Bullycide in America

[edgray]

Here is where you are wrong.

And where do you suppose bullies belong? Talking to you on the street or at your place of residence? They need monitored counseling and if it has to be in a psych ward or a juvenile detention center then so be it. What is so wrong with a psych ward? You get good counseling there, it's air conditioned, one on one and group therapy, they will learn coping skills, and be rehabilitated. Bullying is a disorder IMO which needs to be addressed when they first show signs of it. If it isn't then they grow up to be more destructive. Maybe and I say maybe even criminals.

You might know about psych wards in your country but this isn't about your country specifically. This is about bullying in the US and I know how the system works here. You don't.

If you were to lock up every bully in the world you'd be locking up a significant proportion of society. That would be lunacy.

Also, bullying, as I've pointed out before is a learned behaviour. It can be reversed. But locking them up is not going to do that.

I know how psyche wards work in the US, and they're as equally ineffective as wards over here. We studied the US system mostly in psychology, as that's where most of the studies have taken place. I have firsthand experience of psyche wards in the UK. These are not places to change bullying.

Bullying is not an illness, nor is it a psychosis of any kind. And so it doesn't belong in a psyche ward.

Bullies aren't criminals, until they commit an actual offense, such as GBH, so until then they don't belong in prison.

But to answer your question: I believe strongly in keeping as many people out of the penal system as possible. Bullies are not murderers. Most bullying barely even makes it to physical assault. Study after study after study has shown how ineffectual the penal system is at stopping recidivism and has a tendency to turn otherwise very petty criminals into serious ones. So my question to you is, why on Earth do you support a system that doesn't work?

I agree in needs to be nipped in the bud. But that responsibility is yours, mine, and every other twat in society, NOT the criminal justice system.

So, again, where exactly am I wrong?

 

[darkangel]

A psych ward is not part of the criminal justice system. WRONG! You must have flunked that part of your US Psychology class. :willy_nilly:

 

[edgray]

A psych ward is not part of the criminal justice system. WRONG! You must have flunked that part of your US Psychology class. :willy_nilly:

But putting someone in a psyche ward requires a legal process. Unless you put yourself in there, or your family members. Try again.

 

[edgray]

You really are trying to nitpick at the funniest things. It's like we're talking about the entire universe and you're banging on about some atom somewhere...

 

[darkangel]

But putting someone in a psyche ward requires a legal process. Unless you put yourself in there, or your family members. Try again.

What don't you understand? The only legal process is that a police officer gives you a ride there and that's it. They don't arrest you. They are literally a free cab ride. Then the psych ward itself will determine if you need 30 day treatment or less. The psych ward is not part of the criminal justice system unless you have plead insanity to a crime and convicted due to insanity. Then that's where the legal aspect comes in. But we're not talking about criminals. We're talking about bullies who need therapy to stop the inappropriate behavior.

 

[darkangel]

You really are trying to nitpick at the funniest things. It's like we're talking about the entire universe and you're banging on about some atom somewhere...

We can start a thread about that if you want too. :willy_nilly:

 

[edgray]

What don't you understand? The only legal process is that a police officer gives you a ride there and that's it. They don't arrest you. They are literally a free cab ride. Then the psych ward itself will determine if you need 30 day treatment or less. The psych ward is not part of the criminal justice system unless you have plead insanity to a crime and convicted due to insanity. Then that's where the legal aspect comes in. But we're not talking about criminals. We're talking about bullies who need therapy to stop the inappropriate behavior.

So you can take someone suspected of bullying and lock them up against their will in a psyche ward with no court order or not legal means? Of course you can! And they'd march in there as happy as Larry.

The study we looked at looked in depth at how ineffective psyche wards are at not only diagnosing problems, but also fixing them. They have an appalling success rate, and are considered incredibly bad by most psychologists on the planet.

 

[edgray]

Oh, this might be interesting for you:

Some, such as the United States, require a court hearing if the individual is hospitalized more than briefly. In most states, police officers and designated mental health professionals can require a brief commitment of an individual for psychiatric evaluation. If the individual is evaluated as needing further hospitalization, a court order must be obtained. Doctors, psychologists and/or psychiatrists present written reports to the court and in some cases testify before the judge. The person who is involuntarily hospitalized, in most U.S. jurisdictions, has access to counsel. A commitment is always time-limited and requires reevaluation at fixed intervals.

 

[darkangel]

So you can take someone suspected of bullying and lock them up against their will in a psyche ward with no court order or not legal means? Of course you can! And they'd march in there as happy as Larry.

Of course you need a court order if a crime was committed. What I'm talking about is if say in a school someone is being bullied then they should have to be court ordered for a psych evaluation which could be 3 days to 30 days or more depending on the situation. If they are a harm to society then that's what should happen. But once they enter the psych ward they become a ward of the state. No free will. What bully deserves free will when they are harming others? I'm not saying that they need be arrested for that. Just detained until they reach the facility.

The study we looked at looked in depth at how ineffective psyche wards are at not only diagnosing problems, but also fixing them. They have an appalling success rate, and are considered incredibly bad by most psychologists on the planet.

Do you have a link for that study?

 

[edgray]

Of course you need a court order if a crime was committed. What I'm talking about is if say in a school someone is being bullied then they should have to be court ordered for a psych evaluation which could be 3 days to 30 days or more depending on the situation. If they are a harm to society then that's what should happen. But once they enter the psych ward they become a ward of the state. No free will. What bully deserves free will when they are harming others? I'm not saying that they need be arrested for that. Just detained until they reach the facility.

Ok now I'm confused because you said a court order wasn't needed.

Do you have a link for that study?

I'll have to dig them out, but the most famous one was the Rosenhan Experiment, which shows that these places couldn't even diagnose a common cold if someone sneezed on them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

 

[darkangel]

Ok now I'm confused because you said a court order wasn't needed.

My mistake. My Bad. Oopps. I'm tired. What other excuse do you want? A court order is needed.

I'll have to dig them out, but the most famous one was the Rosenhan Experiment, which shows that these places couldn't even diagnose a common cold if someone sneezed on them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

I don't read WIKI. Anyone can submit info there and it's not a reliable source. Sorry...

 

[edgray]

My mistake. My Bad. Oopps. I'm tired. What other excuse do you want? A court order is needed.

I don't read WIKI. Anyone can submit info there and it's not a reliable source. Sorry...

A study of wikipedia shows it's pretty much as reliable as any other encyclopedia. It's a world famous study, you can find it everywhere, just search online, or even head to your local library:

http://psychrights.org/articles/rosenham.htm
http://www.holah.karoo.net/rosenhan.htm
http://clinical-psychology.suite101.com/article.cfm/the-rosenhan-experiment-a-summary
http://www.layscience.net/?q=node/129
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ5l5Npfdsg

the Wikipedia article is fully sourced and cited.

 

[Kyle B]

Ok now I'm confused because you said a court order wasn't needed.



I'll have to dig them out, but the most famous one was the Rosenhan Experiment, which shows that these places couldn't even diagnose a common cold if someone sneezed on them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

Stupid study if you ask me. If you go into a psychiatric facility and fake an illness, how can you expect them to seriously believe you when you claim you're cured?

 

[edgray]

Stupid study if you ask me. If you go into a psychiatric facility and fake an illness, how can you expect them to seriously believe you when you claim you're cured?

well it was highly controversial but really highlighted the quackery that is psychiatry.

For example, the patients were sectioned and even when they told them they were faking they weren't allowed to leave.

It shook the world of psychiatry to the core and lost psychiatrists any last shred of respect they had in the scientific community.

 

[darkangel]

I'm sorry ed but I believe that bullies need therapy and should get it no matter how it has to come about. There's nothing that you can give me to read that will change my mind on that. Unless you can give me an article that states how bullies can be cured of their destructive behavior toward other kids. Keep in mind that kids are committing suicide and dying because of bullies.

 

[darkangel]

well it was highly controversial but really highlighted the quackery that is psychiatry.

For example, the patients were sectioned and even when they told them they were faking they weren't allowed to leave.

It shook the world of psychiatry to the core and lost psychiatrists any last shred of respect they had in the scientific community.

That's a reliable source then right? :sarcasm

 

[Abcinthia]

I don't want to get involved with this argument. All I wanted to say was that the Rosenhan experiement is quite old and all recent studies and experiments like it have not got his results. After his experiments, it showed faults but since then they have been addressed to try and make healthcare better.

And now I shall leave this thread. Woosh! (that's the noise I make when I leave a thread never to return)

 

[edgray]

I'm sorry ed but I believe that bullies need therapy and should get it no matter how it has to come about. There's nothing that you can give me to read that will change my mind on that. Unless you can give me an article that states how bullies can be cured of their destructive behavior toward other kids. Keep in mind that kids are committing suicide and dying because of bullies.

I know and that was why I so shocked at the lack of outrage when you started the thread.

You're claiming they can be cured in psyche wards, I'm saying it's not a psychological disorder and therefore it cannot be fixed with therapy. And also that psychiatry is quackery anyway. I think the burden of proof lies with you seeing as you want to lock people up.

Bullying can be classed as a petty crime at best, as very few instances of bullying result in injury or death. So I don't think it's a legal responsibility until a current law is broken.

What I do believe is that this is one thing we should all be involved in. Every one of us. Bullying behaviour can be stopped at a young age by parents, schools and the bully's on contemporaries. I'd be more happy with a system that punishes the parents of bullies, perhaps that might shake them up a bit and make them take responsibility for the little monsters they are letting out into the world.

 

[Kyle B]

Ed,

Do you think all psychiatry is quackery?

 

[edgray]

That's a reliable source then right? :sarcasm

It's one of the first major studies you look at in Psychology. So yes, it's a pretty reliable source. It was controversial because of it's methods.

I don't want to get involved with this argument. All I wanted to say was that the Rosenhan experiement is quite old and all recent studies and experiments like it have not got his results. After his experiments, it showed faults but since then they have been addressed to try and make healthcare better.

And now I shall leave this thread. Woosh! (that's the noise I make when I leave a thread never to return)

True, it is old, and no doubt psyquackery has taken leaps and bounds since then, but it's still valid and it's still taught in Psychology for that reason.