Gay Adoption

[Ria]

No, I meant there's an edit button, as in, no need to quadruple post. :ninja

Oh right - have done them now, so I'll leave it for now. Also, may have ended up too long to post, had I edited into one long post.

 

[Ria]

You're normally so cool girl. Don't let this stuff ruffle your feathers too much. There will ALWAYS be more than one opinion to any question.

It's very clear that you've been through a lot, and I'm sure you're a great mother (my mother was in a similar situation as yours FWIW), but like you're telling him, you too have to be careful about being too jaded on one side of the discussion. Men are not the root cause of every broken family, and I doubt violence is the leading cause for divorce anymore. The problem is that people are just too lazy and impatient to work through relationships these days.

To the Christians in this argument, I have a word of caution. Arguing with a non-believer based on the Bible has the equivalent effect of a Buddhist or Muslim arguing with you based on their holy books. Basically, the only response you can expect is frustration or anger. Live your life in a way that reflects your beliefs, and look for opportunity to share when people ask you why you and your family have it so together.

Also, be careful when arguing about Biblical law. Remember that the law was fulfilled 2007 years ago. We don't live under it anymore, and the New Testament is very clear that no man can complete the law as written. Arguing the 10 commandments will only get you into trouble. What is the Way?

My hat is really off to the guys for looking for advice on this subject. There have been no scientific studies on it that I've been able to uncover, but the strongest argument I've heard thus far is the idea that men and women are vastly different creatures, and bring a much needed variety into the home. Society today is so focused on cramming everybody into one mold, but the strength of diversity is only strength when we use our individual strengths and weaknesses. Is the mold we're forcing everybody into a perfect person? .... I doubt it.

No, it's Ok Intruder - I wasn't ruffled. All I was trying to do, was to explain. I found it easier for me to give examples to give my view, by posting as I have above. Easier to use my situation (in part only), that's all. After I read it back to myself, I wasn't aware it would seem as though I was ruffled or jaded on one side of the discussion. It's OK, I wasn't blaming men as the root of family splits, was just putting a different stance on what was said - as he said that women are to blame for no contraception and single parenting, that's all. Just needed to point out the things that he hadn't thought of - genuine reasons why many women end up on their own - it takes two, basically. Didn't know how else to put it forward. I did also say that some men receive the same treatment from women at times too.

I'm nice and calm, just needed to give examples that's all. No worries.

 

[ouachiski]

I am all for homosexual coupples adopting children. The whole god mad man and woman to have children so that is all that should have children debate is crap in my eyes. If you want to buy into the whole god made you the way you are thing what about the men and women that are unable to have babies, He made them that way should they not be able to adopt. Seriosly besides the obvious physical diferences there isnt all that mutch diferent between man and woman. Shure men are typically a little tougher shelled and women a little more emotional but thats not allways the case. Sometimes its quite the oposite. Besides once you get past the exterior shells we are all prety mutch the same inside. A mans love for his child is no diferent than a womans love for her child.

The problems that have been spoken about earlier pertaining to the ridicule of other kids at school because there parents are diferent is an interesting point. I have an uncle and aunt who adopted two mixed children, half black half caucasion. I dont think that the problems they faced where any diferent than those of a child with 2 fothers or two mothers. Allso the son that they adopted is gay, with preachers for parents. Do you think they loved him any less? NO because he is there son and they have this bond called unconditional love.


P.S. sorry if what I said didnt make mutch sense but its 3 in the AM and I wanted to try and get my opinion out. will come back another day when more cohereant and try to make it a little clearer.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Seriosly besides the obvious physical diferences there isnt all that mutch diferent between man and woman.

:thatfunny:

P.S. sorry if what I said didnt make mutch sense but its 3 in the AM and I wanted to try and get my opinion out. will come back another day when more cohereant and try to make it a little clearer.

Oh DOH!! I was all ready to get fired up too. :muscles:

(Don't worry about it. I've been there MANY times.... Wait a minute... .I'm there now!!) :eek

 

[IntruderLS1]

No, it's Ok Intruder - I wasn't ruffled. All I was trying to do, was to explain. I found it easier for me to give examples to give my view, by posting as I have above. Easier to use my situation (in part only), that's all. After I read it back to myself, I wasn't aware it would seem as though I was ruffled or jaded on one side of the discussion. It's OK, I wasn't blaming men as the root of family splits, was just putting a different stance on what was said - as he said that women are to blame for no contraception and single parenting, that's all. Just needed to point out the things that he hadn't thought of - genuine reasons why many women end up on their own - it takes two, basically. Didn't know how else to put it forward. I did also say that some men receive the same treatment from women at times too.

I'm nice and calm, just needed to give examples that's all. No worries.

I was tracking you. No worries. But I came from a family that had a monster in place of a male figure too, so I knew what you were talking about a little more clearly than I think many were going to. It was just a syntax issue. I've read enough of your posts to know that you're pretty smooth.

If we were on ebay, you'd be an A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (or however they do that)

 

[Ria]

I was tracking you. No worries. But I came from a family that had a monster in place of a male figure too, so I knew what you were talking about a little more clearly than I think many were going to. It was just a syntax issue. I've read enough of your posts to know that you're pretty smooth.

If we were on ebay, you'd be an A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (or however they do that)

Thanks Intruder - Sometimes, to voice an opinion on certain things, it's necessary for ppl to explain a bit of their own experiences to clarify why they can have that particular view. Others' need that unfortuantely at times, but it doesn't matter to me - my life is so happy and fulfilled now, so it makes it easier for me to explain things.

I really feel for you too - I do know how you have suffered and how it eats you up inside. Time does heal though, I can vouch for that - it's the process we go through though, just waiting for it and not knowing how long it takes to get there, that torments. In the end, somewhere, help and support comes our way. The time varies for all.

Getting back to Lel and Matt - you are both lovely ppl - I will always wish you both all the good and happiness you deserve in life and what you decide to do.

Ria.

 

[NightWarrior]

Before I read through the rest of this thread, which has expanded somewhat since I was last online, I would just like to comment on the above quote, as I have just read it and leave you some examples as to why you should re-consider your theories on lone parents:

Gay couples, single parents (male or female) can raise their children, with as much loving and good guidance just as well, or even better in certain cases, as couples who live together/married that are Hetresexual.

You cannot, irrationally quote that "If women would learn to properly use birth control, then that would stop. because hang on, for a woman to get pregnant, the man would not have been using contraception either - it goes both ways.

What you have not allowed yourself to think rationally about is that in fact, many couples actually do decide they want to have a baby - more proof that your theory is unsubstantiated.

Another thing you have not thought about, is why some women (and men in certain cases) end up being single parents - many a time too often. This is due to the fact that they have endured cruel, painful treatment from their male partners and the only way out is to become single. For those who manage to get out of these situations alive though and carry on bringing their children up, despite their ordeal, have had to do so on their own and do a fantastic job.

What about the men that have affairs too? They clear off, leaving the women yet again, to fend for their children alone - do you see the pattern here? That women actually have the love, stamina, backbone etc, to do what they need to do, regardless - the man clears off with all the irresponsibility of a five year old child. The woman left on her own to carry on - but the key thing here, is that she does do just that - she carries on, often with no maintenance or any other support from the so-called father for either her or their child/children.

Other times, many times again, men just walk away as they cannot handle and will not provide, the upbringing of their own children - yet again, women are left on their own.

There are too many circumstances which lead to the single parenting scenario - you cannot blame women for being the true parent to their children.

I am single as are a number of other women on here - my son was planned, his father did the complete opposite and barely bothers - no support school-wise, financially, emotionally etc. I am a single parent, because of the cruel behaviour toward me etc, etc, etc. I am and other mothers on here too, all kinds to my son - Mother, nurse, teacher, counsellor when times are hard, minder, adviser, comforter, food and clothes provider and so on and so on......

I just read this as I have not revisited this thread in several days, so let me respond. Where exactly in the quote you quoted me saying did I say that children today are growing up with the FEMALE parent? I said one parent. I actually take offense to the fact that you think the female is the best parent to the child because I have evidence to contradict this theory. Obviously, you have your situations where one is better than the other, blah blah, but you can't really throw such a blanket statement out there. I am sorry for your situation, obviously you found the wrong guy for you and he wronged you. My point of what you quoted me saying was that a child needs both the male and the female parents whether you believe it or not. I grew up without a father from the time I was 7 so I think I can speak on this matter with conviction. My mother did a wonderful job, but as a boy, I lacked what you can only learn from your father. So, as I have re-considered my stance on lone parents, I still say that without a shadow of a doubt, a child needs both parents desperately.

I also had a comment about the birth control going both ways. While I agree with you, it is the responsibility of both, the ultimate decision lies on the woman because, after all, she is the one with the burden of having to carry child and who gets pregnant. If, the birth control is absent from the man, then abstinence is a very good policy that should be enforced without prejudice.

 

[IntruderLS1]

I also had a comment about the birth control going both ways. While I agree with you, it is the responsibility of both, the ultimate decision lies on the woman because, after all, she is the one with the burden of having to carry child and who gets pregnant.

Men and women are equally at fault for the unuwanted pregnancy until abortion comes up, then it becomes only the woman who has a say.

(Is there a stir pot emoti?)

 

[Ria]

I just read this as I have not revisited this thread in several days, so let me respond. Where exactly in the quote you quoted me saying did I say that children today are growing up with the FEMALE parent? I said one parent. I actually take offense to the fact that you think the female is the best parent to the child because I have evidence to contradict this theory. Obviously, you have your situations where one is better than the other, blah blah, but you can't really throw such a blanket statement out there. I am sorry for your situation, obviously you found the wrong guy for you and he wronged you. My point of what you quoted me saying was that a child needs both the male and the female parents whether you believe it or not. I grew up without a father from the time I was 7 so I think I can speak on this matter with conviction. My mother did a wonderful job, but as a boy, I lacked what you can only learn from your father. So, as I have re-considered my stance on lone parents, I still say that without a shadow of a doubt, a child needs both parents desperately.

I also had a comment about the birth control going both ways. While I agree with you, it is the responsibility of both, the ultimate decision lies on the woman because, after all, she is the one with the burden of having to carry child and who gets pregnant. If, the birth control is absent from the man, then abstinence is a very good policy that should be enforced without prejudice.

You wrote : (yr bits in red)

Where exactly in the quote you quoted me saying did I say that children today are growing up with the FEMALE parent?

I didn't, to the above you asked me. Pls read again - I did say about some men too in brackets.

Nope, have just re-read my post to you again and nowhere have I said that the female is the best parent, just what a woman has to do when the men clear off or treat women badly - I have aslo said it happens to some men too! Pls re-read.

Re my situation - again, pls re-read - I was having to give an example to make my post as I did (pls read my post to Intruder) - therefore, I am not sorry for my situation, My 'situation' was yrs ago now. I have had a life since then, so no sorrowful comments are needed at all. I am 43 yrs of age and capable of all that needs dealing with.

My point of what you quoted me saying was that a child needs both the male and the female parents whether you believe it or not.

No-where did I say in my post to you, I didn't believe both parents are needed at all, Allvenom - pls re-read again.

If women would learn to properly use birth control, then that would stop (this was in yr 1st post)

I also had a comment about the birth control going both ways. While I agree with you, it is the responsibility of both, then this was in yr response below, yr 2nd post)
You didn't mention it is both at all, in yr 1st post, just the above, hence my response.

In yr response below, yr 2nd post, you wrote:
I think the problem with debating a topic such as this with the age bracket of most on this forum is kind of pointless. I don't think most on here have enough life experiences to make a rational argument.

You contradict yourself in a way with yr statement above - it doesn't take age to gain life experiences. Ppl have life's experiences at all kinds of ages, as indeed you have told us you did with one parent as a child.

I dnt know yr age, but It's also the maturity or common-sense used that determines if someone knows or understands what's what in life. Also, holding no bitterness helps.

There are many on here in their twenties - some of the advice given to others here, is that of maturity, non-patronizing, less arguementative, less judgemental etc, than shown in yr posts. They have been more rational than yr post, though you quote that with the ages on here, it wld be pointless posting what you did on here, as they cldn't respond rationally. They can and have done.

I have and other friends of mine who have had, but in different ways, had all kinds of experiences in life you cld not imagine, fair and unfair - I am old enough to respond.

This is a debate thread - for all. You'll be surprised who on here, has had plenty of life's experiences even younger than the 20 somethings.

Whether it is better to have both parents through life is beside the point - there is not a choice in how it pans out anymore, in so many cases. As long as there's love there and guidance in any form, it's not so bad having one parent. My son for example, tells me I do a much better job than his 'father' - he says he hasn't learnt a thing from him, but has done so with everything he feels he needs, from me.

I lacked what you can only learn from your father
What would those things be then, that a mother cannot teach what only a father can and the other way around, what can't a single father, teach a child that a mother teaches?

 

[NightWarrior]

This will be my last post towards you Freespeech on this subject. I read through plenty of the posts on this subject to form the hypothesis that of the people that responded, most were liberals. We all know what happens when liberals are allowed to run our country.

But seriously, it does take age to gain life experiences. Two people can go through the same experience, one at 15, one at 30 and I guarantee you with 100% certainty that the 30 year old will actually have learned something from it, while the 15 year old will have forgotten about it quickly and moved on. Why? Thats a good question. I don't make the rules. We could debate all day long who has had worse experiences, blah, blah, it doesn't matter to me. I formed my opinion, you spoke, I spoke, and the debate continues. Don't tell my I am contradicting anything, the quotes you used above do not represent this at all. You found contradiction based on what you THINK is one. Not what I said. I still stand firm on what I said. I never wavered. I didn't patronize anyone. This was a debateful topic, so if you don't like my argument, then move on. I have earned the right to debate, judge, whatever in this country for I have served it. Have you?

If you need me to explain what a father can teach a child that a mother cannot, then you shall never know. I have a son. The lessons he learns from me can never be taught from a woman, and vice versa with a father and his daughter and a mother and daughter.

Thanks for responding.

 

[Ria]

This will be my last post towards you Freespeech on this subject. I read through plenty of the posts on this subject to form the hypothesis that of the people that responded, most were liberals. We all know what happens when liberals are allowed to run our country.

But seriously, it does take age to gain life experiences. Two people can go through the same experience, one at 15, one at 30 and I guarantee you with 100% certainty that the 30 year old will actually have learned something from it, while the 15 year old will have forgotten about it quickly and moved on. Why? Thats a good question. I don't make the rules. We could debate all day long who has had worse experiences, blah, blah, it doesn't matter to me. I formed my opinion, you spoke, I spoke, and the debate continues. Don't tell my I am contradicting anything, the quotes you used above do not represent this at all. You found contradiction based on what you THINK is one. Not what I said. I still stand firm on what I said. I never wavered. I didn't patronize anyone. This was a debateful topic, so if you don't like my argument, then move on. I have earned the right to debate, judge, whatever in this country for I have served it. Have you?

If you need me to explain what a father can teach a child that a mother cannot, then you shall never know. I have a son. The lessons he learns from me can never be taught from a woman, and vice versa with a father and his daughter and a mother and daughter.

Thanks for responding.

AV - Interesting that it is me you have reacted this way to, not anyone else who has responded on this debate.

Nonetheless, I will respond, as that is my wish to do so.

We all can have our say, which is the whole point of this board. All I was doing was having a debate, but you took umbridge and seemed as though you have got annoyed - that's how it comes across, but no point coming on here if you dnt want ppl to debate and differ - you said it yourself above in this post, it is a debate board. You said what you said originally, I debated it. No diff = no debate = no point in this board in that case.

I know for a fact that at the age of 15, a person will not soon forget - I know and have helped many children and adults with problems and can tell you that some children have had more life's experiences than 30 yr olds and have bn more rational in discussion on experiences gone through. At young ages, they do not 'forget' as you put it. You hadn't, had you?

Again, if you re-read my 2nd post on this to you, I have not said who has had worse than others.

It was only the following I mentioned I felt had bn contradicted :

I felt You contradict yourself in a way with yr statement above - it doesn't take age to gain life experiences. Ppl have life's experiences at all kinds of ages, as indeed you have told us you did with one parent as a child.​

I certainly do not "need" you as you put it, "to explain what a father can teach that a mother can't and vice versa", I was just asking what yr stance was on that for the debate, that's all.​

You can't make statements in a debate then not substantiate it, it doesn't work that way - no point in debating in that case.​

I did not intend for hostility - if you post on this board, it means you must be prepared for ppl having different stances on the subjects brought up and having questions to ask.​

As I said above - I have worked with many children and adults with problems etc - I know the differences. It's a lot different to just knowing kids through friends or families who have problems.​

The point of this subject though, is gay parents adopting - it does not make a difference, especially when most families these days are one parent.​

You said:
This was a debateful topic, so if you don't like my argument, then move on.​

I was merely debating...It wasn't actually me who didn't 'like' what was said......​

It doesn't make any difference if I have served yr country or not - I have also earned the right to debate the same as anyone else, as I am a member here too and this is a worldwide topic, not just happening in America.​

 

[Criminal Mastermind]

Reproductive sucess is passing on your genetic material. Gay people do not have reproductive sucess, but yet the 'gay gene' passes on. It must be a mutation then. But then again there is no 'Gay gene'. It was proven ONCE and all the gay people ran around screaming that they were born gay.. but when the theory was retested there was a different conclusion...

Since being gay means no reproductive sucess, this makes them.....you know what it is..

and like said, i dont want gay people adopting kids.

 

[andcuriouser]

I fail to see the connection between being able to have a child, and being a good adoptive parent.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

Reproductive sucess is passing on your genetic material. Gay people do not have reproductive sucess, but yet the 'gay gene' passes on. It must be a mutation then. But then again there is no 'Gay gene'. It was proven ONCE and all the gay people ran around screaming that they were born gay.. but when the theory was retested there was a different conclusion...

Since being gay means no reproductive sucess, this makes them.....you know what it is..

and like said, i dont want gay people adopting kids.

What was this different conclusion you talk of? You mention it, but never substantiate it with any evidence. I see no links to any medical or psychological studies done on this topic anywhere in your post. Which leads me to believe this entire paragraph was typed out based off your opinion. It does seem to be skewed in one direction.

Also, you hint of some sort of gay gene. Where was this test and where are the studies, the proof, anything at all?

 

[Criminal Mastermind]

What was this different conclusion you talk of? You mention it, but never substantiate it with any evidence. I see no links to any medical or psychological studies done on this topic anywhere in your post. Which leads me to believe this entire paragraph was typed out based off your opinion. It does seem to be skewed in one direction.

Also, you hint of some sort of gay gene. Where was this test and where are the studies, the proof, anything at all?

Here you go

The Innate-Immutable Argument Finds No Basis in Science

 

[TheOriginalJames]

Here you go

The Innate-Immutable Argument Finds No Basis in Science

That doesn't prove anything about the 'gay gene' you spoke of as if it was a proven scientific fact. lol but I wonder who funded that, someone who wants to 'cure' gay people?

 

[GuesSAngel]

"gay gene" wtf? I don't remember reading about that. hahaha.

 

[Butterfly]

I have only just read this whole thread, so I will try keep all my comments in this one post...

Some of these kids are so messed up it really don't matter, but over all I would say it would mess with the kids mind to much. If you are happy with matt, you don't need kids.

That is a closed minded statement! Do you have kids?
Children add a different aspect to your life that your partner could never fill.

I'm soooo sorry. Well i still think the kid thing should wait cause if something bad happens a innceont life will be hanging in th balance

How long should they wait? A week, a month, a year, a lifetime? Should Hetro couples also wait?

Life is unpredictable, take care of your happiness in the moment, don't postpone it... tomorrow might never come.

I think the problem with debating a topic such as this with the age bracket of most on this forum is kind of pointless. I don't think most on here have enough life experiences to make a rational argument. If you haven't adopted yet, don't do it. It is wrong for you to raise a child without a mother. You are depriving that child. There is a reason it takes a man and a woman to make pro-create and it has nothing to do with sexual organs. Each sex brings something unique to a new child. Two women or two men cannot provide that. No one is questioning whether or not you would provide enough love for that child, for that I have no doubt. But you just cannot provide the means that the child needs. If I hurt your feelings, I am sorry, but that is my opinion. Please don't debate with me that kids grow up today with one parent, I see that as an epidemic as well. If women would learn to properly use birth control, then that would stop.

Firstly, birthcontrol goes both ways!

Secondly, I know Freespeech has already debated some instances of how a person could find themselves a single parent even after planning a baby. I will add one more situation to that... What about death? My mother is a single parent, because my father DIED... should she have put her kid up for adoption so she could be raised by a 2 parent family, simply because she lost her husband?

Open your mind!

Im cool with gay people as long as they dont touch me, or talk to me or anything. Some people view it as ignorant but when i was a child i was taught being gay was wrong. Its abnormal, and anything thats not normal human beings will criticise.

Will gays eventually have equal rights? Yes, but not anytime soon.

Sounds more like you are homophobic... Perhaps you are afraid you are gay too

Reproductive sucess is passing on your genetic material. Gay people do not have reproductive sucess,
Since being gay means no reproductive sucess, this makes them.....you know what it is..

and like said, i dont want gay people adopting kids.

Reproductive success... more closed minded crap!
What about infertile couples? Should they not have the right to adopt either? Your god obviously made them infertile for a reason, right?


Personally, I have no issues with gay people, or with them adopting! I say go for it!

 

[Ria]

Reproductive sucess is passing on your genetic material. Gay people do not have reproductive sucess, but yet the 'gay gene' passes on. It must be a mutation then. But then again there is no 'Gay gene'. It was proven ONCE and all the gay people ran around screaming that they were born gay.. but when the theory was retested there was a different conclusion...

Since being gay means no reproductive sucess, this makes them.....you know what it is..

and like said, i dont want gay people adopting kids.

Well CM, I gotta say - It's just as well it's not you who decides!

 

[Ria]

Hi Jen

Well put girl!

Ria