americans need to pay higher taxes

[anathelia]

Okay so lets tax the 47% who don't pay taxes when we get out of this and when they get jobs instead of throwing all of the responsibility on people with money


and sorry I'm just not convinced that even half of that number is totally unemployed. People who are underpaid don't count.

LOL, you get to pick and choose what you want to believe about the truth? I'll be sure to start paying taxes with that money I'm not making. I'm not sure where I'm going to get it, but since you obviously think it's MORE FAIR to tell people who barely make enough money to support their families or who don't make any money because the economy is in the shitter than to just raise taxes as a whole, I gotta figure it out somehow, right?

There is no logic in that.

And just to be clear, I am aware that the spending our government is doing is out of control. I merely proposed that if we raised taxes, it would help to pay down the deficit. I also said in my initial post that there are a lot of things that need to be done to fix the issues we're having in this country financially, but no one in this thread is apparently interested in reading an entire post.

 

[All Else Failed]

Now you're just being completely obtuse. I don't even know how else to respond to that absolutely idiotic comment.

why



if even half that number are unemployed then when things get better and they find employment we should be able to tax their income, correct? That is what an income tax is for.


Recessions like these pass.

 

[Accountable]

Actually, you know what, fuck this. The income tax shouldn't even exist.


Flat tax.

Gotta get that pesky amendment repealed, but I'm with ya.

 

[All Else Failed]

:24:

So this is what happens when you get completely owned... you try to change the premise of your argument. I'm impressed. :thumbup

You do realize that a flat tax would still be an income tax though, right? It's a flat percentage taken from everyone's earnings. All it really does is eliminate the progressive tax structure that is in place right now, and replaces it with a single tax bracket. I'm not disagreeing that we need serious tax reform in this country, but you seem to be completely clueless about what those reforms actually mean.

How am I being "ownd"? You guys seem to be fine with a minority funding everything.


I realize what a flat tax is. It is a *different* income tax. When I said "fuck the income tax" I'm saying that ours is broken and it should be replaced.

LOL, you get to pick and choose what you want to believe about the truth? I'll be sure to start paying taxes with that money I'm not making. I'm not sure where I'm going to get it, but since you obviously think it's MORE FAIR to tell people who barely make enough money to support their families or who don't make any money because the economy is in the shitter than to just raise taxes as a whole, I gotta figure it out somehow, right?

There is no logic in that.

And just to be clear, I am aware that the spending our government is doing is out of control. I merely proposed that if we raised taxes, it would help to pay down the deficit. I also said in my initial post that there are a lot of things that need to be done to fix the issues we're having in this country financially, but no one in this thread is apparently interested in reading an entire post.

It is easy to say "raise taxes" when you're not paying income taxes, huh? That is, if you aren't already.

 

[retro]

why



if even half that number are unemployed then when things get better and they find employment we should be able to tax their income, correct? That is what an income tax is for.


Recessions like these pass.

God, you really are clueless, aren't you? It's really not even fair for you to have me even try to debate this with you at this point.

I've used the 47% argument in the past, though for different reasons. It's a fairly factual figure, but there are a number of things that you have to take into account to get there. It doesn't mean that those 47% don't work, it means that their net tax liabilities are less than their tax credits and other deductions. That generally has to do with the underemployed. Then there are people that are unemployed for one reason or another. There are other factors for that. You're portraying it as though our revenue and spending problems would be fixed if those 47% started working (whether they're actually working right now or not isn't germane to this discussion, but something to be aware of). That simply isn't the case. The "rich" do shoulder a higher tax liability than say you or me, due to the progressive nature of our tax system, and their higher income. They'd still have a higher tax liability even under a flat tax system, simply by the virtue of how that system works.

The answer isn't "tax the rich more", just like the answer isn't "tax the poor more", or "make sure everyone pays taxes". The answer is, and I'm sounding like a broken record here; cut spending, balance the budget, and pay down the principle of the national debt. However, the government's answer is to raise taxes, raise spending, and try to inflate their way out of this mess. But that's an entirely different discussion.

 

[retro]

How am I being "ownd"? You guys seem to be fine with a minority funding everything.

You honestly haven't paid attention to anything that has been said, have you? Nobody is saying that the "rich" should be funding everything. In fact, I've said exactly the opposite... but it seems to be your modus operandi to ignore everything that you don't want to hear. Or just read it the way that you want to in order to twist it to try and prove your point. It'd be a good idea for you to stop misrepresenting what people are saying, because it simply makes you look foolish.

I realize what a flat tax is. It is a *different* income tax. When I said "fuck the income tax" I'm saying that ours is broken and it should be replaced.

Then you say, "fuck our current tax system". What you said seemed to be a damnation on any type of income tax. I was merely informing you that a flat tax is an income tax as well.

 

[anathelia]

How am I being "ownd"? You guys seem to be fine with a minority funding everything.


I realize what a flat tax is. It is a *different* income tax. When I said "fuck the income tax" I'm saying that ours is broken and it should be replaced.



It is easy to say "raise taxes" when you're not paying income taxes, huh? That is, if you aren't already.

Sure, it's real easy. That's why my boyfriend, who's making close to 50k a year and taking care of our daughter and allowing me to live with him so I don't have to live in an unhealthy environment is on the exact same page as I am. We've discussed it at length on a number of occasions. While I'm sure he appreciates the credits he's getting when he files his taxes every year, he is firmly in the camp of "raise taxes for everyone".

Don't try and devalue my point simply because I'm not working right now. That's bullshit and you know it. And you know why I don't work? I'm a full-time parent and a full-time student trying to get a degree because there is no way I'm going to get a job in this economy right now. I'm going to school to get a degree to get a job with plenty of security, and you know what? Even then, even when I'm making 75-100k a year, I will STILL firmly be in the camp of tax reform..whatever that happens to mean, as long as it FIXES what's wrong with this country.

And I'm curious what minority is funding anything. Are you still on about the 5% thing? Because I'm pretty sure that's already been cleared up. In case you still seem to not understand my stance on the issue...People who MAKE money should PAY taxes. People who DON'T make money should NOT PAY taxes. And people who are having to work part time at Burger King because they got fired from their actual job and are hardly making enough money to support their family shouldn't have to be punished for that. If a flat tax would fix things, then great. But, Jesus. For someone who acted like I was ridiculous for thinking that the poor people in this country are being punished ,you sure are acting like that's all you want to do.

 

[All Else Failed]

God, you really are clueless, aren't you? It's really not even fair for you to have me even try to debate this with you at this point.

I've used the 47% argument in the past, though for different reasons. It's a fairly factual figure, but there are a number of things that you have to take into account to get there. It doesn't mean that those 47% don't work, it means that their net tax liabilities are less than their tax credits and other deductions. That generally has to do with the underemployed. Then there are people that are unemployed for one reason or another. There are other factors for that. You're portraying it as though our revenue and spending problems would be fixed if those 47% started working (whether they're actually working right now or not isn't germane to this discussion, but something to be aware of). That simply isn't the case. The "rich" do shoulder a higher tax liability than say you or me, due to the progressive nature of our tax system, and their higher income. They'd still have a higher tax liability even under a flat tax system, simply by the virtue of how that system works.

The answer isn't "tax the rich more", just like the answer isn't "tax the poor more", or "make sure everyone pays taxes". The answer is, and I'm sounding like a broken record here; cut spending, balance the budget, and pay down the principle of the national debt. However, the government's answer is to raise taxes, raise spending, and try to inflate their way out of this mess. But that's an entirely different discussion.

Nope. I am simply trying to get the point across that raising taxes on the wealthy is not going to solve our problems at all, and that the minority that does pay for everything are demonized and told they should pay more. I think this is wrong.




and I agree with the last part 100%

 

[retro]

Nope. I am simply trying to get the point across that raising taxes on the wealthy is not going to solve our problems at all, and that the minority that does pay for everything are demonized and told they should pay more. I think this is wrong.

and I agree with the last part 100%

Then pay attention to how you say things... because it's not very difficult to come to the conclusion that I did based on what you're saying. Nobody in this thread is demonizing the "rich" and saying that they need to foot the bill for everyone else... which is what you've claimed on numerous occasions. People have said that everyone should pay more, or that the "rich" paying more could help some. Stop twisting things and actually pay attention.

 

[All Else Failed]

Sure, it's real easy. That's why my boyfriend, who's making close to 50k a year and taking care of our daughter and allowing me to live with him so I don't have to live in an unhealthy environment is on the exact same page as I am. We've discussed it at length on a number of occasions. While I'm sure he appreciates the credits he's getting when he files his taxes every year, he is firmly in the camp of "raise taxes for everyone".

Don't try and devalue my point simply because I'm not working right now. That's bullshit and you know it. And you know why I don't work? I'm a full-time parent and a full-time student trying to get a degree because there is no way I'm going to get a job in this economy right now. I'm going to school to get a degree to get a job with plenty of security, and you know what? Even then, even when I'm making 75-100k a year, I will STILL firmly be in the camp of tax reform..whatever that happens to mean, as long as it FIXES what's wrong with this country.

And I'm curious what minority is funding anything. Are you still on about the 5% thing? Because I'm pretty sure that's already been cleared up. In case you still seem to not understand my stance on the issue...People who MAKE money should PAY taxes. People who DON'T make money should NOT PAY taxes. And people who are having to work part time at Burger King because they got fired from their actual job and are hardly making enough money to support their family shouldn't have to be punished for that. If a flat tax would fix things, then great. But, Jesus. For someone who acted like I was ridiculous for thinking that the poor people in this country are being punished ,you sure are acting like that's all you want to do.

I think everyone is for tax reform, no?

paying more won't fix our terrible spending habits. Our government is BEYOND wasteful. Taxing more won't solve that.

People who MAKE money should PAY taxes. People who DON'T make money should NOT PAY taxes.

Uh, they already do.

Then pay attention to how you say things... because it's not very difficult to come to the conclusion that I did based on what you're saying. Nobody in this thread is demonizing the "rich" and saying that they need to foot the bill for everyone else... which is what you've claimed on numerous occasions. People have said that everyone should pay more, or that the "rich" paying more could help some. Stop twisting things and actually pay attention.

She just said that people who make money should pay and the people who do not make money should not. How is that not footing the bill for everyone?

 

[retro]

She just said that people who make money should pay and the people who do not make money should not. How is that not footing the bill for everyone?

Please... just shut up already. Everything you say makes you look like an even bigger idiot than statement before it. People that don't make any money don't have any ability to pay taxes... so how do you propose that they do that? Your argument is a complete logical fallacy. A lot of people that don't work have spouses or significant others that do and provide for them. Other people are incapable of working. Still others are unemployed... but everyone pays for them, not just the "rich" or the "poor". You're trying to spin things and doing an absolutely horrible job of it.

I won't say that they shouldn't raise taxes for everyone. 5% higher taxes wouldn't be the end of the world and would allow the government to recoup the trillions of dollars in debt we have.

Even then, even when I'm making 75-100k a year, I will STILL firmly be in the camp of tax reform..whatever that happens to mean, as long as it FIXES what's wrong with this country.

That disproves you trying to say that she thinks the rich should foot the bill for everyone.

 

[Maulds]

I see and hear everyday about different things the federal government has wasted our money on. I can't agree we need to pay in more when so much of it is wasted.

 

[All Else Failed]

People that don't make any money don't have any ability to pay taxes... so how do you propose that they do that?

that is my point

they don't


and who pays the most in income taxes? The super rich, the rich, the wealthy and the upper middle



They *do* foot the bill for everyone else.




and you're pretty rude

 

[anathelia]

the "super rich" foot the bill because they make more money.

They're always going to pay more taxes, no matter what, BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE MONEY. I don't see what you're trying to say by saying your point is that people who don't make money don't pay taxes. You've said it like they should be paying taxes..but you're not proposing how they're going to come up with the money to pay those taxes when they don't make money. If that's what you want them to do, to pay taxes, then why don't you offer a solution to the problem instead of saying the same thing over and over and expecting to get anywhere?

 

[All Else Failed]

the "super rich" foot the bill because they make more money.

They're always going to pay more taxes, no matter what, BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE MONEY. I don't see what you're trying to say by saying your point is that people who don't make money don't pay taxes. You've said it like they should be paying taxes..but you're not proposing how they're going to come up with the money to pay those taxes when they don't make money. If that's what you want them to do, to pay taxes, then why don't you offer a solution to the problem instead of saying the same thing over and over and expecting to get anywhere?

No one is denying this. However, is it even ethical to have a small number of people foot the bill? I could see someone making the case that it is pretty discriminatory. Everyone enjoys the house that the rich man built and then hardly pay into the system themselves.


The solution is to simplify the taxation system, reduce spending, and cut portions of the DoD for starters.

 

[retro]

that is my point

they don't


and who pays the most in income taxes? The super rich, the rich, the wealthy and the upper middle



They *do* foot the bill for everyone else.




and you're pretty rude

Oh. My. God.

People other than the classes you mentioned pay taxes... therefore your argument is a logical fallacy. If nobody else paid taxes, then you could state that as fact. But it isn't, therefore you're completely wrong.

But lets go with your premise here. What would you propose we do then? If those classes "foot the bill" for everyone else, should the people that don't fall into one of those categories pay taxes? What should they do to make the situation "fair" in your eyes. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, because your logic is flawed, but I'm interested in what you have to say.

I'm not rude, I just call things the way they are and I don't sugarcoat a damn thing. The people that think I'm rude are usually the sensitive ones, or those that can't handle the truth.

 

[retro]

I'm finding it hysterical that AEF has changed his stance, or main arguing point at least three different times in the course of this discussion. :24:

 

[All Else Failed]

Oh. My. God.

People other than the classes you mentioned pay taxes... therefore your argument is a logical fallacy. If nobody else paid taxes, then you could state that as fact. But it isn't, therefore you're completely wrong.

But lets go with your premise here. What would you propose we do then? If those classes "foot the bill" for everyone else, should the people that don't fall into one of those categories pay taxes? What should they do to make the situation "fair" in your eyes. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, because your logic is flawed, but I'm interested in what you have to say.

I'm not rude, I just call things the way they are and I don't sugarcoat a damn thing. The people that think I'm rude are usually the sensitive ones, or those that can't handle the truth.

dude i'm talking about income taxes not other taxes.


and what logical fallacy specifically? There are many can you name one?


I propose we simplify the tax brackets and lessen the taxes the rich have to pay and spread it out a little to more people. That way we'd get the taxes we need and more people ya into the system and the people who make less will pay, but it will be just a little since it has been spread out among half of the country.


No you are pretty rude and you obviously resort to name calling. Don't worry I have thick skin but you should probably not take this so seriously.

I'm finding it hysterical that AEF has changed his stance, or main arguing point at least three different times in the course of this discussion. :24:

No everything I am saying points to a simplified version of our tax system and pointing out how the rich are unjustly paying for everything.


Just because it needs to happen doesn't make it right.

 

[Panacea]

:dunno I think you've been misunderstanding him, but misunderstanding has been the theme of the past few pages of this thread lol.

 

[retro]

dude i'm talking about income taxes not other taxes.

and what logical fallacy specifically? There are many can you name one?

Now you're just not making any sense whatsoever. You're saying that the "rich" unjustly "foot the bill" for everyone else. Correct? But that isn't true, because there are other tax brackets that help to "foot the bill", they just don't pay the same gross amount that the "rich" do. Therefore your premise that the rich foot the bill for everyone that doesn't pay taxes is a logical fallacy.

I propose we simplify the tax brackets and lessen the taxes the rich have to pay and spread it out a little to more people. That way we'd get the taxes we need and more people ya into the system and the people who make less will pay, but it will be just a little since it has been spread out among half of the country.

I have no problems with that... and if you go back and read, I've never proposed raising the taxes on the "rich" specifically. I've proposed higher taxes for everyone, with the caveats of cutting spending and those extra dollars going toward the principle of the national debt. Nowhere have I said that the rich need to pay more than everyone else. Ana said that everyone should pay higher taxes and is in support of tax reform.

No you are pretty rude and you obviously resort to name calling. Don't worry I have thick skin but you should probably not take this so seriously.

Then you just don't like hearing the truth. I'm not rude to be rude, nor have I called anyone names. I've provided colorful examples for how people are behaving, but I have not resorted to name calling. I'm actually not taking this very seriously... I'm not raging behind my keyboard or anything of the sort. Ultimately, you don't matter... but it's fun to prove someone like you wrong, time and time again.