How should they Pretend?

[Stone]

A 40% reduction in social services at a time when more and more of the middle class is being pushed toward support just isn't going to fly.

 

[The Man]

Sure they wont buy it..as there are no increases..I merely had the proposition of slowly reducing spend...in other words here is how much you get...use it accordingly.

I am all for some form of tax reform...which aims at reductions.
Lower wages occur with an increase in social spending as artificially adjusts the cost of living.

Take a single mother for instance....food aid child care aid housing aid medical aid...this can easily top over a grand a month.
Then in April give her 4 grand back in taxes.....the reason she can work for these low wages is due to all the aid.
Just for radical demonstration if all aid is halted{not that I am suggesting such...but just for demonstration}
She would require double the wage.....this means she will leave a job and hunt for a better one...Why leave a low paying job to lose all the benefits and make less or receive the same?

The lower wages are in part the result of the aid itself
Example if we gave 50k in aid {again radical just for demonstration}....wages will go to practically nothing.
To make it worse the price of goods and services hits the sky as its the larger money makers supplying the 50k via tax...and redistribution back in aid.

Also to consider during a recession people are willing to work for less as jobs are harder to find...which also causes a wage drop.
During a boom one can walk off a job and go to another...higher wages are paid due to a lower employee desperation.

 

[Alien Allen]

TM part of the reason your figures are so high compared to 1960 is the massive increase in govt employees at all levels including state and local

It will take years to get that under control and there has been nothing proposed on a federal level to address it.. On state and local levels there has been some headway

The best one could hope for is a freeze probably

I have heard most of the liberal cuts are planned for several years down the road and that if true will accomplish nothing other than to make the cliff higher and eventually there being no way to back off from it.

On a local level all one has to do is look at the silliness going on in Detroit. The liberals and their union backers are making a mockery of things and I am gonna bet that it will lead to bankruptcy. The feds are playing the same game.

 

[The Man]

Bahamas paradise?

Here is how they do it

The economy has a very competitive tax regime. The government derives its revenue from import tariffs, license fees, property and stamp taxes, but there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, value-added tax (VAT), or wealth tax. Payroll taxes fund social insurance benefits and amount to 3.9% paid by the employee and 5.9% paid by the employer.[35] In 2010, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%.[36] Authorities are trying to increase tax compliance and collection in the wake of the global crisis. Inflation has been moderate, averaging 3.7 percent between 2006 and 2008.

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By the terms of GDP per capita, the Bahamas is one of the richest countries in the Americas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bahamas

 

[Alien Allen]

one thing that is certain is the fairy tale both parties are trying to feed us

you can not take the rich and get out of this problem

you can not improve the economy enough to get out of this problem

 

[The Man]

TM part of the reason your figures are so high compared to 1960 is the massive increase in govt employees at all levels including state and local

It will take years to get that under control and there has been nothing proposed on a federal level to address it.. On state and local levels there has been some headway

The best one could hope for is a freeze probably

I have heard most of the liberal cuts are planned for several years down the road and that if true will accomplish nothing other than to make the cliff higher and eventually there being no way to back off from it.

On a local level all one has to do is look at the silliness going on in Detroit. The liberals and their union backers are making a mockery of things and I am gonna bet that it will lead to bankruptcy. The feds are playing the same game.

The best one could hope for is a freeze probably

Its is an idea...say freeze any growth,,,at least it wont be getting worse that way...then say shave off 5 to 10 percent of spending...it should be tolerable and a step in the right direction.

I dont think we could do an actual "freeze" of all agencies

 

[Accountable]

I think a spending freeze would be a good start. This smoke screen about taxing the rich really gets on my nerves.
Dems say it is nothing to the rich but of great benefit to the gov't.
Repubs say it is a drop in the deficit bucket but would be devastating to the economy.
The truth is that it would hardly be noticed by the rich, and would do so little good to the gov't as to be a useless gesture. But they would rather stir up dust & useless drama than actually do anything.

 

[The Man]

The reps have proposed freezes in the past and it always gets knocked down.
Obama in the past had proposed freezes as well..but it didnt go over as the dems had control...which is odd as the dems pretty much will do anything he wants...but actually will not work with him on reducing spending.
I still hate Obamas socialistic ideals...but after the big stimulus he wanted to reduce spending...Thing is his own pet projects got in the way...he has since given up on reduced spending and does act very much like a democrat now

 

[Stone]

Bahamas paradise?

Here is how they do it

The economy has a very competitive tax regime. The government derives its revenue from import tariffs, license fees, property and stamp taxes, but there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, value-added tax (VAT), or wealth tax. Payroll taxes fund social insurance benefits and amount to 3.9% paid by the employee and 5.9% paid by the employer.[35] In 2010, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%.[36] Authorities are trying to increase tax compliance and collection in the wake of the global crisis. Inflation has been moderate, averaging 3.7 percent between 2006 and 2008.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

By the terms of GDP per capita, the Bahamas is one of the richest countries in the Americas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bahamas

Interesting but irrelevant.....the economic structure of the Bahamas is too unlike the US and actually depends largely upon tourism .

from the Wiki article:

The Bahamas is largely an import, service economy. There are about 110 U.S.-affiliated businesses operating in The Bahamas, and most are associated with tourism and banking. With few domestic resources and little industry, The Bahamas imports nearly all its food and manufactured goods from the United States. American goods and services tend to be favored by Bahamians due to cultural similarities and heavy exposure to American advertising.

Nice place to live.

 

[Accountable]

I'm convinced that the repubs wouldn't be screaming so loud about cutting spending if they thought the dems would cooperate. It's easy to talk big if you know you'll never be in that situation, y'know?

 

[The Man]

Yes tourism.
But note overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%
Which is how the govt received its funds and still supplied the needs of the people.

 

[The Man]

I'm convinced that the repubs wouldn't be screaming so loud about cutting spending if they thought the dems would cooperate. It's easy to talk big if you know you'll never be in that situation, y'know?

I know what you mean...but in general they argue to reduce it.
IMO what screwed us this go around is that Obama was a dem rather than a rep...
When his next four years is up...I just might be able to say at least he tried...he did try a couple years ago..but the dems shot him down..,,,which is ok...but then he just concentrated on his pet project.

 

[The Man]

Yes tourism.
But note overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%
Which is how the govt received its funds and still supplied the needs of the people.

Let me expand upon that stone

we have below from the link
-------------------------------------------------
The government derives its revenue from import tariffs, license fees, property and stamp taxes, but there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, value-added tax (VAT), or wealth tax. Payroll taxes fund social insurance benefits and amount to 3.9% paid by the employee and 5.9% paid by the employer.[35] In 2010, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%

--------------------------------------------------------------------

lets look at how they obtain funds

import tariffs, license fees, property and stamp taxes

Which is essentially coming from the citizens themselves ....{above}

and import tariffs....both tourists and citizens are affected...as tourists also use the products.

per link below
but there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, value-added tax (VAT), or wealth tax.

Which if happened here...corps would flock...and the rich would keep their money here as well...buy and sell freely as there is no gains tax...also no value added tax

per link below

Payroll taxes fund social insurance benefits and amount to 3.9% paid by the employee and 5.9% paid by the employer

Which would be coming from the citizens.

tourists spending does not involve property tax license fees nor stamp tax but does contribute to the import tariff somewhat

overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%
Effectively taking care of peoples need on about a sixth of GDP.....spending is low but yet supplies the needs of the people as well as maintain enough "beauty" by the govt to draw tourists.

One thing for sure...if we had that tax system it would be attractive for tourists as well

 

[Stone]

Yes tourism.
But note overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%
Which is how the govt received its funds and still supplied the needs of the people.

Still an apples to oranges comparison.

Their economy hasn't carried the costs of military campaigns that the US has, it hasn't had the unionization that leverages social programs, it's economic infrastructure more stable since it's not a manufacturing/industrialization based economy and it's jobs, being tourist oriented, aren't under pressure of being outsourced. So....there just aren't going to be identical social programs in place of equal relative sizes.
They really do have a nice set up.....but with out much of an industrial economy......not having corporate tax, capital gains tax, or value-added tax (VAT) becomes a minor issue in regards to tax revenue.
To become like them, we'd need to focus on tourism and let's face it, Missouri isn't a natural nor nation attraction

Their standards of living is obviously different with per capita income in the US being about twice as much
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/country_profiles/1154642.stm
http://bber.unm.edu/econ/us-pci.htm

You need to be comparing similar economies of similar industrialized nations to compare revenue generation, not extremes.

 

[Stone]

Let me expand upon that stone

we have below from the link
-------------------------------------------------
The government derives its revenue from import tariffs, license fees, property and stamp taxes, but there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, value-added tax (VAT), or wealth tax. Payroll taxes fund social insurance benefits and amount to 3.9% paid by the employee and 5.9% paid by the employer.[35] In 2010, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%

--------------------------------------------------------------------

lets look at how they obtain funds

import tariffs, license fees, property and stamp taxes

Which is essentially coming from the citizens themselves ....{above}

and import tariffs....both tourists and citizens are affected...as tourists also use the products.

per link below
but there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, value-added tax (VAT), or wealth tax.

Which if happened here...corps would flock...and the rich would keep their money here as well...buy and sell freely as there is no gains tax...also no value added tax

per link below

Payroll taxes fund social insurance benefits and amount to 3.9% paid by the employee and 5.9% paid by the employer

Which would be coming from the citizens.

tourists spending does not involve property tax license fees nor stamp tax but does contribute to the import tariff somewhat

overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 17.2%
Effectively taking care of peoples need on about a sixth of GDP.....spending is low but yet supplies the needs of the people as well as maintain enough "beauty" by the govt to draw tourists.

One thing for sure...if we had that tax system it would be attractive for tourists as well

One thing for sure...if we had that tax system it would be attractive for tourists as well

Fallacy there.
It's not the tax system that attracts the tourists to the Bahamas......it's the location.


As to the rest above.....that works in a Bahama style economy because it is tourist oriented.

 

[The Man]

Still an apples to oranges comparison.

Their economy hasn't carried the costs of military campaigns that the US has, it hasn't had the unionization that leverages social programs, it's economic infrastructure more stable since it's not a manufacturing/industrialization based economy and it's jobs, being tourist oriented, aren't under pressure of being outsourced. So....there just aren't going to be identical social programs in place of equal relative sizes.
They really do have a nice set up.....but with out much of an industrial economy......not having corporate tax, capital gains tax, or value-added tax (VAT) becomes a minor issue in regards to tax revenue.
To become like them, we'd need to focus on tourism and let's face it, Missouri isn't a natural nor nation attraction

Their standards of living is obviously different with per capita income in the US being about twice as much
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/country_profiles/1154642.stm
http://bber.unm.edu/econ/us-pci.htm

You need to be comparing similar economies of similar industrialized nations to compare revenue generation, not extremes.

it's economic infrastructure more stable since it's not a manufacturing/industrialization based economy and it's jobs, being tourist oriented, aren't under pressure of being outsourced

Exactly...as there are no corp taxes and the employer payroll tax is a scant 5.9 percent...if we had the system here...it would also be a corp paradise....they would flock
Then we could be a "junk producing nation" providing countless jobs ....these workers buy our junk at these very low prices as they are cheap to produce.
The good news is with so many jobs...and not enough workers...the individual will be able to walk out of one junk factory and into another in the same day....or go in and ask for a raise and get it.
yes.....an individual ...his very own negotiator....with a shortage of workers one can demand more wages...thus wages will have been achieved as they should.
Its win win for america.

They really do have a nice set up.....but with out much of an industrial economy......not having corporate tax, capital gains tax, or value-added tax (VAT) becomes a minor issue in regards to tax revenue.

Its a resource issue ...for the lack of industry...small islands are not a good supply of coal oil electricity....then there is communications as well.
They already rely heavily on imports to maintain supplies.

To become like them, we'd need to focus on tourism and let's face it, Missouri isn't a natural nor nation attraction

We have our deer,raccoon, possum, skunk ,rabbit,owl ,hawk, eagle and more....so much to see
Woods...I mean forests....Rivers...and lots of creeks...I mean mini rivers.
Sure beats looking at sand and the ocean all day......."get away from the ocean come to missouri"

Their standards of living is obviously different with per capita income in the US being about twice as much

yes as all our taxes and socialization causes inflation....and you must also remember stone..the money you get is all yours..you pay for 4 percent out of your check and its done.

Still an apples to oranges comparison.

The entire point...as our system is failing.

Their economy hasn't carried the costs of military campaigns that the US has

Who would want to attack the tax haven?...No world leader as that is where they keep their own money....Tax havens are always in peace

 

[The Man]

Fallacy there.
It's not the tax system that attracts the tourists to the Bahamas......it's the location.


As to the rest above.....that works in a Bahama style economy because it is tourist oriented.

Its actually the people....the culture...being out in the ocean is not an ideal location for tourism.
Its the people that are tourist friendly....being very nice as to get your business rather than the next guy getting it.
If you think about it....there are better tourist attractions based upon location,

In other words it was designed to be a tourist attraction ,,,,pretty smart thinking...being they have absolutely nothing to offer other than great hospitality.

 

[Stone]

Exactly...as there are no corp taxes and the employer payroll tax is a scant 5.9 percent...if we had the system here...it would also be a corp paradise....they would flock
Then we could be a "junk producing nation" providing countless jobs ....these workers buy our junk at these very low prices as they are cheap to produce.
The good news is with so many jobs...and not enough workers...the individual will be able to walk out of one junk factory and into another in the same day....or go in and ask for a raise and get it.
yes.....an individual ...his very own negotiator....with a shortage of workers one can demand more wages...thus wages will have been achieved as they should.
Its win win for america.



Its a resource issue ...for the lack of industry...small islands are not a good supply of coal oil electricity....then there is communications as well.
They already rely heavily on imports to maintain supplies.


We have our deer,raccoon, possum, skunk ,rabbit,owl ,hawk, eagle and more....so much to see
Woods...I mean forests....Rivers...and lots of creeks...I mean mini rivers.
Sure beats looking at sand and the ocean all day......."get away from the ocean come to missouri"


yes as all our taxes and socialization causes inflation....and you must also remember stone..the money you get is all yours..you pay for 4 percent out of your check and its done.


The entire point...as our system is failing.

Who would want to attack the tax haven?...No world leader as that is where they keep their own money....Tax havens are always in peace

Amusing......

The entire point...as our system is failing.

Largely from corruption and political dogma from right and left wing politicians.

There no reason to think your tourist scenario would fare any better even if it could generate equivalent tax revenue.


BTW, right now corporate profits are increasing at record rates, so it's already a corporate paradise as far as profits go.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/06/01/493870/corporate-profits-skyrocket/?mobile=nc

Corporations just aren't expanding much, and job creation lags horribly compared to corporate profits.
So cutting taxes on them further isn't the solution for expansion.....it's increased consumerism at a time when wages are declining.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/11/15/174797/us-workers-endure-lost-decade.html

It's the middle class in default that's the problem.
If there is no increased need nor any significant need in the near future, drawing in new manufacturing capability for increased productivity is illogical from a capitalist pov.
It's a supply and demand scenario......we need increased consumer demands to drive industrial growth at this time, and your island economic model isn't appropriate.

 

[Stone]

Its actually the people....the culture...being out in the ocean is not an ideal location for tourism.
Its the people that are tourist friendly....being very nice as to get your business rather than the next guy getting it.
If you think about it....there are better tourist attractions based upon location,

In other words it was designed to be a tourist attraction ,,,,pretty smart thinking...being they have absolutely nothing to offer other than great hospitality.

You are hallucinating.
It's always location, location, location.

 

[The Man]

Amusing......



Largely from corruption and political dogma from right and left wing politicians.

There no reason to think your tourist scenario would fare any better even if it could generate equivalent tax revenue.


BTW, right now corporate profits are increasing at record rates, so it's already a corporate paradise as far as profits go.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/06/01/493870/corporate-profits-skyrocket/?mobile=nc

Corporations just aren't expanding much, and job creation lags horribly compared to corporate profits.
So cutting taxes on them further isn't the solution for expansion.....it's increased consumerism at a time when wages are declining.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/11/15/174797/us-workers-endure-lost-decade.html

It's the middle class in default that's the problem.
If there is no increased need nor any significant need in the near future, drawing in new manufacturing capability for increased productivity is illogical from a capitalist pov.
It's a supply and demand scenario......we need increased consumer demands to drive industrial growth at this time, and your island economic model isn't appropriate.

There no reason to think your tourist scenario would fare any better even if it could generate equivalent tax revenue.

The point was that you dont have to have large taxes to sustain the peoples needs.

Largely from corruption and political dogma from right and left wing politicians.

I agree...and with a reduction in spending and not creating new agencies....corruption is less of an issue due to lower opportunity.

BTW, right now corporate profits are increasing at record rates, so it's already a corporate paradise as far as profits go.

profit increase does not equate to paradise...this is not the best location for corps due to our codes.
What you are seeing is us corp profits going back up after after the big fall....fear was rampant ...when you hit bottom you can only go up.

Corporations just aren't expanding much, and job creation lags horribly compared to corporate profits.

They are not expanding much as we are not the best location.....many times when one expands ..they move it overseas where the codes are much less of a burden....we are just not a corp friendly nation.
Socialism does not create jobs.
Job expansion is the result of more corps...the more corps the higher the demand for a worker as a result wages go up.

So cutting taxes on them further isn't the solution for expansion.....it's increased consumerism at a time when wages are declining.

No taxes will cause flocking,,,thus expansion....with the economy booming you have more buying...plus you also consider exports..which is very healthy for the host.....{same effect as tourism}

It's the middle class in default that's the problem.
If there is no increased need nor any significant need in the near future, drawing in new manufacturing capability for increased productivity is illogical from a capitalist pov.
It's a supply and demand scenario......we need increased consumer demands to drive industrial growth at this time, and your island economic model isn't appropriate.

Its not going to change on its own...lets face it
We have to get money flowing somehow...consumer demand occurs with having extra funds available....this happens two ways...lower prices to begin with..via reduced tax burden on business and consumer both...and higher wages ...wages are higher with a lower unemployment rate...this is what reduces corp profits.....also the middle class gets hit hard in a recession due to them having less bargaining power with employers ...but if they are rather a small business owner...they get hit by reduced sales.