americans need to pay higher taxes

[All Else Failed]

Now you're just not making any sense whatsoever. You're saying that the "rich" unjustly "foot the bill" for everyone else. Correct? But that isn't true, because there are other tax brackets that help to "foot the bill", they just don't pay the same gross amount that the "rich" do. Therefore your premise that the rich foot the bill for everyone that doesn't pay taxes is a logical fallacy.

Um, I am making sense.


Those other tax brackets pale in comparison to what the wealthy have to pay.


Federal income tax brackets:

http://www.consumerismcommentary.com/federal-income-tax-brackets-and-marginal-rates/

Just looking at the brackets, we can see that people who make good amounts of money (100k+ and up) pay the MOST. Sure, middle class people pay some but clearly not as much as anyone above them.

I have no problems with that... and if you go back and read, I've never proposed raising the taxes on the "rich" specifically. I've proposed higher taxes for everyone, with the caveats of cutting spending and those extra dollars going toward the principle of the national debt. Nowhere have I said that the rich need to pay more than everyone else. Ana said that everyone should pay higher taxes and is in support of tax reform.

ok

Then you just don't like hearing the truth. I'm not rude to be rude, nor have I called anyone names. I've provided colorful examples for how people are behaving, but I have not resorted to name calling. I'm actually not taking this very seriously... I'm not raging behind my keyboard or anything of the sort. Ultimately, you don't matter... but it's fun to prove someone like you wrong, time and time again.

The truth is i'm not an idiot, which you've called me. You were being uncivil:

Please... just shut up already. Everything you say makes you look like an even bigger idiot than statement before it

 

[retro]

Um, I am making sense.


Those other tax brackets pale in comparison to what the wealthy have to pay.


Federal income tax brackets:

http://www.consumerismcommentary.com/federal-income-tax-brackets-and-marginal-rates/

Just looking at the brackets, we can see that people who make good amounts of money (100k+ and up) pay the MOST. Sure, middle class people pay some but clearly not as much as anyone above them.

Like I've told you multiple times... you have to pay attention to what you say, and not what you meant to say. You said that those people foot the bill for everyone, which is false. Other people pay taxes as well... the percentages and gross amounts are irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion. That's the point that I'm making... and why what you said (not what you apparently meant) was a logical fallacy.

The truth is i'm not an idiot, which you've called me several times. You were being uncivil:

I never said that you were an idiot... merely that you were behaving like one. There is a very distinct difference between the two. That's being honest. My statement that you quoted means that everything that you say builds on your previous statements in making you look like a bigger idiot than the one before. Not that you are one, but that you are behaving like one. Again, big distinction.

 

[All Else Failed]

dude saying someone is behaving like an idiot is saying they have the qualities of an idiot at that point in time, which is name calling.

backpedaling

whatever, not even important.

 

[HK]

Fantastic! Seeing as the middle classes don't earn enough to be considered contributors to the taxation system, the government will probably just abolish tax for them altogether!

Well, that's a load off my next wage packet now I can get back to enjoying my house, which a rich man apparently built for me. I only wish he'd stuck around to pay my heating bill - that one's a bastard.

 

[All Else Failed]

Fantastic! Seeing as the middle classes don't earn enough to be considered contributors to the taxation system, the government will probably just abolish tax for them altogether!

Well, that's a load off my next wage packet now I can get back to enjoying my house, which a rich man apparently built for me. I only wish he'd stuck around to pay my heating bill - that one's a bastard.

The middle class contributes, just not nearly as much in terms of income taxes as the more wealthy people do.

 

[retro]

The middle class contributes, just not nearly as much in terms of income taxes as the more wealthy people do.

But that isn't what you said.

 

[retro]

dude saying someone is behaving like an idiot is saying they have the qualities of an idiot at that point in time, which is name calling.

backpedaling

whatever, not even important.

No, it isn't the same thing. Calling someone an idiot is saying that's what they are, regardless of the situation. Saying someone is acting like an idiot is a temporary statement, exhibiting the attributes of an idiot in that singular situation. Exhibiting the attributes of something does not mean that's what they are.

I don't ever backpedal... I stand by everything that I say.

 

[retro]

Fantastic! Seeing as the middle classes don't earn enough to be considered contributors to the taxation system, the government will probably just abolish tax for them altogether!

Well, that's a load off my next wage packet now I can get back to enjoying my house, which a rich man apparently built for me. I only wish he'd stuck around to pay my heating bill - that one's a bastard.

That's what I'm saying! Somewhere up there AEF said that only the upper middle class and up paid income taxes... so I was gonna go talk to a tax professional about that and find out why I've paid so much to the government already this year.

 

[All Else Failed]

But that isn't what you said.

No actually that is exactly what I said in a previous post:

middle class people pay some but clearly not as much as anyone above them.

That's what I'm saying! Somewhere up there AEF said that only the upper middle class and up paid income taxes... so I was gonna go talk to a tax professional about that and find out why I've paid so much to the government already this year.

Holy shit no I didn't


See my above post ^^^^

No, it isn't the same thing. Calling someone an idiot is saying that's what they are, regardless of the situation. Saying someone is acting like an idiot is a temporary statement, exhibiting the attributes of an idiot in that singular situation. Exhibiting the attributes of something does not mean that's what they are.

I don't ever backpedal... I stand by everything that I say.

It doesn't matter if it is temporal or not. If someone is acting like a moron for a short while and I say "you're acting like a moron", I'm calling them a moron even if they truly aren't one.

 

[retro]

Trying to discuss anything with you is like talking in circles... you've stated so many logical fallacies as fact that I can't keep everything straight anymore. Every time I disprove one, you run to the next, and then eventually we arrive back at the original premise again.

 

[All Else Failed]

Trying to discuss anything with you is like talking in circles... you've stated so many logical fallacies as fact that I can't keep everything straight anymore. Every time I disprove one, you run to the next, and then eventually we arrive back at the original premise again.

so basically you saw that you were mistaken with your last post and this is the result

 

[retro]

Holy shit no I didn't

Yes, you actually did.

People other than the classes you mentioned pay taxes... therefore your argument is a logical fallacy. If nobody else paid taxes, then you could state that as fact. But it isn't, therefore you're completely wrong.

dude i'm talking about income taxes not other taxes.

It doesn't matter if it is temporal or not. If someone is acting like a moron for a short while and I say "you're acting like a moron", I'm calling them a moron even if they truly aren't one.

It's not my fault that you don't understand the nuances of the English language. There is a very distinct difference between telling someone that they're behaving in a manner that matches x, and saying they are x.

so basically you saw that you were mistaken with your last post and this is the result

I'm not mistaken in the least bit, as I've just proven. I've just realized the futility in trying to have an intellectual conversation with you.

 

[HK]

Okay, think about it like this, AEF. I get the feeling you're looking at it as 'person A only pays 20% taxes while person B has to pay 40% just because they earn more, how is that fair?' That's not how the world works.

Imagine that in an ideal world, you have to earn 10 pounds a month to survive, ie. have food and pay your basic bills and so on.

Person A earns 13 pounds a month. They get taxed 20%, which brings them down to 10 pounds and 40 pence. So they are literally living just above the survival line.

Person B earns 100 pounds a month. If you tax them 20% they come down to 80 pounds - way above the survival line. If you tax them 40% they come down to 60 pounds - still way over the threshold, obviously.

Now, how would it make any sense to lessen taxes for person B, who can clearly afford them without thinking twice, and put the extra load onto person A, who is only just managing as they are?

 

[Carlton]

can someone change my name to "logical fallacies " retro likes this.

anyway, Im still reading through this thread and I have something to say and would like to quote retro and others if thats ok,

I would also like to mention its a discussion, and everyones opinion is right, as it is their opinion, retro you seem a bit bullyish with your posts. as a newish member you seem to use this forum as your podium in certain discussions and you argue better than anyone ive ever seen (in forum life) but you do lack manners. this isnt an insult, just an observation, you will do fine in politics.

 

[All Else Failed]

Yes, you actually did.







It's not my fault that you don't understand the nuances of the English language. There is a very distinct difference between telling someone that they're behaving in a manner that matches x, and saying they are x.



I'm not mistaken in the least bit, as I've just proven. I've just realized the futility in trying to have an intellectual conversation with you.

I clearly said the middle class pays income taxes. Look at my quote in the last post.

 

[All Else Failed]

Okay, think about it like this, AEF. I get the feeling you're looking at it as 'person A only pays 20% taxes while person B has to pay 40% just because they earn more, how is that fair?' That's not how the world works.

Imagine that in an ideal world, you have to earn 10 pounds a month to survive, ie. have food and pay your basic bills and so on.

Person A earns 13 pounds a month. They get taxed 20%, which brings them down to 10 pounds and 40 pence. So they are literally living just above the survival line.

Person B earns 100 pounds a month. If you tax them 20% they come down to 80 pounds - way above the survival line. If you tax them 40% they come down to 60 pounds - still way over the threshold, obviously.

Now, how would it make any sense to lessen taxes for person B, who can clearly afford them without thinking twice, and put the extra load onto person A, who is only just managing as they are?

I should have explained more when I said the taxes should be spread out more: People literally at the poverty line should be considered too poor to pay. I never said that ALL people are able to pay. However, I'm going to bet a lot of that 47% can afford to pay even a little income tax.

 

[Tim]

I love when people throw this 47% of people don't pay taxes bullshit.

First and foremost, they DO pay taxes. Most of this 47% pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than the super rich do. Do you realize that included in this 47% that pay no federal taxes are people who make millions and even billions?
But they ALL pay SS, medicare, medicaid, state taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, etc. etc. etc...

And almost every one of them pay federal taxes, every paycheck. The only reason they are included in this 47% is because they get deductions, the same deductions the super rich get. So is your beef with the tax code or is it with the deductions?

AEF, do you take any deductions on your taxes? And by how much does that reduce your effective tax rate?

Now instead of complaining about those who don't make enough to pay into the federal coffers via federal income tax, why don't you focus on raising the water for everyone?
Let me explain...
The wages in this country for the middle class have stagnated since the 70's. This is why there are so many that have an effective federal tax rate of zero. Why not turn the policies around that keep the middle class in the gutter? Why not fix the trade policies that outsource good jobs? Why don't you focus on raising the standard of living for the middle class in America?

If we were to focus on bringing in good paying middle class jobs in this country, more people would be paying more taxes and we wouldn't even be having these debt debates.

The absolute best way to reduce our debt is to get every ones wages in line with production. To get everyone working.
Because I can guarantee you that almost every one of the 47% that have an effective federal tax rate of zero would LOVE to pay more taxes (via making more money)

 

[Johnfromokc]

I love when people throw this 47% of people don't pay taxes bullshit.

First and foremost, they DO pay taxes. Most of this 47% pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than the super rich do. Do you realize that included in this 47% that pay no federal taxes are people who make millions and even billions?
But they ALL pay SS, medicare, medicaid, state taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, etc. etc. etc...

And almost every one of them pay federal taxes, every paycheck. The only reason they are included in this 47% is because they get deductions, the same deductions the super rich get. So is your beef with the tax code or is it with the deductions?

AEF, do you take any deductions on your taxes? And by how much does that reduce your effective tax rate?

Now instead of complaining about those who don't make enough to pay into the federal coffers via federal income tax, why don't you focus on raising the water for everyone?
Let me explain...
The wages in this country for the middle class have stagnated since the 70's. This is why there are so many that have an effective federal tax rate of zero. Why not turn the policies around that keep the middle class in the gutter? Why not fix the trade policies that outsource good jobs? Why don't you focus on raising the standard of living for the middle class in America?

If we were to focus on bringing in good paying middle class jobs in this country, more people would be paying more taxes and we wouldn't even be having these debt debates.

The absolute best way to reduce our debt is to get every ones wages in line with production. To get everyone working.
Because I can guarantee you that almost every one of the 47% that have an effective federal tax rate of zero would LOVE to pay more taxes (via making more money)

This. :homo:

And especially this:

If we were to focus on bringing in good paying middle class jobs in this country, more people would be paying more taxes and we wouldn't even be having these debt debates.

Why is this so difficult for some to comprehend?

 

[All Else Failed]

I love when people throw this 47% of people don't pay taxes bullshit.

First and foremost, they DO pay taxes. Most of this 47% pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than the super rich do. Do you realize that included in this 47% that pay no federal taxes are people who make millions and even billions?
But they ALL pay SS, medicare, medicaid, state taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, etc. etc. etc...

And almost every one of them pay federal taxes, every paycheck. The only reason they are included in this 47% is because they get deductions, the same deductions the super rich get. So is your beef with the tax code or is it with the deductions?

AEF, do you take any deductions on your taxes? And by how much does that reduce your effective tax rate?

Now instead of complaining about those who don't make enough to pay into the federal coffers via federal income tax, why don't you focus on raising the water for everyone?
Let me explain...
The wages in this country for the middle class have stagnated since the 70's. This is why there are so many that have an effective federal tax rate of zero. Why not turn the policies around that keep the middle class in the gutter? Why not fix the trade policies that outsource good jobs? Why don't you focus on raising the standard of living for the middle class in America?

If we were to focus on bringing in good paying middle class jobs in this country, more people would be paying more taxes and we wouldn't even be having these debt debates.

The absolute best way to reduce our debt is to get every ones wages in line with production. To get everyone working.
Because I can guarantee you that almost every one of the 47% that have an effective federal tax rate of zero would LOVE to pay more taxes (via making more money)

Hey man, you have no argument from me on this. The key to making things better is to bring back the jobs that left for other shores. Totally agree on this.


I deduct charitable donations and it doesn't reduce it that much at all. (I give to a few local organizations)


And for the record, I never said the 47% don't pay any taxes, I'm specifically talking about income taxes.

 

[Tim]

Why is this so difficult for some to comprehend?

Especially the Republican party. They have been in control of the house for how long now? How many times did Boehner say, "Where's the jobs Mr. President?" And how many bills have they put on the floor addressing jobs? Hell, how many times have they even said the word jobs since they got into office?

Hey man, you have no argument from me on this. The key to making things better is to bring back the jobs that left for other shores. Totally agree on this.


I deduct charitable donations and it doesn't reduce it that much at all. (I give to a few local organizations)


And for the record, I never said the 47% don't pay any taxes, I'm specifically talking about income taxes.

But they do pay income taxes and the government uses them all year long. It's just that they get it back in the form of deductions at the end of the year.

On top of your charitable donations, you also have your personal deduction, deductions for school? deductions for health care? and a list of many others...
If your income was $25,000 last year, I'm sure you didn't pay taxes on all $25,000, right?