for all you atheists out there...

[Magic P]

don't worry, sweetcheeks. you've still got me

:nanajig::nanajig::emo_love031

 

[memento_mori]

i've said it before and i'll say it again

so im in a bad mood and in for a good god debate.

i see people look towards god and religion as a moral compass. i guess that's reasonable, but it's in no way infallible. some believers tell non-believers and people they dont agree with to read a bible, get their morals straight.

thats just absurd.

the bible has been used by the nazis and the kkk. Ed Gein's mother read him the bible every night. google him. anti-abortionists tell pregnant 12 yr olds raped by their fathers that they better keep that baby, soley on the Word of this 'good book.' it's also been used by the good Dr Martin Luther King Jr.

so not everyone who quotes the bible is wrong, it's just that it's so damn big and vague (like Parka pointed out) that you can use it for any number of agendas. reading the bible alone certainly isnt going to make you a good person. so where does that leave us but back to relying on our own beliefs? there is no moral compass, but a moral triangulation between experience, democracy, and rational thinking.

and whats this highest power stuff? so far as i see it, we're in a neverending story of constantly trying to find deeper and deeper truths. if this is God, fine. But to characterize that as some kind supreme being that will always help you out when in trouble is a gross perversion of that to me. it cuts a person off from having faith in what will actually pull them through the situation: themselves. The Powers that Be are nothing to The Powers of Being.

There are obvious flaws in an omnipotent omniscient all-benevolent being, especially with all the violence in the Old Testament. And again to dwell on the absurdity of taking the Bible literally:

2 Kings 2:23 (New International Version)
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"

24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

 

[All Else Failed]

I like the naturalist/humanist way of being moral and ethical. Less room for violence.



But you raise very good points memento. I think the bible was a collection of regional myths, lore and legend mixed with cultural common law for a basic guide on how to live. Wether that guide is a good guide, is up for debate, but certainly should not be taken literally.

 

[GraceAbounds]

i've said it before and i'll say it again

Originally Posted by memento_mori
so im in a bad mood and in for a good god debate.

i see people look towards god and religion as a moral compass. i guess that's reasonable, but it's in no way infallible. some believers tell non-believers and people they dont agree with to read a bible, get their morals straight.

thats just absurd.

the bible has been used by the nazis and the kkk. Ed Gein's mother read him the bible every night. google him. anti-abortionists tell pregnant 12 yr olds raped by their fathers that they better keep that baby, soley on the Word of this 'good book.' it's also been used by the good Dr Martin Luther King Jr.

so not everyone who quotes the bible is wrong, it's just that it's so damn big and vague (like Parka pointed out) that you can use it for any number of agendas. reading the bible alone certainly isnt going to make you a good person. so where does that leave us but back to relying on our own beliefs? there is no moral compass, but a moral triangulation between experience, democracy, and rational thinking.

and whats this highest power stuff? so far as i see it, we're in a neverending story of constantly trying to find deeper and deeper truths. if this is God, fine. But to characterize that as some kind supreme being that will always help you out when in trouble is a gross perversion of that to me. it cuts a person off from having faith in what will actually pull them through the situation: themselves. The Powers that Be are nothing to The Powers of Being.

There are obvious flaws in an omnipotent omniscient all-benevolent being, especially with all the violence in the Old Testament. And again to dwell on the absurdity of taking the Bible literally:

2 Kings 2:23 (New International Version)
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"

24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Religion may have been the occasion for various social and political wrongs, but it is not the cause. If anything, man wrongly uses religion as an excuse for their own wrongs. If religion was done away with, people would still identify themselves with some other group and go to war over territory, political conflict or some other issue. Man’s injustice to one another like elitism and bigotry are sadly a part of human nature with or without religion.

Religious traditions provide us with a common set of morals and values in an age where relativism reigns. With relativism there is not a clear cut definition of truth because the relativist believes that right and wrong is relative to circumstance. This means that, according to relativism, right and wrong is constantly changing. Society needs the moral insight of religious traditions, which have been past down from many generations of spiritual wisdom to guide us regarding ethical matters.

It would be a great help to many to recognize that not only does spirituality have many benefits for the individual, but it has many benefits for society as well. Religion helps people work toward a common good for all of mankind. Religion, when practiced seriously and sincerely, is a force for good in the world promoting humility, morality, wisdom, equality, and social justice.

 

[memento_mori]

Religion may have been the occasion for various social and political wrongs, but it is not the cause. If anything, man wrongly uses religion as an excuse for their own wrongs. If religion was done away with, people would still identify themselves with some other group and go to war over territory, political conflict or some other issue. Man’s injustice to one another like elitism and bigotry are sadly a part of human nature with or without religion.

Religious traditions provide us with a common set of morals and values in an age where relativism reigns. With relativism there is not a clear cut definition of truth because the relativist believes that right and wrong is relative to circumstance. This means that, according to relativism, right and wrong is constantly changing. Society needs the moral insight of religious traditions, which have been past down from many generations of spiritual wisdom to guide us regarding ethical matters.

It would be a great help to many to recognize that not only does spirituality have many benefits for the individual, but it has many benefits for society as well. Religion helps people work toward a common good for all of mankind. Religion, when practiced seriously and sincerely, is a force for good in the world promoting humility, morality, wisdom, equality, and social justice.

everything changes, and that's not always such a bad thing to have new definitions of right and wrong. i seriously doubt the statement i highlighted in bold. and it's because sometimes i think it has serious flaws that people can exploit, that it would be better to rely on other forms of humility, morality, wisdom, equality, and social justice.

 

[All Else Failed]

Religion may have been the occasion for various social and political wrongs, but it is not the cause. If anything, man wrongly uses religion as an excuse for their own wrongs. If religion was done away with, people would still identify themselves with some other group and go to war over territory, political conflict or some other issue. Man’s injustice to one another like elitism and bigotry are sadly a part of human nature with or without religion.

Religious traditions provide us with a common set of morals and values in an age where relativism reigns. With relativism there is not a clear cut definition of truth because the relativist believes that right and wrong is relative to circumstance. This means that, according to relativism, right and wrong is constantly changing. Society needs the moral insight of religious traditions, which have been past down from many generations of spiritual wisdom to guide us regarding ethical matters.

It would be a great help to many to recognize that not only does spirituality have many benefits for the individual, but it has many benefits for society as well. Religion helps people work toward a common good for all of mankind. Religion, when practiced seriously and sincerely, is a force for good in the world promoting humility, morality, wisdom, equality, and social justice.

I agree that human nature is easily corrupt, butreligion is a vehicle for all of these wrongs. An easy scapegoat for human nature to abuse to gain their own ends. The same goes for politics.


Ill respond to this more in full later, got to go to class.

 

[memento_mori]

intruder posted this link a million pages ago. General Introduction for Non-Believers: Part 1, Are Your Beliefs Consistent with Your Worldview?

i didn't find anything that i don't think i've addressed already.


i don't agree with their definition of a skeptic atheist, and i've already admitted that it is difficult to observe and prove how the universe started scientifically with evidence, all we have is theories. but we do have theories. there are alternatives to God creating everything.

 

[All Else Failed]

everything changes, and that's not always such a bad thing to have new definitions of right and wrong. i seriously doubt the statement i highlighted in bold. and it's because sometimes i think it has serious flaws that people can exploit, that it would be better to rely on other forms of humility, morality, wisdom, equality, and social justice.

Exactly. Morals and ethics, right and wrong change with almost every generation. The biblical "rights" and "wrongs" aren't always expediant to humanity as a whole. We dont NEED religion to be moral or ethical. I strongly urge everyone to look into naturalism.

 

[icecuban]

Exactly. Morals and ethics, right and wrong change with almost every generation. The biblical "rights" and "wrongs" aren't always expediant to humanity as a whole. We dont NEED religion to be moral or ethical. I strongly urge everyone to look into naturalism.

i think they are all as relative today as then. i've said this in a different thread, how before i knew of jesus, i thought of who he would be if i could make a perfect person. i based my proto-typical person on how they would treat the wrongs of today, but the wrongs today are the same as yesterday, the wandering lustful eye, greed for power and possesions...absoulty nothing has changed. and if religion is used as the vehicle, dont be mad at the vehicle, be mad at the driver, but you seem stuck on hating the vehicle, when it is man you should gear yourself towards, they are not religious, these user of scapegoats. for someone who hates injustice and hypocracy so much, why not point out how wrong people are at following it, instead of pointing out what you think might be wrong with the idea.....
dont stop posting about religion Else, its too much fun!

 

[Magic P]

Oh oh wow everyone is back!

 

[memento_mori]

i think they are all as relative today as then. i've said this in a different thread, how before i knew of jesus, i thought of who he would be if i could make a perfect person. i based my proto-typical person on how they would treat the wrongs of today, but the wrongs today are the same as yesterday, the wandering lustful eye, greed for power and possesions...absoulty nothing has changed. and if religion is used as the vehicle, dont be mad at the vehicle, be mad at the driver, but you seem stuck on hating the vehicle, when it is man you should gear yourself towards, they are not religious, these user of scapegoats. for someone who hates injustice and hypocracy so much, why not point out how wrong people are at following it, instead of pointing out what you think might be wrong with the idea.....
dont stop posting about religion Else, its too much fun!

so you're saying you knew what was right and wrong before you were influenced by culture. kind of like saying people naturally know what's right and what's wrong, and that we all know the same rights and wrongs. i disagree.

what's considered right and wrong by society depends on the time and place. slavery used to be encouraged in america. it's still considered disrespectful for women to express their opinions in some countries. homosexuality used to be punishable by death. ritual suicide used to be honorable in japanese culture. etc.

if i meet the driver that couldnt stop in time and hit my car in the intersection, i'll talk to them about it. otherwise, i'm rallying support for better anti-lock breaks.

and i'm rallying for a better understanding of what's right and what's wrong by getting religion out of the equation, because it seems like we can adopt a better code of conduct that won't be so easily exploited.

 

[memento_mori]

what about intelligent design? evolution and religion should be hand and hand. the creationist story is great when deciphered i believe.

because from my understanding of intelligent design, it's evolution with 'oh yeah, and this was all caused by God' thrown at the end. there is not enough proof that God exists.

 

[icecuban]

because from my understanding of intelligent design, it's evolution with 'oh yeah, and this was all caused by God' thrown at the end. there is not enough proof that God exists.

what proof should we look for? "if we were to only believe the things we see with our eyes, then first and formost, we must stop believing in love" how do you proove love? u can hold a door for someone, kiss them, whatever, but there is never a way to proove love, no matter what actions u do, u just have to have trust and faith that that is what is going on. nothing great in this world is easily prooven, if at all. i've met plenty of people who have some type of superstitousness to them, but refuse to believe in god because of proof, isnt that funny? i still think that ideas are as much a physical manifestation as anything else in this universe, and if it is a beautiful idea (even if stupid people f*ck it up) then i dont think it should be layed to waste just because it cannot be held in our hands.

i do have a problem with "religion" though. i mean, god and jesus didnt even want people telling others about them, they would rather just have us walk around, doing good things, and not speaking any name but love when giving justice to our good deeds. to be a wandering helper is where its at.

if intelligent design is a great idea, which i think it is, its nice and i dont think it hurts anyone (people do that), then i say call it true! and say there is no design, if it hurts no one, and call it true! call them both true if it doesnt hurt! whatever is a great idea, i say keep it until it can be disprooven (is that a word?), not prooven.

 

[memento_mori]

i was wondering when you'd post.

what proof should we look for? "if we were to only believe the things we see with our eyes, then first and formost, we must stop believing in love" how do you proove love?

we don't teach love as a scientific theory.

if intelligent design is a great idea, which i think it is, its nice and i dont think it hurts anyone (people do that), then i say call it true! and say there is no design, if it hurts no one, and call it true! call them both true if it doesnt hurt! whatever is a great idea, i say keep it until it can be disprooven (is that a word?), not prooven.

just because it's nice and pretty doesn't make it true. we can't prove everything, but teaching God made the world in public schools alongside the abc's and the multiplication tables is too much.

 

[icecuban]

i was wondering when you'd post.



we don't teach love as a scientific theory.




just because it's nice and pretty doesn't make it true. we can't prove everything, but teaching God made the world in public schools alongside the abc's and the multiplication tables is too much.

we may not teach love or examine it scientificaly, but everyone takes it as a given in our lives, as truth. but it was just an example.
i agree though, i dont approve of teaching about god in public school. i dont think anyone who hasnt been out in the world and touched the poor and needy, and seen all that is good out there will understand god anyways. going to church when your younger is futile, if not disruptive, since u see people, take an hour out of the week to be fake and confess and all that crap. it takes a special type of person to look past all fakers.
and why not accept it because it it nice and pretty? why miss out just because it cant be proven? it should stay an open possiblitly, and taken to heart, if it cant be disproven, but no, this does not happen. people need to see to believe, and not believe to see.

 

[icecuban]

oh momento, i knew u missed me

 

[icecuban]

so you're saying you knew what was right and wrong before you were influenced by culture. kind of like saying people naturally know what's right and what's wrong, and that we all know the same rights and wrongs. i disagree.

what's considered right and wrong by society depends on the time and place. slavery used to be encouraged in america. it's still considered disrespectful for women to express their opinions in some countries. homosexuality used to be punishable by death. ritual suicide used to be honorable in japanese culture. etc.

if i meet the driver that couldnt stop in time and hit my car in the intersection, i'll talk to them about it. otherwise, i'm rallying support for better anti-lock breaks.

and i'm rallying for a better understanding of what's right and what's wrong by getting religion out of the equation, because it seems like we can adopt a better code of conduct that won't be so easily exploited.

and whether u take religion out or not, people are still going to have one hand in their pocket. whether its communism, atheism, or christianity. its just the ones that require the most from people, in some karmic way, that makes them look all the more the fool

 

[memento_mori]

there are plenty of people who don't believe in love, especially angsty teenagers and a growing number of divorcing adults.

why not accept it because it's nice and pretty? because it's trying to portray itself as actual fact, and saying God exists is a much bigger jump than say love for example. intelligent design is no more disprovable than the flying spaghetti monster. people SHOULD NOT take it to heart.

 

[icecuban]

....and upon further examination, the brakes look fine, i must look to the driver, i am sorry, but ive looked over the brakes, and i find no fault.

 

[memento_mori]

yeah, because we never come up with better breaking systems for cars. we're still using the same breaks we used for the model Ts.

there are problems with religion that people exploit that would be less exploitable if we didn't blindly believe in them so much.