Fair tax ?

[Stone]

You really should not agree with tim agreeing with you.
Remember stone people set up shop overseas to beat the costs here...My plan offers great incentive to set up here.
And remember the construction stone,,,this is key.
A simple 5 million dollar building is mostly labor...as its not only the labor to build but all the labor involved in materials that go to the building.....it is a great return on 5 million bucks.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE NOW WORKING they can buy those cars on tims lot...which means more cars have to be built.


You can not beat science stone.

You really should not agree with tim agreeing with you.

We are both correct on this issue, TM.
You are obviously wrong

My plan offers great incentive to set up here.

Your new argument only offers a tax credit.....in a capitalistic model, the goal is profit.
Your model is largely absent the necessary demand to create profit because of a weak consumer base.
Your model won't provide a profit incentive on any great scale.....it's OK to put in place as an effort that will eventually pay off.....but it won't replace a small tax hike on the wealthy at this time nor have any significant influence in job creation at this time.

You can not beat science stone.

Says the guy that supports creation science

 

[Stone]

You really don't have a fucking clue, do you?

Your ideas and philosophies are so ass backwards it makes me wonder if you are just fucking with us....

Bit of both, imo.

A lot of extremist right wing rhetoric.....but his explanations are all his own

 

[robdawg1]

You guys call it a pipe dream, but look at the benefit. break it down as this:

Joe Public decides to utilize the tax credit to invest in a lumber mill. Lumber mill is renovated, creating jobs in construction. Lumber mill recieves press and publicity, promoting the mill, sales go up, jobs are added, people are payed, local economy goes up as a result of increased spending. local merchants increase income, and spend at larger companies, there revenues go up...etc...

this maybe a bit idealized, but there is potential. I don't look at this as a big fix, but as a step twds fixing,

 

[The Man]

I forgot to mention the added bonus of imports being down as we will be building more here....and yes that creates MORE jobs.
With all the money going around...we will be blowing more money on non necessity items ...and yes that creates more jobs !!!!!
A fucking job shortage can actually happen..we would need to cut the incentive in about 2 to 3 years !!!!

Educating you and stone is more fun that watching tv !....I enjoy letting you two look like fools...by willing to be wrong to try and make me look like I am wrong......Low bros

Fucking hilarious...dont you guys realize that OTHER people read this shit...and they think you two{tim and stone} are actual morons

:24:

I am saving this to my hard drive to enjoy later.

 

[robdawg1]

I forgot to mention the added bonus of imports being down as we will be building more here....and yes that creates MORE jobs.
With all the money going around...we will be blowing more money on non necessity items ...and yes that creates more jobs !!!!!
A fucking job shortage can actually happen..we would need to cut the incentive in about 2 to 3 years !!!!

Educating you and stone is more fun that watching tv !....I enjoy letting you two look like fools...by willing to be wrong to try and make me look like I am wrong......Low bros

Fucking hilarious...dont you guys realize that OTHER people read this shit...and they think you two{tim and stone} are actual morons

:24:

I am saving this to my hard drive to enjoy later.

Don't get so carried away, it is not a miracle fix. it would be a slow start at best.....Let's not get carried away by fantasy!

 

[The Man]

You guys call it a pipe dream, but look at the benefit. break it down as this:

Joe Public decides to utilize the tax credit to invest in a lumber mill. Lumber mill is renovated, creating jobs in construction. Lumber mill recieves press and publicity, promoting the mill, sales go up, jobs are added, people are payed, local economy goes up as a result of increased spending. local merchants increase income, and spend at larger companies, there revenues go up...etc...

this maybe a bit idealized, but there is potential. I don't look at this as a big fix, but as a step twds fixing,

It will work...as the construction itself is the jump start..there is about 60 percent labor and more toward construction going back to labor and labor of those materials.
So a five million dollar project alone created 3 plus million in labor...which people will spend...emptying that full car lot tim has...which will require more labor to build those cars.
Demand always goes up when more people are working.
The thing is...tim and stone knows it will work....but stone will never do a back pedal...tim may shortly..he usually will just disappear after he is proved wrong however...but stone will argue till 4 30 in the morning trying to twist context

 

[Stone]

You guys call it a pipe dream, but look at the benefit. break it down as this:

Joe Public decides to utilize the tax credit to invest in a lumber mill. Lumber mill is renovated, creating jobs in construction. Lumber mill recieves press and publicity, promoting the mill, sales go up, jobs are added, people are payed, local economy goes up as a result of increased spending. local merchants increase income, and spend at larger companies, there revenues go up...etc...

this maybe a bit idealized, but there is potential. I don't look at this as a big fix, but as a step twds fixing,

Investing in a lumber mill isn't the same as job creation.
If it didn't need renovation, all renovation would be negative to profitability and unnecessary. No new jobs would result.
If it needed renovation, the jobs would have been required no matter the tax credit. No new jobs.
Either way....there was no job 'creation' in your example.

Job creation occurs from business expansion. That includes the jobs for construction/expansion of new buildings/facilities to the jobs of that new or expanded businesses infrastructure.

But you need demand to drive expansion in a capitalistic model.

 

[The Man]

Don't get so carried away, it is not a miracle fix. it would be a slow start at best.....Let's not get carried away by fantasy!

A 2 to 3 point shift makes the world of difference ...as then growth can become fast if there is nothing to drag it down....the economy is at its best here in the states when it about 4 percent unemployment rate....trying to get it lower actually starts having the reverse effect as those 4 of the people just dont want to work..you end up with a slight shortage of workers if you try to cut it further....with a shortage of workers..its a bad time to grow.

 

[Tim]

You guys call it a pipe dream, but look at the benefit. break it down as this:

Joe Public decides to utilize the tax credit to invest in a lumber mill. Lumber mill is renovated, creating jobs in construction. Lumber mill recieves press and publicity, promoting the mill, sales go up, jobs are added, people are payed, local economy goes up as a result of increased spending. local merchants increase income, and spend at larger companies, there revenues go up...etc...

this maybe a bit idealized, but there is potential. I don't look at this as a big fix, but as a step twds fixing,

So who's going to buy the lumber? I mean it's great that he can use what he was going to pay in taxes to expand his business, but what good does that do when housing starts are down and there isn't a market for the lumber?

You actually picked a good example Rob. This is my industry and I can tell you that every single lumber company in my area is hurting. Sales are down and it's not looking good.
If you walked in to any one of them and said that they could use there taxes to expand and grow, they would laugh you out of the building. They are already laying people off until they can ramp up sales.

They don't need more buildings, they don't need tax breaks, they need customers.

It's a demand problem

 

[Tim]

It will work...as the construction itself is the jump start..there is about 60 percent labor and more toward construction going back to labor and labor of those materials.
So a five million dollar project alone created 3 plus million in labor...which people will spend...emptying that full car lot tim has...which will require more labor to build those cars.
Demand always goes up when more people are working.

Does that mean you backed the stimulus spending president Obama did? Because he pumped billions into the economy for rebuilding our infrastructure. It created a lot of good paying construction jobs and pumped new money into the economy.

So you backed him on it?

 

[Stone]

It will work...as the construction itself is the jump start..there is about 60 percent labor and more toward construction going back to labor and labor of those materials.
So a five million dollar project alone created 3 plus million in labor...which people will spend...emptying that full car lot tim has...which will require more labor to build those cars.
Demand always goes up when more people are working.
The thing is...tim and stone knows it will work....but stone will never do a back pedal...tim may shortly..he usually will just disappear after he is proved wrong however...but stone will argue till 4 30 in the morning trying to twist context

More pipe dreams

So a five million dollar project alone created 3 plus million in labor

You just built a project for the purpose of creating wages, with out a profit motive.
That's called......socialism.

 

[Stone]

Does that mean you backed the stimulus spending president Obama did? Because he pumped billions into the economy for rebuilding our infrastructure. It created a lot of good paying construction jobs and pumped new money into the economy.

So you backed him on it?

I believe he called it socialism at the time......something must have changed

 

[The Man]

Investing in a lumber mill isn't the same as job creation.
If it didn't need renovation, all renovation would be negative to profitability and unnecessary. No new jobs would result.
If it needed renovation, the jobs would have been required no matter the tax credit. No new jobs.
Either way....there was no job 'creation' in your example.

Job creation occurs from business expansion. That includes the jobs for construction/expansion of new buildings/facilities to the jobs of that new or expanded businesses infrastructure.

But you need demand to drive expansion in a capitalistic model.

Sure it is...they will open the saw mill and hire workers...we could use more sawmills right here as a matter of fact.
More people will cut trees....workers
Freighted to saw mill...workers
Sorted...workers
Cut...workers
Milled...workers
Stacked...workers
Freight to store..workers
Stacked at store...workers.
Bought by customer.
Deliver...workers
Measure and cut...worker
Equipment for construction...workers.
cars for workers...already built on tims lot.

All these workers make money and have money to blow....CREATING A DEMAND ELSEWHERE.
The added bonus is lumber will be a little cheaper with the extra mill.
Since lumber is cheaper..we can build cheaper
When we can build cheaper..we can spend money on other things
When we spend money on other things..we create more jobs.

Now start reversing the equation above,that's where we are at now.
If you truly do not understand this then you do not understand why we are in the shape we are in now....literally

 

[Stone]

I forgot to mention the added bonus of imports being down as we will be building more here....and yes that creates MORE jobs.
With all the money going around...we will be blowing more money on non necessity items ...and yes that creates more jobs !!!!!
A fucking job shortage can actually happen..we would need to cut the incentive in about 2 to 3 years !!!!

Educating you and stone is more fun that watching tv !....I enjoy letting you two look like fools...by willing to be wrong to try and make me look like I am wrong......Low bros

Fucking hilarious...dont you guys realize that OTHER people read this shit...and they think you two{tim and stone} are actual morons

:24:

I am saving this to my hard drive to enjoy later.

Just saw this ^^^

So....why do you think the Auto industry needs more tax credits if they are already expanding to meet consumer demands?
This actually disproves your claims that investment tax credits create consumer demand.
It's the opposite......consumer demand created the need for more car production thus creating expansion of production and resulting in new jobs.
That is the capitalist way.


That is not the socialist model you proposed with lumber

I am saving this to my hard drive to enjoy later

I am, too

 

[The Man]

Does that mean you backed the stimulus spending president Obama did? Because he pumped billions into the economy for rebuilding our infrastructure. It created a lot of good paying construction jobs and pumped new money into the economy.

So you backed him on it?

The only thing he did was spend money on roads.....while it created some labor and the need of some supplies.
There is no money to be made from a road....A road cant produce anything.
it cant make lets say and end table made in America.
Second the roads already had repair schedules...now this is what happened...he put the roads ahead of schedule.
The god damn road crews already had schedules !!! they were not the ones in need of jobs,,,its was the jobless that needed jobs !!!!
Third,,,now that the roads are ahead of schedule...many of those people are now jobless !!!!
Fourth...its was all a waste...as they were ahead of schedule...just like going to the tire shop to get new tires when you still have half tread !!!!...every god damn dime was a fucking waste !!!

No I did not support it....as it caused no growth !!
He would have been better off spending it on something that wasn't on a schedule !!
So no...he is a moron when it comes to economics.
He would have been better off just tossing it in the street....as people would have spent it...when people are buying stuff someone has to work to make the stuff people are buying!!

Its called science !

 

[Stone]

Sure it is...they will open the saw mill and hire workers...we could use more sawmills right here as a matter of fact.
More people will cut trees....workers
Freighted to saw mill...workers
Sorted...workers
Cut...workers
Milled...workers
Stacked...workers
Freight to store..workers
Stacked at store...workers.
Bought by customer.
Deliver...workers
Measure and cut...worker
Equipment for construction...workers.
cars for workers...already built on tims lot.

All these workers make money and have money to blow....CREATING A DEMAND ELSEWHERE.
The added bonus is lumber will be a little cheaper with the extra mill.
Since lumber is cheaper..we can build cheaper
When we can build cheaper..we can spend money on other things
When we spend money on other things..we create more jobs.

Now start reversing the equation above,that's where we are at now.
If you truly do not understand this then you do not understand why we are in the shape we are in now....literally

Still a pipe dream



All you are doing is following a socialist economic model.
You are initially theorizing a model to create wages with out it being profit motivated...and that is socialism.

 

[Stone]

The only thing he did was spend money on roads.....while it created some labor and the need of some supplies.
There is no money to be made from a road....A road cant produce anything.
it cant make lets say and end table made in America.
Second the roads already had repair schedules...now this is what happened...he put the roads ahead of schedule.
The god damn road crews already had schedules !!! they were not the ones in need of jobs,,,its was the jobless that needed jobs !!!!
Third,,,now that the roads are ahead of schedule...many of those people are now jobless !!!!
Fourth...its was all a waste...as they were ahead of schedule...just like going to the tire shop to get new tires when you still have half tread !!!!...every god damn dime was a fucking waste !!!

No I did not support it....as it caused no growth !!
He would have been better off spending it on something that wasn't on a schedule !!
So no...he is a moron when it comes to economics.
He would have been better off just tossing it in the street....as people would have spent it...when people are buying stuff someone has to work to make the stuff people are buying!!

Its called science !

You do make up a lot of shit you post in this forum.
Here's a list of how the stimulus monies were spent.

http://www.propublica.org/special/the-stimulus-plan-a-detailed-list-of-spending

Its called science !

Of the uninformed

 

[Stone]

Good night bubba

 

[The Man]

Still a pipe dream



All you are doing is following a socialist economic model.
You are initially theorizing a model to create wages with out it being profit motivated...and that is socialism.

Whatever you say stone...let me have 5 million FREE dollars to set up a furniture factory...you bet.
I will make the god damnest cheapest coffee table you even seen.
I have nothing to lose! it was a free start....and when the cheap fuckers break I will sell more.
The people at the saw mill will stay busy....thus being able to buys tims cars !
And remember the furniture factory has to be built to begin with..creating a need for the sawmill to begin with.
When people are working they are buying stuff,,,when people are buying stuff it creates workers..those workers buy more stuff.
Seriously...if you put some people to work..it creates a demand elsewhere..which causes more jobs.
When people lose jobs we have less money to blow...thus people buy less stuff this puts more people out of work.
This is why the economy is always going up and down...a little shift and the rest follows.
Hell just a simple little invention that caught on could be all it takes to fix the problem...or the need for something dieing out can cause the same problem we have now.
it is usually controlled by adjusting the taxes...lower if the economy slows to give people extra buying power so they buy stuff and keep people in jobs..raise taxes if it is growing to fast.
problem is we have poor piloting of the economy....as shown by them wanting to raise taxes in a slowed economy.
A tax change can take 3 years to stabilize off to have the current economy...its going to be rough ahead if they raise taxes if growth is to slow.

 

[The Man]

You do make up a lot of shit you post in this forum.
Here's a list of how the stimulus monies were spent.

http://www.propublica.org/special/the-stimulus-plan-a-detailed-list-of-spending




Of the uninformed

Your link shows most of the money going to govt agencies...again no growth....growth of govt...which causes the debt problem we have...which leads to increased taxes which slows the economy..which cause more welfare which causes more taxes which further slows the economy
And as said the roads were a waste and caused no growth.
Why put roads ahead of schedule when trillions in debt and later want to raise taxes?..money that could have went to debt....by the money not going to debt,,interest has grown further increasing the need for further taxes which will further slow the economy...poor decision making....obviously written out by staffers who do not have the interest of the people in mind...not necessarily the fault of the president mind you..other than he did endorse it.