.
Its the entire picture....tax is just a way of moving money from one location to another....the source has to recoup back that loss....thats what is fucked up about it...you now aim your product to appeal where your tax dollar ended up...{cause of low end junk}

Actually, it does.
Capitalism is value oriented, as in rewarding increased value, economic socialism is need driven with less consideration of the rewarding for increased value.
The jobs created under socialism are 'make work'......often not as productive as those under a capitalist model.

Jobs are not created by shifting money from wealth to lower income with the govt doing the transfer....this burden is in part responsible for the US not being attractive to set up shop in and going across the ocean.

 

[The Man]

Look at it in terms of GDP
The more stuff moved the higher the GDP
The Higher the GDP the more revenue gained

Just for easy figuring lets say the GDP was 10 trillion and govt revenues were 4 trillion.{needed} and gained}
Stunting the GDP to 8 trillion{ by burden fees and tax} ...the govt now has to increase tax and fees to have that gain
That increase further stunts the GDP.
This applies no matter where you take the money from...the rich the poor or the middle class.

 

[The Man]

Anyway its 330 and I have to plaster my ass to the seat early...will argue later

 

[Stone]

I will address this first.....listen to your agreement stone...you are wanting to increase taxes because they are making profits?
Stone...if they are making more profits...they are paying more tax as a result of increased profits.
If you raise tax you reduce profits.
If you reduce profits...prices go up to compensate...when prices go up...sales go down
When sales go down...profit goes down...when profit goes down....less tax revenue.


Then the govt will want to RAISE them to gain the loss....and the problem has just been compounded.
Socialism does not work.




Which goes back to opportunity {With the govt anyway}
With business corruption...motive is to cheat...to cheat the govt...with the smaller burden cheating is less of a concern...as the need to cheat is less.




It was for demonstration purposes. but let me get back to proposes increases NO NO NO....very bad move.
If we hold steady and have small tax decreases for the corps {they can be very small but they have to exist}...corps will see a trend and be less apt to move across the ocean...also new corps will be willing to set up shop.

A 2 percent decrease in unemployment is very major...we need that two percent as it gets the ball rolling due to an increase in purchases of goods and services...which causes more jobs...and you have your boom.




Look above


They build all the time...just else where due to our codes...then ship it in.



I fully agree as more money to spend creates jobs....just a pretty decent cut here could be enough to get that ball rolling.



True...but what is important is the worker has more bargaining power.
Also...reduced need for entitlement spending as there are less unemployed allows a further reduction in taxes to off set that inflation...either way we have less unemployed....better for the economy.



They are higher in part as reduced leverage by the worker...also with when we bottomed in this recession..corps had to restructure ...as a result many middle income mgt jobs were gone...they were forced to become more efficient...thus some of the increase is due to more efficiency.


I agree...but lets apply that even further...any time anyone is hit...we have the same result.
Also...many of the rich are who gives the middle class jobs.
IMO to much emphasis is on the middle class in the role of the economy.
Its the entire picture....tax is just a way of moving money from one location to another....the source has to recoup back that loss....thats what is fucked up about it...you now aim your product to appeal where your tax dollar ended up...{cause of low end junk}



Jobs are not created by shifting money from wealth to lower income with the govt doing the transfer....this burden is in part responsible for the US not being attractive to set up shop in and going across the ocean.

I will address this first.....listen to your agreement stone...you are wanting to increase taxes because they are making profits?
Stone...if they are making more profits...they are paying more tax as a result of increased profits.
If you raise tax you reduce profits.

I'll address this first......I didn't argue for a tax increase, but I didn't argue against one.
The point was with rising profits being at record highs, corporations don't need income tax cuts to improve their business models.
At the same time, they obviously don't need a significant tax increase that upsets their business models.

Then the govt will want to RAISE them to gain the loss....and the problem has just been compounded.

I haven't a clue as to what you are referring to. Do you?

Socialism does not work.

I'm not arguing to socialize anything, the discussion is about taxation.
Do you know what socialism is in the economic sense?

Which goes back to opportunity {With the govt anyway}
With business corruption...motive is to cheat...to cheat the govt...with the smaller burden cheating is less of a concern...as the need to cheat is less.

You aren't thinking straight.....I really do mean an all encompassing corruption to benefit the 'self'.

It was for demonstration purposes.

Then it was meaningless.

If we hold steady and have small tax decreases for the corps {they can be very small but they have to exist}...corps will see a trend and be less apt to move across the ocean...also new corps will be willing to set up shop.

The biggest reason for offshoring is labor costs.
Now you're offering up a bizarre plan for subsidizing labor parity.
See how complicated it becomes.
It would be better to give new business starts, incentives than all of existing and successful corporations already running at record high profit levels.

A 2 percent decrease in unemployment is very major

Are you now praising Obama ( )

.we need that two percent as it gets the ball rolling due to an increase in purchases of goods and services

We've had more than a 2% improvement and analysts call it sluggish.

Look above

OK....I posted> "Well....I did show that corporate profits were at all time highs and still climbing, so I don't see a valid argument to cut their taxes. "
Increasing consumerism is a fast track to job creation in the present scenario. What don't you see in that?

They build all the time...just else where due to our codes...then ship it in.

I suspect you don't understand the relationship of supply and demand to industrial growth.

They are higher in part as reduced leverage by the worker

Layoffs and restructuring had the greatest impacts in efficiency.

I agree...but lets apply that even further...any time anyone is hit...we have the same result.

Any tax at all has an impact....the problem is how to run a country on on a specified budget.
Bush cut taxes too much on the wealthy and scheduled the cuts too far in advance while waging a war and then butted up against an economic crash. Add in rising energy costs and the middle class took what seems like an almost unrecoverable hit.
Now they are being hit again with new taxes.
All the while corporate profits soar.

Also...many of the rich are who gives the middle class jobs.

Rhetoric.
Not worth my time responding to.

IMO to much emphasis is on the middle class in the role of the economy.

They are the consumer base.....with out expanding consumption there isn't any reason for there to be increased production based on anything other than the birth rate.
That's really a pretty simple concept.

.tax is just a way of moving money from one location to another

.

the source has to recoup back that loss....thats what is fucked up about it...you now aim your product to appeal where your tax dollar ended up.

Agreed, but a non sequitur to your above statement.

Jobs are not created by shifting money from wealth to lower income with the govt doing the transfer

Nor does trickle down economics create jobs in the current scenario.
We are seeing money piling up at fantastic rates in the 1% class and corporate profits rise at record rates.......and job creation lags.....the current tax equation is out of kilter and magnifying the situation to your suggestions illogical.
This is not in support of Obama....it's what is actually happening while middle class wages decline.




I probably won't be able to respond much today.....but go ahead anyway

 

[Stone]

Look at it in terms of GDP
The more stuff moved the higher the GDP
The Higher the GDP the more revenue gained

Just for easy figuring lets say the GDP was 10 trillion and govt revenues were 4 trillion.{needed} and gained}
Stunting the GDP to 8 trillion{ by burden fees and tax} ...the govt now has to increase tax and fees to have that gain
That increase further stunts the GDP.
This applies no matter where you take the money from...the rich the poor or the middle class.

Look at it in terms of GDP

Let's not.

I'd rather look at actual economic conditions the US is experiencing.

 

[Stone]

Bye bye

 

[Johnfromokc]

 

[Johnfromokc]

Here's a suggestion:

 

[Alien Allen]

tax, tax, tax

is that all ya got?

 

[Johnfromokc]

tax, tax, tax

is that all ya got?

What exactly should be cut? We have the lowest taxes in our lifetimes - so yes, taxes have to go up in addition to any cuts.

 

[Minor Axis]

What exactly should be cut? We have the lowest taxes in our lifetimes - so yes, taxes have to go up in addition to any cuts.

Easy to argue that the Bush Tax cuts added hugely to the problem, in addition to the Credit Card wars Bush launched. What I find interesting is that all parties calling a return to responsibility (paying our bills) as going over the fiscal cliff. I acknowledge that it could cause us to slip into recession, but we are in a spot where it is time to put up or shut up. There will be pain.

Last I heard the GOP is holding out on return to the to Clinton tax rate for those making more than $250k/year. Now you can ask yourself, what is most important to them? And why is the Tea Party made up of mostly those not in the 1%, gun-ho for protection to those who don't need it financially? It's puzzling.

 

[Alien Allen]

What exactly should be cut? We have the lowest taxes in our lifetimes - so yes, taxes have to go up in addition to any cuts.

I have no problem with most of those tax increases but would like to see a sunset clause on some of them

The problem is there is so much crap that can be cut that never gets addressed. Many of it ear marks that are a few hundred thousand here and a few hundred there that never get cut. How about we treat things like in our own family budget. Start by eliminating all the non essential stuff and then put a freeze on the rest for a while.

Neither party is serious about cuts though

So why should anybody want to give them more to spend until they come up with a viable plan. And that includes immediate cuts and not the crap where some won't take effect for x number of years. Otherwise it is like giving an alcoholic another drink with the promise the alcoholic will quit the next day. Then the next day comes and the same process repeats itself. Groundhog Day

 

[Minor Axis]

I have no problem with most of those tax increases but would like to see a sunset clause on some of them

The problem is there is so much crap that can be cut that never gets addressed. Many of it ear marks that are a few hundred thousand here and a few hundred there that never get cut. How about we treat things like in our own family budget. Start by eliminating all the non essential stuff and then put a freeze on the rest for a while.

Neither party is serious about cuts though

So why should anybody want to give them more to spend until they come up with a viable plan. And that includes immediate cuts and not the crap where some won't take effect for x number of years. Otherwise it is like giving an alcoholic another drink with the promise the alcoholic will quit the next day. Then the next day comes and the same process repeats itself. Groundhog Day

Maybe that is a problem with our system. As soon as someone executes pain, they will be voted out for the next big fibber who makes better promiese?

 

[The Man]

What exactly should be cut? We have the lowest taxes in our lifetimes - so yes, taxes have to go up in addition to any cuts.

Govt spending has increased 40 times since 1960
Lets face it john...after adjustment for inflation and population growth...we still have a major increase.

The problem is spending john ....not lack of tax.

How is more tax going to fix the economy?
You want to increase taxes on us while we are just now getting our heads out of the water again?
Explain to the tea billies how this will rescue the economy

 

[Johnfromokc]

The problem is there is so much crap that can be cut that never gets addressed.

Like what? How about a spending cut wish list.