Divine Hiddenness

[sexysadie]

Thats the understatement of the year! Your definition of logic is "It must be right with zero proof if I want it to be true." :24:

While yours is.......I don't understand it therefore it must be false.

 

[edgray]

I'm in the opposite boat... I've considered science, and I don't find that science can disprove God. I've done my own research, and have looked at the various different possibilities. But I have come to the conclusion that for myself, the existence of God is the only thing that makes sense.

Well it hasn't 100% disproved anything. I'm ready to admit the outside possibility of their being a God, I'm totally convinced it bears no relation to anything taught in the Bible.

But, what it has done is removed God from our world. From where man came from, to how the Earth itself was formed. This is all covered now. To the point where God cannot exist in the natural world any more. Which puts him in the unknown area of the supernatural, or it puts him before the universe as the spark behind the big bang.

 

[Peter Parka]

The argument there is that Pangea still existed at that point in history; so the gathering of the animals wouldn't have been nearly as difficult a premise as it would be today. As far as Noah building an ark big enough... it's still within the realm of possibility. Look at the pyramids... we have no clue how the Egyptians had the technology necessary to build them, and yet they're there.

Must have been a bloody big boat! I've been to London zoo which contains a fraction of all the animals on earth and you need all day to walk round it!
Following on from that, how comes if the ark landed somewhere in the middle east, you only get kangaroos in Australia and there is no fossil evidence of them ever living anwhere but? Did the moment they got out of the ark, they all just hopped across Asia, swam across the Indian Ocean and setted in Australia?

 

[edgray]

The argument there is that Pangea still existed at that point in history; so the gathering of the animals wouldn't have been nearly as difficult a premise as it would be today. As far as Noah building an ark big enough... it's still within the realm of possibility. Look at the pyramids... we have no clue how the Egyptians had the technology necessary to build them, and yet they're there.

Pangaea was millions upon millions of years ago!

And the pyramids are pretty explainable http://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html

 

[sexysadie]

Pangaea was millions upon millions of years ago!

And the pyramids are pretty explainable http://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html

Then go ahead....in your own words, explain them.

 

[edgray]

By the way everyone, this debate rocks, enjoying it muchly

 

[Peter Parka]

While yours is.......I don't understand it therefore it must be false.

I never said it must be false, unlike you. I just think it is so very far fetched that it is highly unlikely. You on the other hand discount stuff which there is some plausible argument for because you want to believe in fairy stories that have nothing whatsoever to back them up.

 

[edgray]

Then go ahead....in your own words, explain them.

Yeah a lot of people took large rocks from a quarry and put them in a pyramid structure that a guy designed.

Pretty similar to how we build stuff these days really, just with more slaves I imagine, and a lot more sweat.

 

[TommyTooter]

A question to believers:

We know that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. And that life started on Earth over 65 million years ago. We are the pinnacle of the evolution that took place over that period.

With this knowledge, how can we possibly believe documents that claim God made the Earth in 6 days? Or that He created man?

hebrew theologians will accept the scientific timeline as being valid from a human perspective and dismiss the discrepancy in time frame with the teaching that a day to god is like a thousand years to man.

they go on to say the order of events, as given in moses' genesis accounts, is congruent with the scientific theories of big bang and evolution.

 

[sexysadie]

I never said it must be false, unlike you. I just think it is so very far fetched that it is highly unlikely. You on the other hand discount stuff which there is some plausible argument for because you want to believe in fairy stories that have nothing whatsoever to back them up.

I know what you're saying Peter, don't you think I've been where you are? I don't mean to sound all knowing because that couldn't be further from the truth.....but can't you see how it can get your back up when somebody suggests that something you believe in and trust is nothing but total hogwash?

 

[edgray]

hebrew theologians will accept the scientific timeline as being valid from a human perspective and dismiss the discrepancy in time frame with the teaching that a day to god is like a thousand years to man.

they go on to say the order of events, as given in moses' genesis accounts, is congruent with the scientific theories of big bang and evolution.

that sounds awfully convenient! So they're rewriting their history?

I don't think times match up tho.

the universe is 13.7 billion years old.
the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
life on Earth is over 700 million years old.
modern man is 200,000 years old, give or take.

The 1000 year to 1 day schedule would have to be logarithmic at the very least...

 

[sexysadie]

Yeah a lot of people took large rocks from a quarry and put them in a pyramid structure that a guy designed.

Pretty similar to how we build stuff these days really, just with more slaves I imagine, and a lot more sweat.

Are you sure about that?

 

[TommyTooter]

Yeah a lot of people took large rocks from a quarry and put them in a pyramid structure that a guy designed.

Pretty similar to how we build stuff these days really, just with more slaves I imagine, and a lot more sweat.

there are some engineering problems that puzzle archaeologists about those blocks. they're rather heavy and difficult to move. they would crush logs. i'm not in the mood to do the math, but how many slaves do you think it takes to move a 20 ton block however many miles it was from the quarry to the site and how many blocks did they stack up in those three pyramids? how long do you think that took?

 

[sexysadie]

that sounds awfully convenient! So they're rewriting their history?

I don't think times match up tho.

the universe is 13.7 billion years old.
the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
life on Earth is over 700 million years old.
modern man is 200,000 years old, give or take.

The 1000 year to 1 day schedule would have to be logarithmic at the very least...

Where do you get your numbers?

 

[retro]

:24: Oh Retro, everything anyone says that disagrees with something you think is an "agenda". My God, you're not Glenn Beck in disguise are you? Come on, that line of thinking is getting tired and stale and you're better than that.

Definition of AGENDA

1 : a list or outline of things to be considered or done <agendas of faculty meetings>
2 : an underlying often ideological plan or program <a political agenda>

I truly don't understand why you take such offense to my use of the word. Everyone has their own agenda, I do, you do, everybody.

Hmm. I see the political and religious setting at the time, but I just don't think that level of wow could have been overlooked by anyone. Do you not think someone, outside of highly religious, would have recorded them?

They're recorded in the gospels... which was good enough for the Christians at the time. We've already covered why the Romans wouldn't have, and the same goes for the Jewish leaders. The lack of records doesn't disprove existence. Josephus had this to say, and yes I realize it is a disputed passage:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

The people that would have had the means to record miracles and such would have almost certainly had to have been either a) the highly religious or b) the highly educated. We've discussed why the highly religious would not want to do so. We've also touched on why the highly educated would not like these things recorded either. The highly educated would generally have been members of the Roman "ruling class", or people educated by them. It's not as though every Ben, Joe, and Jacob (haha, see what I did there) had access to a computer and a blog on which to post their thoughts about Jesus and the miracles that he performed.

No I don't believe it is. Because, like the reasons below, there are things that you're not taking into consideration too. The main one being the natural laws of the universe. The fact that since these times, so many of the claims made in the religious scripts are simply wrong.

So on our side we have:

• The natural world
• The lack of recorded evidence
• The knowledge of the many falsehoods in religious scripts

Man breaks "natural laws" of the universe on a regular basis. It was a natural law of the universe that the sun revolved around the earth for a long time... until proven otherwise. Just because our scientists of today believe something to be an "unbreakable law" doesn't mean that scientists in 10, 50, 100, or 1,000 years won't discover what we know to day as laws to be guidelines. When someone's heart stops beating today, there is still a chance of re-starting it and bringing them back to life. What would be viewed as a miracle 50+ years ago is relatively medically common-place today.

On the flip side there is:

• Some political reasons these things weren't recorded.

But they were recorded, just not by sources that you choose to believe. They're in the Gospels, and the existence of Jesus was recorded by Josephus, who made mention of the "wonderful works" he performed. Jesus is also mentioned by other historical authors of the day. There also exists the possibility that things were recorded by other third parties that we weren't aware of, but their writings have been lost to history. We simply don't know.

No you see it's not just the fact it wasn't recorded. It's the masses and masses of scientific enquiry that has left no room for miracles I'm afraid. The non-recording of these miracles just adds a little more fuel to the fire.

Science leaves no room for miracles? What about the people that "miraculously" are cured of cancer, with no medical explanation for how it happened? Diseases that we thought incurable 50 years ago are treated on a daily basis by physicians.

 

[retro]

Must have been a bloody big boat! I've been to London zoo which contains a fraction of all the animals on earth and you need all day to walk round it!
Following on from that, how comes if the ark landed somewhere in the middle east, you only get kangaroos in Australia and there is no fossil evidence of them ever living anwhere but? Did the moment they got out of the ark, they all just hopped across Asia, swam across the Indian Ocean and setted in Australia?

Pangea and yeah, it would've had to be a remarkably big boat. An engineering feat that we don't understand... much like the pyramids.

 

[edgray]

Are you sure about that?

not 100%.

But, and this is really the whole point, every possible avenue of rational thought and investigation should be carried out before anything can be attributed to anything mystical.

there are some engineering problems that puzzle archaeologists about those blocks. they're rather heavy and difficult to move. they would crush logs. i'm not in the mood to do the math, but how many slaves do you think it takes to move a 20 ton block however many miles it was from the quarry to the site and how many blocks did they stack up in those three pyramids? how long do you think that took?

Here's a great site by a hobbyist that explains pretty much everything in good detail.

http://www.catchpenny.org/

By the way, in modern times we have moved massive structures far heavier than the blocks used in the pyramids with similar techniques.

Where do you get your numbers?

They're available from any scientific book, any scientific website.

 

[TommyTooter]

that sounds awfully convenient! So they're rewriting their history?

I don't think times match up tho.

the universe is 13.7 billion years old.
the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
life on Earth is over 700 million years old.
modern man is 200,000 years old, give or take.

The 1000 year to 1 day schedule would have to be logarithmic at the very least...

you know what?

first off, i said 'hebrew', not 'christian'. the hebrew calendar dates from adam, not the beginning of time. the geneology is very clearly given throughout the old testament and into the geneology of jesus through joseph in the gospel of mark.

now it's your turn to show some proof. all you're doing is rattling off numbers without citing authority.

 

[sexysadie]

not 100%.

But, and this is really the whole point, every possible avenue of rational thought and investigation should be carried out before anything can be attributed to anything mystical.



Here's a great site by a hobbyist that explains pretty much everything in good detail.

http://www.catchpenny.org/

By the way, in modern times we have moved massive structures far heavier than the blocks used in the pyramids with similar techniques.



They're available from any scientific book, any scientific website.

I'm not surprised.

 

[retro]

Pangaea was millions upon millions of years ago!

And the pyramids are pretty explainable http://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html

That's a pretty pathetically simplistic explanation for one of the marvels of the ancient world. However they were built, it took some serious technology at the time for them to be able to build them. Some of the stones used to build them weighed upwards of 80 tons... imagine the ridiculous amount of manpower necessary to simply move one of those... and that's not even beginning to consider how they were carved precisely to begin with. We also haven't considered the precise jointing of pieces used by the Egyptians either.

The bottom line is that thousands of years later, we still don't fully understand how the pyramids were constructed.