Alcoholics Anonymous

[sexysadie]

The mods know what I said in private.

 

[Peter Parka]

I didn't dish it out in secret, I told you right here on the forum, all I said...........never mind Peter. Carry on.

Only after I called you out on it. Noyt only are you a coward, you are also a liar

Not cool Peter I think you and Sadie just have different opinions on the matter...no need for name calling though. Not trying to get involved, but insults need not fly...right?

You're right, there is no need for name calling. This why I have no time for someone when I'm having a civil debate resorting to secret name calling for no reason.

 

[sexysadie]

Oh and thanks for the rep Sadie but I hardly think someone with your level of inteligence is in any position to insult other peoples intelligence. :24: Good of you to be a big coward and do it secretly rather than out in the open where everyone can see.

Not really, I just have no time for cowards who call me pre-school in secret. Especially when the person who does it is a middle aged woman who spends her days flirting with everything thats supposed to have a dick on the internet. Definate case of pot, kettle and black!

I'm not in any corner. You're the one backing out because I've shown you up as the spiteful little coward that you are. Go back to looking for cock, reasonable debate is obviously beyond you.

Only after I called you out on it. Noyt only are you a coward, you are also a liar




You're right, there is no need for name calling. This why I have no time for someone when I'm having a civil debate resorting to secret name calling for no reason.

............................

 

[Joe the meek]

One has to be licensed to make a diagnosis (administering a valid/reliable assessment and interpreting it based on clinical standards) anyone can infer or look up information, but what good is it? A guy on OTz thinks I'm an alcoholic because he can answer yes/no questions, must be true!

I find it hard to believe that someone with your intelligence (no sarcasm intended) fails to see Mr. AA bashers hypocrisy pertaining not only to this thread, but others. Yes, I'm a big enough dick to call him out on it. I don't hide The fact is Mr hypocrite takes his time not only to bash a program that has actually helped people, but his time to go after people as well.

How many people do you really believe think they have a drinking problem if asked by a court appointed drug councilor because they were ordered by the court system to do so? You work in the court system don't you?

I also really don't know what world you live in if you think people will take time out of their schedule and PAY someone to tell them that they may have some sort of dependency on drugs.

 

[Peter Parka]

If you want to call me a hypocrite, knock yourself out. I couldn't care less about a persons opinion on alcohol when they clearly are speaking out of their arse about it and wrongly think that drinking a beer makes someone an alcoholic. :24:

 

[Ronpaul]

That's what I've heard. I watched a Penn & Teller BS on AA. Penn said there are secular programs that are just as effective.







http://www.sportsshoesforsale.com/asics-shoes-c-60.html/

 

[The Doc]

in AA/NA you dont need to believe in God, just a higher power. it could be a Dog, a rock, etc... The people who say higher power is God and try to convert people to Christianity 'behind the scenes' are looked down upon. I did NA once,

 

[Codrus]

in AA/NA you dont need to believe in Cod, just a higher power. it could be a Dog, a rock, etc... The people who say higher power is Cod and try to convert people to Christianity 'behind the scenes' are looked down upon. I did NA once,

 

[HK]

in AA/NA you dont need to believe in God, just a higher power. it could be a Dog, a rock, etc... The people who say higher power is God and try to convert people to Christianity 'behind the scenes' are looked down upon. I did NA once,

Even so, it still works on the assumption that people are happy to believe there is something with an active form of control over their life. There are lots of people out there who have no belief in any form of higher power, God-related or not.

 

[Joe the meek]

Even so, it still works on the assumption that people are happy to believe there is something with an active form of control over their life. There are lots of people out there who have no belief in any form of higher power, God-related or not.

What some people fail to realize is that if you're an alcoholic, you don't have control over your life, but many times you try to convince yourself you do. Usually when someone thinks of an alcoholic, they think of a guy in the gutter or a guy who fails to control himself when he's had a couple, or perhaps a guy who just drinks from a bottle on a regular basis by himself. The fact is, there are many forms of "functioning" alcoholics who HAVE to have that drink. And yes, I always found it ironic that people chain smoke and drink coffee like it's going out of style LOL However, I'd like to think that as some people "climb the ladder" of their realizations of why they may of drink, you come to the conclusion that there are many other forms of addictions than just alcohol.

 

[HK]

I understand that being an alcoholic or a drug addict means a lack of control coupled with the illusion of control.

However, it would still be difficult for someone like myself to be told to put my recovery into the hands of something I do not believe in. You can't just pluck faith out of thin air when you need it. Having no control over your life doesn't equal a need for something bigger than yourself to take over - I'd prefer to be taught how to take back control myself.

 

[Panacea]

I understand that being an alcoholic or a drug addict means a lack of control coupled with the illusion of control.

However, it would still be difficult for someone like myself to be told to put my recovery into the hands of something I do not believe in. You can't just pluck faith out of thin air when you need it. Having no control over your life doesn't equal a need for something bigger than yourself to take over - I'd prefer to be taught how to take back control myself.

I assemble an AA/NA packet for our clients, and "God" is on 12 of the 14 pages at least once each. The only time it isn't is where it lists meetings. When people say you only need a higher power, I think they are missing the clear over tone that the higher power has to be a god of some sort.

Because good luck turning your life over to a fucking rock.

To the non-believing person looking to find recovery with AA/NA/Alanon, I suggest surrendering your decisions and beliefs over to the program itself, and acknowledging the program and those friends you meet when getting support are your best way to regain control and get on a good path.

When they say god and higher power, just ignore it. Trying to get a non-believer to skirt around god with higher power is like trying to fit a goat through a mail slot. Worthless and painful.

 

[BornReady]

To the non-believing person looking to find recovery with AA/NA/Alanon, I suggest surrendering your decisions and beliefs over to the program itself, and acknowledging the program and those friends you meet when getting support are your best way to regain control and get on a good path.

Are there no secular programs geared to the non-believer? If there are secular programs, then I would think non-believers should select one of those rather than a program designed for believers. If I had a drinking problem then I would just as soon burn incense, chant and sacrifice a goat as go to AA.

 

[Panacea]

Are there no secular programs geared to the non-believer? If there are secular programs, then I would think non-believers should select one of those rather than a program designed for believers. If I had a drinking problem then I would just as soon burn incense, chant and sacrifice a goat as go to AA.

Secular wellness programs aren't a priority in general, and I can't think of any secular recovery programs off the top of my head.

We actually bully our clients into church programs and it drives me batshit. If our clients are homeless, we send them to a ministry program (2x daily sermons, praying at night, working for the church's stores) or we send them to jail/prison.

THAT'S fair.

 

[The Doc]

Believing in a higher power doesnt make it religious. For all they care, your higher power can be the guy who lifts more then you at the gym, or even an IPOD or something...shit...

Secular, religious it shouldent matter. As long as the desired effect happens.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Are there no secular programs geared to the non-believer? If there are secular programs, then I would think non-believers should select one of those rather than a program designed for believers. If I had a drinking problem then I would just as soon burn incense, chant and sacrifice a goat as go to AA.

This program claims a high success rate:

https://rational.org/index.php?id=1

 

[Panacea]

Believing in a higher power doesnt make it religious.

Correct

For all they care, your higher power can be the guy who lifts more then you at the gym, or even an IPOD or something...shit...

Someone out of control with drugs or alcohol cannot turn their life over to the guy who lifts more than them at the gym or their ipod, as the program asks. They also cannot know the ipod has a plan for their life.

AA also asks the person seeking recovery to ask the higher power to remove them of their shortcomings, and all of this is very vital for success when doing step work.

Religion and a higher power are mutually exclusive, you're on the right track there. AA/NA allow you to define you own higher power, yes, but this is not a rock or a really cool looking piece of dog poop.

The "as we define it" part of the higher power refers to being more accommodating spiritually, not in a secular realm. I think this is very good on their part, because they don't need the person to believe in THEIR god, just A god of some sort. That covers most of the population.

For the small chunk of people who don't have a spiritual life, it gets trickier.

 

[BornReady]

This program claims a high success rate:

https://rational.org/index.php?id=1

Interesting article. Here are some controversial statements from the article.

It is not well-known that self-recovery is commonplace. For ages, seriously addicted people have simply quit the use of alcohol and other drugs and then gotten on with their lives. ... Today, millions of seriously addicted people simply get fed up with the results of their addictions, make a decision to abstain no matter what, and then move on to discover new and better satisfactions. ... These independently recovered people greatly outnumber the combined membership of the support group networks, but in our society, they are overlooked as if they don't exist.

This rings true to me. After all, drugs have been around for thousands of years but AA for less than a hundred. What do you think?

It must be understood that AA is a fellowship of addiction, and not a fellowship of recovery. In other words, the membership consists entirely of people who have not, and will not, summarily quit the use of alcohol and other drugs. Rather, they reserve for themselves the option of “relapses,” or drinking episodes under color of addictive disease.

Wow! Talk about asking people to take responsibility for their life. Are AA support groups the blind leading the blind?

 

[HK]

Even if it were possible that they were happy for you to put your faith in a rock - it still requires faith itself. Some people do not have faith in the existence of any higher power whatsoever.

The issue isn't what the higher power is, it's that expect you to just accept one is out there.

 

[Panacea]

Wow! Talk about asking people to take responsibility for their life. Are AA support groups the blind leading the blind?

It's a good way to put it, really, but addicts don't very often listen to professionals. They look down on professionals, because it's a lot less intimidating to go find support from someone who is just like you. It's like some exclusive bullshit club.

It is clinically believed that relapse is a part of recovery in the disease model, ya. I've noticed many people from AA find transfer addictions in one or more of the following:

1. Self-righteousness/preaching
2. Smoking/coffee
3. Talking about doing drugs
4. God
5. Gossiping/busy-body syndrome

The first thing a person tells us when they've spiraled into a life of drugs and crime after a period of sobriety is "I stopped going to meetings". Very interesting. AA has to be the active addiction for these people.

Afterall, their slogan is "keep coming back".