Did You Serve ?

[Stone]

Obama advocated in favor of the war in Afghanistan before he was President

He avoided serving in the military

So I guess that makes him a chickenhawk

I've been thinking about replying to this post since I first read it but my attention was diverted elsewhere.

And it's not about Obama.

It's about Bush.

As a young man, of privilege and wealth, he faced the draft just as all did of that age, but it was during a war.
He didn't dodge the draft, but influence did push him to the front of a long line of applicants at the Texas Air National Guard where he was trained as a fighter pilot in a jet fighter planned for decommissioning.
GW Bush became a President and led the US into a costly and unnecessary invasion of Iraq that appears to have added considerably to the instability of the Middle East.

If any President was ever worthy of being called a chickenhawk.....it's 'bring it on' GW Bush.

 

[Alien Allen]

I've been thinking about replying to this post since I first read it but my attention was diverted elsewhere.

And it's not about Obama.

It's about Bush.

As a young man, of privilege and wealth, he faced the draft just as all did of that age, but it was during a war.
He didn't dodge the draft, but influence did push him to the front of a long line of applicants at the Texas Air National Guard where he was trained as a fighter pilot in a jet fighter planned for decommissioning.
GW Bush became a President and led the US into a costly and unnecessary invasion of Iraq that appears to have added considerably to the instability of the Middle East.

If any President was ever worthy of being called a chickenhawk.....it's 'bring it on' GW Bush.

not much to argue with here

 

[The Man]

Truthfully, now.......didn't I predict you'd get desperate?

Now you're begging for John to arrive----------------->




TM, you brought this on yourself.
man-up.

I will disclose my military history upon Johns arrival

 

[Stone]

I will disclose my military history upon Johns arrival

Doesn't the concept of having a military record conflict with what you told me in private?



( I wasn't kidding about being manipulated, TM )

 

[The Man]

And I don't believe you and I've stated why.

The issue wasnt whether I approved or not.
Its that I wouldnt agree with you on anti "the legalization of torture"...which was your position.{over there}
Thus we never agreed.
That was my entire point back then...was to not agree with you
Of course no one wants torture legal stone.
Nor would I have taken that position if it was illegal at the time.
You built your argument over it was torture...when the law or lack of said it wasnt.
Water boarding wasnt declared torture at the time it happened to those guys....so it was legal.
Not sure what happened after that...it is probably not legal now.
What pissed me off is how it went down...The govt throwing everyone under the bus...the same govt that had em board to begin with.
The people{citizens} from the USA chanting how barbarian we are{were}....thats what scalped my ass.
I supported the troops and the CIA....and still do.

TBO I think AA knows more about this than either of us{technically}...I never followed up on it much after the thread fizzled off.

Anyway...got to run be back in a couple 3 hours....time to plaster my ass to the car seat for a while.

 

[Stone]

The issue wasnt whether I approved or not.
Its that I wouldnt agree with you on anti "the legalization of torture"...which was your position.{over there}
Thus we never agreed.
That was my entire point back then...was to not agree with you
Of course no one wants torture legal stone.
Nor would I have taken that position if it was illegal at the time.
You built your argument over it was torture...when the law or lack of said it wasnt.
Water boarding wasnt declared torture at the time it happened to those guys....so it was legal.
Not sure what happened after that...it is probably not legal now.
What pissed me off is how it went down...The govt throwing everyone under the bus...the same govt that had em board to begin with.
The people{citizens} from the USA chanting how barbarian we are{were}....thats what scalped my ass.
I supported the troops and the CIA....and still do.

TBO I think AA knows more about this than either of us{technically}...I never followed up on it much after the thread fizzled off.

Anyway...got to run be back in a couple 3 hours....time to plaster my ass to the car seat for a while.

Not interested in your convoluted logic.............our debate is finished and ended poorly for you....man-up

 

[Alien Allen]

I don't know anymore about it than you two

I just was of the opinion that it was legal at the time since Gonzales had determined it to be. And that until a court or legislation determined otherwise it was still legal. So in effect it could not be called illegal waterboarding until after a court or legislature made it illegal.

Not that interested in researching but I don't believe a court ever ruled. Not even sure there was legislation to ban it. Me thinks it was just a policy decision to stop it.

Also somebody earlier talked of their it being used hundreds or thousands of times. The issue of waterboarding was regarding that being done at Gitmo. And to the best of my knowledge it was used on three people. I don't believe there was any evidence it was used was widespread as that poster alleged.

One has to separate the moral context from the legalese and that for some is impossible it seams.

 

[CityGirl]

Could we have a poll within this poll to determine who has lost their credibility?

 

[Stone]

Could we have a poll within this poll to determine who has lost their credibility?

.....................:thumbup

 

[Stone]

......................

One has to separate the moral context from the legalese and that for some is impossible it seams.

Indeed.

 

[porterjack]

Could we have a poll within this poll to determine who has lost their credibility?

this

i want see my chad hang

 

[The Man]

Looks like a no show by John......chickenshit
The draft era was over when I came of age....all volunteer
I wanted to join the army to hopefully see a little of the world{hopefully Germany}..use it on a resume and enjoy benefits later.
I passed the physical.
I did exceeding well on a section of the aptitude test...to well and was accused of cheating ..they wanted to know where I got the answers..I was held up for several hours as a result and questioned by a group of people.
{The section that had the boxes you fold etc}
One section I done poorly on as I was was off by one {on each question} so my answers weren't going to the proper question on much of the later of that section...It was a fail but they did point out the reason for such and pointed out I messed up on the sequence.
The other sections were fine...passed.
I was told to make another go at it later...I dont even remember now how long,6 weeks 3 months was a long time ago
I was getting the run around upon trying again after the wait was up....I just wasnt going to get in.

I was directed to the navy later who turned me down in very short order due to dwi or weed charges.
Then the airforce did the same....The navy turned me down for either the weed or DWIs and the AF turned me down for the other.
No physical or anything I just didn't qualify due to my history.
Sucked..as I was after the medical benefits...as I have an unusual medical condition
Which was neither mentioned by me or caught by them during the physical btw.
Chickenshit perhaps as my motive was the benefits rather than "serve"....but I am not a chicken hawk.

 

[The Man]

I don't know anymore about it than you two

I just was of the opinion that it was legal at the time since Gonzales had determined it to be. And that until a court or legislation determined otherwise it was still legal. So in effect it could not be called illegal waterboarding until after a court or legislature made it illegal.

Not that interested in researching but I don't believe a court ever ruled. Not even sure there was legislation to ban it. Me thinks it was just a policy decision to stop it.

Also somebody earlier talked of their it being used hundreds or thousands of times. The issue of waterboarding was regarding that being done at Gitmo. And to the best of my knowledge it was used on three people. I don't believe there was any evidence it was used was widespread as that poster alleged.

One has to separate the moral context from the legalese and that for some is impossible it seams.

I dont really remember either,,but "one of the lawyers" "B" I think it was...pointed out it was legal at the time.
I think the only thing needed to change it was a few strokes of the pen...a policy change as you say.
As far as I remember there were going to be no more boardings...but not sure of the legislation involved

 

[The Man]

Not interested in your convoluted logic.............our debate is finished and ended poorly for you....man-up

It was the very basis for the argument....you took the moral position I took the factual position.
Any twisting had to be done on your end not mine...as they had at the time determined it wasnt torture.
You said it was torture....the law said otherwise.
Your argument was flawed from the beginning.

 

[The Man]

Doesn't the concept of having a military record conflict with what you told me in private?



( I wasn't kidding about being manipulated, TM )

You are losing it...a military history doesnt have to be "served" to be filled.
I am sure they keep all records.


Everything has a history stone.

 

[Alien Allen]

well hopefully that puts an end to this

no idea why this was so hard to state before TM

surely it does not divulge anything that is that noteworthy

 

[Stone]

Looks like a no show by John......chickenshit
The draft era was over when I came of age....all volunteer
I wanted to join the army to hopefully see a little of the world{hopefully Germany}..use it on a resume and enjoy benefits later.
I passed the physical.
I did exceeding well on a section of the aptitude test...to well and was accused of cheating ..they wanted to know where I got the answers..I was held up for several hours as a result and questioned by a group of people.
{The section that had the boxes you fold etc}
One section I done poorly on as I was was off by one {on each question} so my answers weren't going to the proper question on much of the later of that section...It was a fail but they did point out the reason for such and pointed out I messed up on the sequence.
The other sections were fine...passed.
I was told to make another go at it later...I dont even remember now how long,6 weeks 3 months was a long time ago
I was getting the run around upon trying again after the wait was up....I just wasnt going to get in.

I was directed to the navy later who turned me down in very short order due to dwi or weed charges.
Then the airforce did the same....The navy turned me down for either the weed or DWIs and the AF turned me down for the other.
No physical or anything I just didn't qualify due to my history.
Sucked..as I was after the medical benefits...as I have an unusual medical condition
Which was neither mentioned by me or caught by them during the physical btw.
Chickenshit perhaps as my motive was the benefits rather than "serve"....but I am not a chicken hawk.

You could have said 'no' from the very beginning...

Dumbass


You wait till you've killed off all your credibility and then post that explanation.......
Do you think many care or even believe you now?

 

[Stone]

It was the very basis for the argument....you took the moral position I took the factual position.
Any twisting had to be done on your end not mine...as they had at the time determined it wasnt torture.
You said it was torture....the law said otherwise.
Your argument was flawed from the beginning.

I think anyone reading this objectively understands you accepted torture as a moral activity.
And posting otherwise at this web site untruthful.

 

[Francis]

You are losing it...a military history doesnt have to be "served" to be filled.
I am sure they keep all records.


Everything has a history stone.

Oh I see..

So I guess my response should be changed to Yes.. I did apply to both the Canadian Military and US Military..

Seeing both have a "record" of my application and legit high security clearance I guess by your definition it means I served.

Fantastic.. :thumbup

MODs please change mine to Yes per "The Man's" new standard of this Poll..

 

[Alien Allen]

You guys forget that Bill Clinton changed the dictionary

Remember it all boils down to what the definition of "IS" ..... is