Alcoholics Anonymous

[Panacea]

Even if it were possible that they were happy for you to put your faith in a rock - it still requires faith itself. Some people do not have faith in the existence of any higher power whatsoever.

The issue isn't what the higher power is, it's that expect you to just accept one is out there.

Precisely.

But the issue is, at least for AA/NA, what the higher power is. If you're doing step work and telling your sponsor (assuming one goes as far as to obtain one) your higher power is a rock, they're going to battle you on that and accuse you of being in relapse mode and not taking it seriously. I'm almost 100% sure of that.

We all do have faith, though, in non-spiritual things, my suggestion was just to put faith in the program and the social support group when you can't bring yourself to put faith in something you don't believe in.

 

[Johnfromokc]

It's a good way to put it, really, but addicts don't very often listen to professionals. They look down on professionals, because it's a lot less intimidating to go find support from someone who is just like you. It's like some exclusive bullshit club.

It is clinically believed that relapse is a part of recovery in the disease model, ya. I've noticed many people from AA find transfer addictions in one or more of the following:

1. Self-righteousness/preaching
2. Smoking/coffee
3. Talking about doing drugs
4. God
5. Gossiping/busy-body syndrome

The first thing a person tells us when they've spiraled into a life of drugs and crime after a period of sobriety is "I stopped going to meetings". Very interesting. AA has to be the active addiction for these people.

Afterall, their slogan is "keep coming back".

That's why "RR" makes far more sense to me. It also makes sense that millions stop abusive drinking and drugging on their own once they have gotten sick of their own behavior and decided to change.

Check out the RR "Crash Course" and see what you think:

http://www.rational.org/index.php?id=36

The RR philosophy is simply to stop the addictive behavior, and not dwell on it constantly like AA does. I will say that if AA works for someone and it makes them happy and keeps them clean and sober then that's the program they should follow. Lots of people, however, say that AA meetings make them want to drink even more after hearing all the drinking stories. There's something to be said for putting the bottle down and never picking it up again and not discussing it constantly.

 

[Extrovert]

What are your thoughts on this? I went every day for a week, once. My conclusion - its helpful if you're an alcoholic, but it's a brainwashing religious cult.

I used to go just to feel better about myself.

Everyone there has some serious issues.

Oh, if you're a drunk and attend these meetgings and this offends you, tough shit. sarcasm

 

[Panacea]

I generally don't have much hope for addiction, given what I've seen professionally. It's often far more chemical than any behavioral program can handle. I don't think the field knows enough about the brain structures of addiction yet. A lot of good work is being done, though.

Overall, I think no one approach fits all people's addictions. The disease model has a lot of flaws, so it's good other programs are out there. It seems like the key is just to never stop trying to stop.

 

[Joe the meek]

I generally don't have much hope for addiction, given what I've seen professionally. It's often far more chemical than any behavioral program can handle. I don't think the field knows enough about the brain structures of addiction yet. A lot of good work is being done, though.

Overall, I think no one approach fits all people's addictions. The disease model has a lot of flaws, so it's good other programs are out there. It seems like the key is just to never stop trying to stop.

Very well said.

I guess as long as addicts don't kill innocent people due to their addiction (to whatever the poison of the day is) or ruin the lives of others, who really cares?

 

[Extrovert]

Very well said.

I guess as long as addicts don't kill innocent people due to their addiction (to whatever the poison of the day is) or ruin the lives of others, who really cares?

The people who love them and hate seeing good souls suffer?

 

[Panacea]

It's hard though, families suffer so much when a member is an addict, it leaves so much residual damage and dysfunction. That's not even if the addict is prone to criminality. I cannot tell you how many people I see with 2 or more OUIL 3rds, it infuriates me, but humans are so easily inconsiderate.

 

[Joe the meek]

It's hard though, families suffer so much when a member is an addict, it leaves so much residual damage and dysfunction. That's not even if the addict is prone to criminality. I cannot tell you how many people I see with 2 or more OUIL 3rds, it infuriates me, but humans are so easily inconsiderate.

I've got to ask, how many people after their first OUIL (DUI/DWI to the rest of the nation LOL) say that they don't have a drinking problem?

 

[Panacea]

I've got to ask, how many people after their first OUIL (DUI/DWI to the rest of the nation LOL) say that they don't have a drinking problem?

70-80%
Our running joke is: "I don't drink that much, actually. It's just every time I drink and drive I get caught."
:24:

 

[Joe the meek]

70-80%
Our running joke is: "I don't drink that much, actually. It's just every time I drink and drive I get caught."
:24:

And out of the remaining 30-20%, how many tell you that they have a drinking problem because they think that's what you want to hear?

Only from my own personal observations and I have no data to say I'm right or wrong, but usually when someone is ordered by the court system to get help, it rarely actually helps other than the person fulfilling their court obligation.

 

[Panacea]

And out of the remaining 30-20%, how many tell you that they have a drinking problem because they think that's what you want to hear?

Only from my own personal observations and I have no data to say I'm right or wrong, but usually when someone is ordered by the court system to get help, it rarely actually helps other than the person fulfilling their court obligation.

The demographic of people with drunk driving convictions aren't the type to say what people want to hear. They're 40-60+, white men, and they don't give two fucks about what the court wants to hear. The only thing is that they think they're "functional alcoholics" and know how to do the right thing long enough to get a monkey off their back. They're completely transparent, however, and depending on the court program, it won't fly and they will end up in prison.

Sobriety courts are becoming more popular, and the goal is to push people through, not necessarily reach a specific stage of change. Basically sobriety courts help reduce jail overcrowding. (I should say I work for a drug court; treatment is intensive, more similar to intensive probation than a sobriety court).

Now I think this rings more true with people who have have recurrent, instead of chronic, drug/alcohol abuse, and those in remission who just happened to get popped for shop lifting or driving on a suspended license. Especially pot smokers. It's a joke.

Real, intensive drug court programs have a 30-50% success rate. I'm talking no new charges, not no new drug use. These are horrible statistics, but in my opinion, this low percentage who maybe didn't ever use again...it was worth the resources. People don't get better going in and out of jail, so the rate would be closer to 0.

One has to acknowledge a problem in order to change it. The way I see it, these programs are beneficial enough, but I agree, it's pretty hopeless.

 

[The Doc]

Correct



Someone out of control with drugs or alcohol cannot turn their life over to the guy who lifts more than them at the gym or their ipod, as the program asks. They also cannot know the ipod has a plan for their life.

AA also asks the person seeking recovery to ask the higher power to remove them of their shortcomings, and all of this is very vital for success when doing step work.

Religion and a higher power are mutually exclusive, you're on the right track there. AA/NA allow you to define you own higher power, yes, but this is not a rock or a really cool looking piece of dog poop.

The "as we define it" part of the higher power refers to being more accommodating spiritually, not in a secular realm. I think this is very good on their part, because they don't need the person to believe in THEIR god, just A god of some sort. That covers most of the population.

For the small chunk of people who don't have a spiritual life, it gets trickier.

When I was in NA a guy had his Dog as his higher power. Choosing GOD as your higher power is looked down upon. They make it known in the NA/AA crowd who is a christian.

I know you work for the cops and you sentence people to a bunch of different programs, but as a juvinile offender i did a bunch of theese programs. Trust me, I know.

 

[Panacea]

When I was in NA a guy had his Dog as his higher power. Choosing GOD as your higher power is looked down upon. They make it known in the NA/AA crowd who is a christian.

NA is a joke, everyone in the treatment and recovery community knows that. NA meeting with young people are a joke, as well. We don't let our clients go to more than 1 NA meeting per week, for that reason. Someone using their dog as their higher power is full of shit.

I know you work for the cops and you sentence people to a bunch of different programs, but as a juvinile offender i did a bunch of theese programs. Trust me, I know.

I work with AA/NA/Alanon meeting leaders, and people who have gone to AA for 20+ years. These people have a lot more wisdom than anyone else when it comes to what the 12 step program is about, so I trust their input.

More than even my job, I go to school for this, it's clearly laid out semester after semester what a future client of mine will have to do if they are ordered to AA/NA. I would be expected to confront a client using an inanimate object or human/animal as a higher power.

 

[The Doc]

NA is a joke, everyone in the treatment and recovery community knows that. NA meeting with young people are a joke, as well. We don't let our clients go to more than 1 NA meeting per week, for that reason. Someone using their dog as their higher power is full of shit.



I work with AA/NA/Alanon meeting leaders, and people who have gone to AA for 20+ years. These people have a lot more wisdom than anyone else when it comes to what the 12 step program is about, so I trust their input.

More than even my job, I go to school for this, it's clearly laid out semester after semester what a future client of mine will have to do if they are ordered to AA/NA. I would be expected to confront a client using an inanimate object or human/animal as a higher power.

Wow so for AA you need to pretty much go there the rest of your life, every week. Thats pretty weak in my eyes. A program like lets say, Teen Challenge has its ups and down's, and many people talk a lot of trash about it say its 'brainwashing' etc.. etc.. but at the end of the day they brag an 82% success rate (which is disputed also) but the majority of people go through ONCE and NEVER return and report being clean after 5 years.

You dont truly cure and addiction by showing up to some meeting every week. Thats called TREATING. Chemotherapy for cancer is TREATING the cancer. You do it multiple times. The cancer doesnt usually go away from this; it just keeps it controlled. Taking azithromyacin (Z-Pack) for Chlamydia is CURING because you take the prescription and it doesnt return, you have no need to take the pills again. Curing is ERADICATING the issue. TREATING is just controlling it. Call me a badass, or even hard headed but i think meeting up with a bunch of fiends and sitting in a circle talking about my feelings is gay.

Negative Rep my away! But thats my opinion, and im not afraid to express it.

 

[Joe the meek]

Call me a badass, or even hard headed but i think meeting up with a bunch of fiends and sitting in a circle talking about my feelings is gay.

How about calling you young.

I could be wrong and perhaps the times have changed, but I believe even organizations dealing with the military do "gay" things.

 

[MjaneGibson]

How about calling you young.

I could be wrong and perhaps the times have changed, but I believe even organizations dealing with the military do "gay" things.

:clap:clapsometimes the one thing people need is to sit around in a circle of friends and talk about their feelings. That is not something that just comes easily for most of us.

 

[MjaneGibson]

Wow so for AA you need to pretty much go there the rest of your life, every week. Thats pretty weak in my eyes. A program like lets say, Teen Challenge has its ups and down's, and many people talk a lot of trash about it say its 'brainwashing' etc.. etc.. but at the end of the day they brag an 82% success rate (which is disputed also) but the majority of people go through ONCE and NEVER return and report being clean after 5 years.

You dont truly cure and addiction by showing up to some meeting every week. Thats called TREATING. Chemotherapy for cancer is TREATING the cancer. You do it multiple times. The cancer doesnt usually go away from this; it just keeps it controlled. Taking azithromyacin (Z-Pack) for Chlamydia is CURING because you take the prescription and it doesnt return, you have no need to take the pills again. Curing is ERADICATING the issue. TREATING is just controlling it. Call me a badass, or even hard headed but i think meeting up with a bunch of fiends and sitting in a circle talking about my feelings is gay.

Negative Rep my away! But thats my opinion, and im not afraid to express it.

I don't quite understand where you are going with this? No one ever said AA was a cure...in fact, it's called a program for a reason. In fact...Teen Challenge, despite their so-called "success rate," is still the same exact type of program as AA...except that the teens don't have a chemical addiction...so, you cannot really use it as your comparison as they are similar.

You cannot cure alcoholism...while it is considered a "disease" among professionals, it is still obviously often taken over by an individuals choice to allow that "disease" to flourish or die. Because of this, there can never be a cure...so treatment is ALL they have. Am I wrong?

 

[The Doc]

I don't quite understand where you are going with this? No one ever said AA was a cure...in fact, it's called a program for a reason. In fact...Teen Challenge, despite their so-called "success rate," is still the same exact type of program as AA...except that the teens don't have a chemical addiction...so, you cannot really use it as your comparison as they are similar.

You cannot cure alcoholism...while it is considered a "disease" among professionals, it is still obviously often taken over by an individuals choice to allow that "disease" to flourish or die. Because of this, there can never be a cure...so treatment is ALL they have. Am I wrong?

No teen challenge is not nearly the same as AA. Its residential you do a full 1 year to 15 months without freedom while AA meets up for an hour thengo do whatever they want. Teen Challenge is just a name, most of them are ADULT programs. Also, it is specifically for drug addictions. Their motto is "The proven cure for the drug epidemic". I graduated from a teen challenge program. Did it ONE time. I dont do meeting every week or anything like that. Did the 15 months. I have been good since. Learned the lesson. Drug addictions and alcohol are cured by not doing them. There was a point when mental health professionals thought homosexuality was a mental disease, but now its not. I personally think it is, but thats not the point. mental health personnel define many things as diseases then change their minds. If you can make it go away you cured it. If you just suppress it your treating it.

:clap:clapsometimes the one thing people need is to sit around in a circle of friends and talk about their feelings. That is not something that just comes easily for most of us.

Be a man and deal with it yourself. Talking to others about your feelings is gay. Atleast as an adult you should be self-dependent. You should be able to deal with your own problems while balancing others without help.

How about calling you young.

I could be wrong and perhaps the times have changed, but I believe even organizations dealing with the military do "gay" things.

Yes military organizations do 'gay' things. I take pride in being self-efficient.

 

[anathelia]

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't make it "gay" by any stretch of the imagination. AA/NA/HA/etc works for some people. If you feel that talking about your feelings doesn't work for you, that's fine. But you can't knock the people who it does help. And without some sort of cognitive behavioral therapy or some such, I don't think there's a "cure" for a chemical imbalance.

You're the type of person that is the reason people self medicate with alcohol and drugs. Because to you, and many many others, it's not socially or culturally acceptable for a man to ask for help. And that's a bull attitude.

 

[MjaneGibson]

No teen challenge is not nearly the same as AA. Its residential you do a full 1 year to 15 months without freedom while AA meets up for an hour thengo do whatever they want. Teen Challenge is just a name, most of them are ADULT programs. Also, it is specifically for drug addictions. Their motto is "The proven cure for the drug epidemic". I graduated from a teen challenge program. Did it ONE time. I dont do meeting every week or anything like that. Did the 15 months. I have been good since. Learned the lesson. Drug addictions and alcohol are cured by not doing them. There was a point when mental health professionals thought homosexuality was a mental disease, but now its not. I personally think it is, but thats not the point. mental health personnel define many things as diseases then change their minds. If you can make it go away you cured it. If you just suppress it your treating it.

I meant in terms of it not being a cure...anything involving actions people take on their own accord cannot be "cured." Regardless of the fact that it happens over a longer and more consistent time period does NOT change the fact that it is still only a treatment. You wrote "drug addictions and alcohol are cured by not doing them." While I get what you mean, this is not always the case. If you are a full blown alcoholic or meth addict or heroine addict, you cannot just wake up one morning and say "I'm not doing drugs today." You will get physically sick...it requires TREATMENT. Even after that treatment, there is no garrantee, and not even in your case of Teen Challenge.

Be a man and deal with it yourself. Talking to others about your feelings is gay. Atleast as an adult you should be self-dependent. You should be able to deal with your own problems while balancing others without help.

For someone who went through this Teen Challenge...I find it a little ridiculous that you consider someone asking for help or talking about their "feelings" is sooooo "gay." First of all, didn't want to be that person who flips, but stop calling something you think is "silly" GAY. It is not HOMOSEXUAL or HAPPY to talk about your feelings...use the appropriate words.

In terms of dealing with your own problems, that is why people go to AA and NA...to help fix their problems. Show me someone who has never asked for help, and maybe I'll reconsider this notion.

Yes military organizations do 'gay' things. I take pride in being self-efficient.

Not even going to comment on this one because you obviously don't realize that "gay" should not be used in a derogatory way or simply thrown in with other words as you see fit.