God does things just for me

[Dana]

Everything does not have to be a debate.

 

[Misssy2]

God may not be everyones forte but why can't someone say something about God without a thread turning into a 10 page debate?

LOL! Although, this is the debate section....I kinda forgot that myself.
I was only sharing some hope I had...tried to pick the appropriate section....LOL...didn't realize that it was the debate area.

 

[edgray]

Everything does not have to be a debate.

No it doesn't, and there are plenty of other sections in this forum for those that do not with to debate anything.

Religion is a fascinating subject, and with so many different ways to view it, a debate is inevitable.

I don't see the problem.

 

[BornReady]

Dana many of us enjoy debating. We enjoy the intellectual stimulation of it, and it's interesting hearing other's viewpoints on subjects, perhaps even learn a thing of two. And, this being the debate section, it's the right place.

If you don't want to debate, don't come in.

:thumbup I agree. We're debating in the debate section. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[sexysadie]

Not necessarily. I know Christians who believe God exists but don't claim to know he does. And I don't believe God exists but don't claim to know this for sure. Imo, this makes me open minded not a hypocrite.

When you think about it, there is really very little we can know with certainty. Descartes summed it up pretty well with... I think therefore I am.

Doll...I'm sorry to disagree with you again but I'm afraid you've left me little choice. There is no such thing as a christian who only believes in God part time...imo a person who takes on such a cowardly stand is indeed a hypocrite. What else would you call a person who prays to a God they 'think' is out there? If I didn't 'know' it for a fact then I would keep searching until I found an answer...and if that answer turned out to be 'maybe'....I wouldnt waste my time.

 

[sexysadie]

No it doesn't, and there are plenty of other sections in this forum for those that do not with to debate anything.

Religion is a fascinating subject, and with so many different ways to view it, a debate is inevitable.

I don't see the problem.

Debating broadens the mind...and that's always a good thing.

 

[edgray]

Debating broadens the mind...and that's always a good thing.

Exactly. And I've learnt a lot from people on here.

 

[BornReady]

There is no such thing as a christian who only believes in God part time...imo a person who takes on such a cowardly stand is indeed a hypocrite.

I don't believe God exists full time. But I recognize this is something I can't know for sure. So does this make me a hypocrite? Would you rather I be close minded and say I know God doesn't exist? Imo, close mindedness in a Christian is no more attractive than close mindedness in an atheist. If it was clear cut whether God existed or not then there wouldn't be debates about it.

 

[sexysadie]

I don't believe God exists full time. But I recognize this is something I can't know for sure. So does this make me a hypocrite? Would you rather I be close minded and say I know God doesn't exist? Imo, close mindedness in a Christian is no more attractive than close mindedness in an atheist. If it was clear cut whether God existed or not then there wouldn't be debates about it.

Of course there will always be those who question whether or not God exists, and I think that's a healthy attitude to have, one I'm certain God would respect as much as I do. Are you calling yourself a christian? Do you pray to a God you're not sure even exists?

 

[BornReady]

Are you calling yourself a christian? Do you pray to a God you're not sure even exists?

No, I'm not a Christian. I just don't think you should criticize Christians for being open minded. I happen to think that is a desirable trait. I'm not trying to pick on you, just giving my opinion.

 

[sexysadie]

No, I'm not a Christian. I just don't think you should criticize Christians for being open minded. I happen to think that is a desirable trait. I'm not trying to pick on you, just giving my opinion.

Then I'm not saying that you're a hypocrite, am I? I happen to respect your opinions. You don't seem to be grasping my point here. A person can't call themselves a christian if they don't believe in God. Think about it for a moment. I'm not criticizing anybody for being open minded, I think that's a fabulous trait.....but when I hear the word 'christian'....I think about somebody who believes in God, somebody who prays to him daily......now how can one do that if they don't believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that he exists? Now I'm nt gonna sit here and tell you that I've never questioned God, because I have.....but only His motives....not Him. It would be like calling yourself a vegetarian with a great big steak hanging out of your mouth..lol..it just doesn't make sense.

 

[brieze]

Now I'm nt gonna sit here and tell you that I've never questioned God, because I have.....but only His motives....not Him.

Were you raised in the religion that you're a part of now?

 

[sexysadie]

Were you raised in the religion that you're a part of now?

I have 4 brothers and 2 sisters and every Sunday morning we'd head off to church and then sunday school by my mother...she would only attend church on special occasions like christmas or easter. I faithfully went along with this routine every week until I got older and found my own voice. Truth is, I hated church, the people there were snobby and uptight and they looked down on anybody who was in any way different than them.....meaning if you didn't own a fur coat or drive a big fancy expensive car like they did. Yes, I was brought up in a home where we were introduced to God at an early age, but I left the church and something happened in my life that made me turn my back on God and anything anywhere related to Him. I spent several years questioning my very existence and my life as I knew it was over. God woke me up again....I hit rock bottom and then one day was forced to get down on my knees and ask Him 'why'!!!! That day was the turning point in my life, the day I stopped going downhill and pulled myself up.....with His help. I truly believe that without His love I wouldn't be here right now talking with you nice people, Now you can call me naive or gullible or even crazy, but what I experienced was as real as anything has a right to be.....and while I still have moments when I question Him.....I know that somehow, He'll show me the way.

 

[brieze]

I'm not into name calling. Your answer makes sense though. I've been in and listened to quite a few debates about god. And I've noticed that the people who adamantly refuse to admit they might be wrong on God's existence are usually the one's raised with those beliefs. Be it religious or atheist. My theory is it's psychological. No one like to have the foundations their life was built on being attacked, and they'll defend them even if it's illogical. My theory at least lol.

 

[sexysadie]

I'm not into name calling. Your answer makes sense though. I've been in and listened to quite a few debates about god. And I've noticed that the people who adamantly refuse to admit they might be wrong on God's existence are usually the one's raised with those beliefs. Be it religious or atheist. My theory is it's psychological. No one like to have the foundations their life was built on being attacked, and they'll defend them even if it's illogical. My theory at least lol.

While I respect the fact that you have a theory, I have to again disagree with it...in my case anyway. My family used to relate God with the church.....and if you didn't attend one then you were outside of God's radar because as far as they were concened, church was the only place He could find you and visa versa. I don't believe that God was anywhere near the church that I was forced to attend as a little girl, the God I know and love would have nothing to do with a place where the less fortunate were turned away. I became the person I am today in spite of what I was brought up to believe. That being said, I agree with you to a certain extent....there are people out there who fear the unknown....so they tend to stick with what they've been taught rather than make their own assumptions. I'm not one of these people.

 

[BornReady]

when I hear the word 'christian'....I think about somebody who believes in God, somebody who prays to him daily......now how can one do that if they don't believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that he exists?

You don't have to claim to know the unknowable to be a Christian. Christianity only requires you believe in God. You can believe something with all your heart and still not know it. In fact, if you know something then you don't believe it, you know it.

There are two possibilities. Either God doesn't exist in which case all those who claim to know he exists have been fooled by their personal experience. Imo this is the most likely case. We know human perception is not a reliable indicator of reality. Sometimes people see or hear things that aren't there. And feelings are completely internal. There's no reason to believe they are the result of anything external. But I can't rule out the second possibility.

The second possibility is God exists. But you still can't know he exists for the simple reason he doesn't want you to know. Don't ask me why not. If I had the answer to that question I'd be a rich man. If God wanted us to know he exists then it would be a simple matter to make his existence known. Apparently God wants us to believe it. You don't believe things that you know.

I have a lot of respect for spiritualists like Minor Axis. He believes something is out there but hasn't closed his mind to the possibility he is wrong. Likewise, I think he appreciates my open mindedness. I have reached a different conclusion but am equally open to the possibility I'm wrong. I also respect you but encourage you to keep an open mind about things that have not been proven. That is an essential ingredient for all learning.

 

[Minor Axis]

Doll...I'm sorry to disagree with you again but I'm afraid you've left me little choice. There is no such thing as a christian who only believes in God part time...imo a person who takes on such a cowardly stand is indeed a hypocrite. What else would you call a person who prays to a God they 'think' is out there? If I didn't 'know' it for a fact then I would keep searching until I found an answer...and if that answer turned out to be 'maybe'....I wouldnt waste my time.

I call it a hedge-your-bets believer. It's hoping, not hypocritical and I see nothing wrong with it. Give the poor souls a break.

 

[sexysadie]

You don't have to claim to know the unknowable to be a Christian. Christianity only requires you believe in God. You can believe something with all your heart and still not know it. In fact, if you know something then you don't believe it, you know it.

There are two possibilities. Either God doesn't exist in which case all those who claim to know he exists have been fooled by their personal experience. Imo this is the most likely case. We know human perception is not a reliable indicator of reality. Sometimes people see or hear things that aren't there. And feelings are completely internal. There's no reason to believe they are the result of anything external. But I can't rule out the second possibility.

The second possibility is God exists. But you still can't know he exists for the simple reason he doesn't want you to know. Don't ask me why not. If I had the answer to that question I'd be a rich man. If God wanted us to know he exists then it would be a simple matter to make his existence known. Apparently God wants us to believe it. You don't believe things that you know.

I have a lot of respect for spiritualists like Minor Axis. He believes something is out there but hasn't closed his mind to the possibility he is wrong. Likewise, I think he appreciates my open mindedness. I have reached a different conclusion but am equally open to the possibility I'm wrong. I also respect you but encourage you to keep an open mind about things that have not been proven. That is an essential ingredient for all learning.

I beg to differ sweetheart. God makes himself known to me daily and no matter what happens, nobody can convince me to doubt something I KNOW. My mind is not closed because I happen to believe something that you have yet to experience. Now....that being said I think that you should look up the word Christian in the dictionary. You can sit there and try and convince yourself, because you're not convincing me, that one can call themselves a christian just because they' what'....SAY they believe in God ...because along with that admittance comes faith.....but I disagree....Going to church does not make you a Christian either.... anymore than going to a garage makes you an automobile.

 

[Minor Axis]

You don't have to claim to know the unknowable to be a Christian. Christianity only requires you believe in God. You can believe something with all your heart and still not know it. In fact, if you know something then you don't believe it, you know it.

There are two possibilities. Either God doesn't exist in which case all those who claim to know he exists have been fooled by their personal experience. Imo this is the most likely case. We know human perception is not a reliable indicator of reality. Sometimes people see or hear things that aren't there. And feelings are completely internal. There's no reason to believe they are the result of anything external. But I can't rule out the second possibility.

The second possibility is God exists. But you still can't know he exists for the simple reason he doesn't want you to know. Don't ask me why not. If I had the answer to that question I'd be a rich man. If God wanted us to know he exists then it would be a simple matter to make his existence known. Apparently God wants us to believe it. You don't believe things that you know.

I have a lot of respect for spiritualists like Minor Axis. He believes something is out there but hasn't closed his mind to the possibility he is wrong. Likewise, I think he appreciates my open mindedness. I have reached a different conclusion but am equally open to the possibility I'm wrong. I also respect you but encourage you to keep an open mind about things that have not been proven. That is an essential ingredient for all learning.

I like your thoughts especially your first paragraph.

Thanks for the kind words. However I'll clarify while I sense or imagine something, its something unknown, something just out of reach, and just because I sense it does not mean I know it, its intelligence or lack of, or it's intentions, or if it is real or it is my imagination. One can easily jump to the conclusion that good feelings or those of well being are evidence of God peering over your shoulder. I'll also stress my feelings do not reach the belief threshold because there has to be something of identifiable substance to have believe.

This is an assumption, but I'll throw it out for discussion sake- I would not be surprised if Sadie feels the same thing I do, but in her case she has made the leap that this feeling is God, that good feelings possibly combined with good things that happen are the divine's handy work.

Yes it could be, there could be spiritual existence just on the edge of our consciousness but it's not anything I can put a finger on. Even if one believes in the spiritual plane, the nature of or even the existence "God" as we imagine him to be is still a question mark. And in the slight chance there is a god (as we imagine him to be), it is a god behind the curtain. Based on this premise, I assume that the curtain is there for a reason, that there is no intent of meaningful communication or it would not be left up to us to imagine it. Something along the lines of "I feel good today so this is God saying I love you." Therefore I assume anyone who senses a personal relationship with God has created a one way relationship. Based on what I have to work with, it's as close to a conclusion as I can reach.

 

[BornReady]

Thanks for the kind words. However I'll clarify while I sense or imagine something, its something unknown, something just out of reach, and just because I sense it does not mean I know it, its intelligence or lack of, or it's intentions, or if it is real or it is my imagination. One can easily jump to the conclusion that good feelings or those of well being are evidence of God peering over your shoulder. I'll also stress my feelings do not reach the belief threshold because there has to be something of identifiable substance to have believe.

Sorry to put words in your mouth. Thanks for clarifying.

This is an assumption, but I'll throw it out for discussion sake- I would not be surprised if Sadie feels the same thing I do, but in her case she has made the leap that this feeling is God, that good feelings possibly combined with good things that happen are the divine's handy work.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I too have experienced feelings similar to what Christians describe as God's presence, such as goose bumps or a warm feeling inside. But there is no proof these feelings are coming from God. People may believe they come from God but they don't know that for sure.

I should have given an example in my earlier post to clarify the difference between belief and knowledge. But I'll do it now instead. I don't tell people I believe the earth is round. People would think me rather silly if I did. We don't believe the earth is round, we know it. It's been proven. Same thing applies to God. People don't know God exists. It hasn't been proven. If it had then we would be as likely to debate the existence of God as the roundness of the earth. People believe God exists. And there's nothing wrong will believing that. They may even be right.

As far as the idea God has chosen to make his existence known to only a select few... nope. I don't buy that. I think Minor Axis' explanation is much more likely. Everyone senses the same thing to one degree or another. It's just some make a leap of faith and some don't. In fact, many would define a Christian as someone who makes that leap of faith.

Edit: And Sadie, just so you don't think I'm doubting your experiences. I'm not. Your experiences were real and they changed your life and that's great. I just think you're confusing belief with knowledge.