for all you atheists out there...

[GraceAbounds]

I understand how you've come under this impression, but it isn't accurate according to the Christian faith (as it is in the Bible, not organized religion). God does not wish harm or suffering on us.

In Christianity, we believe that our souls are eternal creations, and there are only two destinations that we have open to us when we die.

God put down a rebellion, and created a .... "prison" for Lucifer and his fallen angels. The Bible is very clear that we have two choices in front of us, and God asks us to choose life.

In the end (in Christian faith), it is a personal choice. God has given us the information, and asked us to choose the positive, but He will not make us love or listen. To me, this implies a great deal of respect being given from The Creator, to the creation. How many of us would allow free will to that which we have created?

It is a shame Christianity has been so tarnished by man made institutions (church). Not all churches are bad, and I would venture to bet that most (99%) have nothing but the best intentions, but Jesus taught that sectarianism is a destructive force, and we're all seeing that here in the arguments being used against the church.

We Christians dig our own holes with our legalism, and absolutism, and our judgments. Do none of us remember that this is the very thing that Jesus spent his life arguing against with the Pharisees of His day? The Bible has precious few absolutes. Believe in God, accept His forgiveness, and be saved. In everything else, God is teaching us how to live better lives, but when did we start to tell people they were going to hell because they had a nose piercing, or tattoo, or drank, or etc etc etc....??? God works on us all as individuals, in His own perfect time for us. To one He is working on language, to the other, he is working on relationships, to the next, He works on honesty, etc... We cannot judge because another isn't being taught the same lesson at the same time.

Jesus told us to love our neighbors. He lived his life surrounded by sinners and tax collectors (lol that tax collector image hasn't changed much in 2000 years)

(oops, gotta go. I'll try to finish this thought later. Sorry I'm getting caught in the middle. This is going somewhere. LOL)

I was blessed by your post this morning Intruder. Accurate and well explained. Hopefully your post will shed true light to others.

 

[All Else Failed]

THERE IS NO REAL CHOICE IN CHRISTIANITY.


It's either A) accept Christ and worship OR B) Do not worship and suffer in hell. That is NOT a choice, its a down right threat. Its a gun pointed to your head.

If there were to be a choice, and you chose not to believe, god would just let you die and nothing would happen, no afterlife. Threats are not options, harm is not choice. But no, thats not how god wants it. He won't forgive you for not wanting to bow to him, he's going to let you burn for not begging to him.



Oh and graceabounds, stop belittling everyone who disagrees with you by saying stuff like "showing us the truth" or "shedding the light of truth on us".
Read a high school science textbook, maybe that will show you some truth.

 

[GraceAbounds]

I'm not belittling anyone AEF. I'm sorry that you perceive my words that way.

 

[Tim]

I know that is very hard to keep religious debates from becoming personal and attacking the opposition, but we must strive to keep the topic from turning into a personal fight.

I'm saying this now so we can all step back and think before posting. Keep debating the topic without personal jabs. It will make for a much cleaner debate that we can all participate in.

Thank you

 

[IntruderLS1]

I know that is very hard to keep religious debates from becoming personal and attacking the opposition, but we must strive to keep the topic from turning into a personal fight.

I'm saying this now so we can all step back and think before posting. Keep debating the topic without personal jabs. It will make for a much cleaner debate that we can all participate in.

Thank you

Thanks Tim.

Oh and graceabounds, stop belittling everyone who disagrees with you...

I actually LOL'd at this. You, of all people, feel that Grace, of all people belittles people who dissagree with her. :24: I think Grace has been the only one in the thread to bend over backwards to be polite to everybody.

I don't know how she keeps such an even keel all the time, but my hats off to her. Temper is definately one of my larger weaknesses.

BRB. Gotta make sure I read something right real quick.

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

I don't know how she keeps such an even keel all the time, but my hats off to her. Temper is definately one of my larger weaknesses.

grace is just good like that It's all that jesus she be havin up in her life...I need to get me some of that Jesus lovin too. I love me some jesus!
No for real though...I have immense...I mean HUGE amounts of respect for Grace..she is the Epitome of Gracefulness <3

 

[GraceAbounds]

It's all that jesus she be havin up in her life...I need to get me some of that Jesus lovin too. I love me some jesus! <3

It won't let me give you any more rep. :tongue: Heh!

 

[IntruderLS1]

It won't let me give you any more rep. :tongue: Heh!

LOL Me either. Good one Breakfast.

 

[memento_mori]

It's not my intention to continue on too much in this discussion, but what you've said up here, I don't understand from somebody who grew up in the church.

This (OT God and NT God are different) is basic, 1st grade, fundamental Christianity, but you're talking about it like you've never seen it before.

Did you really grow up in a Catholic school system, or are you guys just on some sort of missionary quest to disprove God to as many Christians as you can, and find that a Catholic upbringing gives you an extra level of cover?

That is basic, 1st grade, fundamental avoiding the question, but you're talking about it like you're too good to give the answer. Did you really come to ridicule him for making that statement? maybe someone can brush me up on 1st grade theology:

What was up with all the random smiting god did in the old testament?

 

[All Else Failed]

Well apparently god was wrathful one day, he sent himself (and his son I suppose) to earth to die for our sins and establish a new era (to himself?), so forget about all of that genocide guys! Just a big miscommunication!

 

[Magic P]

My question doesn't require you to explain your transformation at all. I just asked if you think god asking millions to blindly bow before him and worship him is an act of humility. If he was humble, he would have no problem saying "You were my creation. Even though I don't agree with the path you've followed, I can respect it and allow you into heaven." But that's not what he says, is it?

What happens if he allows everyone goes to heaven? Then there is no heaven really, isn't there? There will be good people and bad people just like on the earth. What's the point if that's the case?

 

[IntruderLS1]

That is basic, 1st grade, fundamental avoiding the question, but you're talking about it like you're too good to give the answer. Did you really come to ridicule him for making that statement? maybe someone can brush me up on 1st grade theology:

What was up with all the random smiting god did in the old testament?

Don't lose your cool G-funk. You have a TON more credibility than others on site. No point in letting things get ya down.

I wasn't avoiding any questions, and certainly don't consider myself to be too good to talk to you guys. I've been here for dayz on the subject.

The statement you quoted is in response to something that is so far out there, that I question the idea of you guys growing up in the Catholic church. There is a very specific story that is popular in church, Sunday school, Bible study, etc... that talks of Jesus' "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" speech. I cannot believe for two seconds that a person who has been involved in the church longer than about 6 months would not know this story by heart.

I've been stuck in a really tough spot here with this. Common sense tells me one thing, but I'm not sure how to bring it up without you guys thinking the religious guy is just flipping out. ... Here we go though.

I gather from what I was responding to that there is a lie somewhere in the story. Either A) [Most likely in my mind] you guys really did grow up in the church, and are twisting the information to confuse others who are not well versed in the Bible, or B) he didn't come up in the church, and his use of links, books, and Google searches left him high and dry on background information for what he was talking about. Either way though, something is wrong here. Us non-PC people call it lying, but I guess in the name of fairness, we'll call it distorting the truth this time. :yuk

There is no hostility from me to you. I don't understand how pointing out such a glaring problem with the information presented would lead you to believe I was attacking your friend.

If asked yesterday, I would have assumed you would have had a bigger problem with me NOT challenging something that was so far outside the realm... :confused

 

[memento_mori]

i don't mean any offense, i just didn't see an answer in your response. it kept alluding to some sort of basic answer that we should already know, but you didn't want to type out for the rest of us.

The old and new testament god is the same god. Do you think that jesus just popped in one day, saved us all, and then the OT god was like "Oops sorry dudes, I didn't mean to committed mass murder on humanity when I supposedly flooded the entire planet, we're cool now!"

If you think that the word of god is 100% correct and true, why are you not stoning harlots? I mean, he wouldn't let his word get twisted, not even by Jesus.

John 8: The Adulterous Woman (from biblegateway.com)

3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,

4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5"Now in the Law (C)Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6They were saying this, (D)testing Him, (E)so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7But when they persisted in asking Him, (F)He straightened up, and said to them, "(G)He who is without sin among you, let him be the (H)first to throw a stone at her."
8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10(I)Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "(J)I do not condemn you, either Go From now on (K)sin no more."]



so we don't throw rocks at harlots anymore because we all have sin. although, we do condemn other people. so it's not like we take 'he who has not sinned cast the first stone' literally anyway. i haven't seen anything in the bible explicitly telling anyone to throw rocks at prostitutes, to me it's just a custom in the middle east.

but isn't it a bit ridiculous that the new testament god is supposedly different than the old testament god? and if they are the same, how do you explain all the random violence in the old testament (that the bible DOES say was blessed by god)?

 

[All Else Failed]

Don't lose your cool G-funk. You have a TON more credibility than others on site. No point in letting things get ya down.

I wasn't avoiding any questions, and certainly don't consider myself to be too good to talk to you guys. I've been here for dayz on the subject.

The statement you quoted is in response to something that is so far out there, that I question the idea of you guys growing up in the Catholic church. There is a very specific story that is popular in church, Sunday school, Bible study, etc... that talks of Jesus' "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" speech. I cannot believe for two seconds that a person who has been involved in the church longer than about 6 months would not know this story by heart.

I've been stuck in a really tough spot here with this. Common sense tells me one thing, but I'm not sure how to bring it up without you guys thinking the religious guy is just flipping out. ... Here we go though.

I gather from what I was responding to that there is a lie somewhere in the story. Either A) [Most likely in my mind] you guys really did grow up in the church, and are twisting the information to confuse others who are not well versed in the Bible, or B) he didn't come up in the church, and his use of links, books, and Google searches left him high and dry on background information for what he was talking about. Either way though, something is wrong here. Us non-PC people call it lying, but I guess in the name of fairness, we'll call it distorting the truth this time. :yuk

There is no hostility from me to you. I don't understand how pointing out such a glaring problem with the information presented would lead you to believe I was attacking your friend.

If asked yesterday, I would have assumed you would have had a bigger problem with me NOT challenging something that was so far outside the realm... :confused

Nothing I said was "far out there". The OT god was clearly wrathful, jesus came along and came with "new law" and then all of a sudden the NT god was a peace loving god. That doesn't really excuse the OT god (which is the same god) of his murderous intent in the OT. Although, there is still plenty of violence in the NT as well.


Plus, why would I lie about my past? Me and memento have known each other in real life for years and years and both of us can contest for each other of being raised in a religious environment.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Plus, why would I lie about my past? Me and memento have known each other in real life for years and years and both of us can contest for each other of being raised in a religious environment.

Which is why I labeled the idea I thought was most likely.

 

[IntruderLS1]

John 8: The Adulterous Woman (from biblegateway.com)

3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,

4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5"Now in the Law (C)Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6They were saying this, (D)testing Him, (E)so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7But when they persisted in asking Him, (F)He straightened up, and said to them, "(G)He who is without sin among you, let him be the (H)first to throw a stone at her."
8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10(I)Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "(J)I do not condemn you, either Go From now on (K)sin no more."]

but isn't it a bit ridiculous that the new testament god is supposedly different than the old testament god? and if they are the same, how do you explain all the random violence in the old testament (that the bible DOES say was blessed by god)?

Nothing I said was "far out there". The OT god was clearly wrathful, jesus came along and came with "new law" and then all of a sudden the NT god was a peace loving god. That doesn't really excuse the OT god (which is the same god) of his murderous intent in the OT.

The Old Testament God, and the New Testament God are the same God. Not only that, but we are taught that God is the same, "yesterday, today, and forever."

I know it's easy to take things without context and make the case that there are obvious differences, but that is not the case. In the Old Testament, forgiveness worked differently than it does under Jesus. God gave them ways to temporarily cover their sins, but they couldn't make it to heaven on their own worldly gifts. The Hebrew word for Hell (in the Old Testament especially) is not the same fire and brimstone Hell that we think of with the English translation. The word used was more in reference to a temporary place of holding.

When Jesus came, He offered His own life in place of ours. (For the penalty of sin is death) He paid the debts for the sin that we as people are going to commit, and as such, the law was fulfilled. We don't sacrifice animals anymore, and we have access to the Lord in a way that wasn't possible before.

"God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him." John 3:16-17.

Same God. Same rules. Great love and forgiveness.

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

not to derail the thread...but i read the word pharisee and it reminded me of a wonderful song we used to sing in vacation bible school when i was younger:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa
I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I don't wanna be a Pharisee
I don't wanna be a Pharisee
Cause they're not fair you see
I don't wanna be a Pharisee [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa
I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I don't wanna be a Sadducee
I don't wanna be a Sadducee
Cause they're all sad you see
I don't wanna be a Sadducee[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa
I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I don't wanna be a hypocrite
I don't wanna be a hypocrite
Cause they're not hip with it
I don't wanna be a hypocrite [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa
I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
I just wanna be a sheep
Baa, baa, baa, baa[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]
[/FONT]

 

[All Else Failed]

The Old Testament God, and the New Testament God are the same God. Not only that, but we are taught that God is the same, "yesterday, today, and forever."

I know it's easy to take things without context and make the case that there are obvious differences, but that is not the case. In the Old Testament, forgiveness worked differently than it does under Jesus. God gave them ways to temporarily cover their sins, but they couldn't make it to heaven on their own worldly gifts. The Hebrew word for Hell (in the Old Testament especially) is not the same fire and brimstone Hell that we think of with the English translation. The word used was more in reference to a temporary place of holding.

When Jesus came, He offered His own life in place of ours. (For the penalty of sin is death) He paid the debts for the sin that we as people are going to commit, and as such, the law was fulfilled. We don't sacrifice animals anymore, and we have access to the Lord in a way that wasn't possible before.



Same God. Same rules. Great love and forgiveness.

You may have overlooked him killing all the first born in Egypt, killing off humanity in the great flood, and destroying entire cities. Not that forgiving. Is that forgiveness working differently also?


Why did OT god not have forgiveness like NT god from the very beginning? It seems silly to me to switch horses midstream.

 

[IntruderLS1]

not to derail the thread...but i read the word pharisee and it reminded me of a wonderful song we used to sing in vacation bible school when i was younger:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I just wanna be a sheep [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial][/FONT]

LOL Good times there. I'd love to rep ya for the smile, but I need to spread some loven around to others first.

 

[IntruderLS1]

You may have overlooked him killing all the first born in Egypt, killing off humanity in the great flood, and destroying entire cities. Not that forgiving. Is that forgiveness working differently also?

I'm not overlooking those events. They fit, and cause no conflict within the scripture. Since you've set me straight on your knowledge of the subject, I don't know why you keep asking these question over and over again. :confused

Why did OT god not have forgiveness like NT god from the very beginning? It seems silly to me to switch horses midstream.

It was the "Old Testament God" (I don't know where this label came from. He's the same guy in both books) that sent His only begotten son to die for us. That seems to me like a fairly powerful tie-in for the New Testament.

Sin is a barrier between us and God. It always has been. God showed us great mercy and forgiveness when he didn't wipe us off the planet the first time we intentionally disobeyed Him.

There are consequences for sin, but the logic of those consequences somehow proving God is unmerciful is like saying a child's parents are mean, cold hearted brutes for grounding their child after he/she got kicked out of school. If those parents acted the way you seem to think God should have acted, how far in life do you think this kid is going to go?

Do you think the kid would be better off if his parents simply decided to let him play outside, and have an extra helping of dessert after dinner?

Dude... That's crazy talk ha-ha!!