Would you like to travel to Karachi “the most dangerous megacity” in the world? Why and Why Not?

[Joe the meek]

Here again,..

I have read a bit about American history...which is really interesting. What was once an offense is now a blessing

Pakistan is not like Afghanistan,,,only cousins of Afgh are found up north and south west...they have a different culture.

They are overall religious minded....and yearn for Sharia.
They say they want it because secular laws have failed to provide them with speedy justice...and they are left open to criminal hazards.

Sharia surely provided security to citizens through stringent punitive laws...but it is not only laws that matter but the formation of a welfare culture...and for that one needs to work hard and earn and pay its taxes..

In a place where the real number of its citizens is not recorded one must not expect miraculous administration or organisation..
and it is foolish to compare a third world country with any developed country...given the differing socio economic and political situations there..

America is a secular country....but I noted that at heart it is still a Christian state. Bravo Bush!! You dreamt a crusade and have led the world into chaos once more!!

America for the most part is Christian.

That said, was it the Christian thing to do how we took the country away from the indians?

My point is people hide behind religion and in general, use it (religion) to their advantage when they can.

I've always wondered myself if all men are created equal (Constitution), why were slaves such a large part of American history?

Personally, considering myself a Christian, I'm suspect of any organized religion. I find it hard to believe that throughout the history of Islam, the religious leaders didn't use their religion to control their people at some time (like Christians).

The idea behind our government is that if you wanted to come to America, you could practice your Islamic faith without fear of punishment. That said, IMO people are ignorant, and even though there are laws to protect people, some people in their fear and ignorance, would try to make your life miserable due to your faith. Hopefully however, the laws are in place to protect people in the minority.

Keep in mind, both sets of my grandparents came off the boat in America in the early 1900's. Both families worked the coal mines, both grandfathers died before they hit 45 due to work related accidents. That said, my parents worked hard, my wife's parents worked hard, both my wife and I work hard, and I consider our lives blessed due to that work.

 

[Joe the meek]

In other words MAZ..we elect people to make those laws and choices for us.
Its far from perfect as the goal is to be elected rather than to serve the people...however you do get some good people in office

BUT…that is the beauty of the legislative, executive and judicial branches, seperation of powers within the government.

We elect people to government to make laws, BUT the supreme court can rule those laws unconstitutional.

Couple of months ago went over the pledge of allegiance with my cub scout pack. I found it shocking that some people were actually killed in the US because they refused to pledge to the flag due to their religious beliefs.

The idea and beauty behind our government is that the majority does NOT rule the minority. Yes, it's still a work in progress, but the building blocks are there.

 

[The Man]

BUT…that is the beauty of the legislative, executive and judicial branches, seperation of powers within the government.

We elect people to government to make laws, BUT the supreme court can rule those laws unconstitutional.

Couple of months ago went over the pledge of allegiance with my cub scout pack. I found it shocking that some people were actually killed in the US because they refused to pledge to the flag due to their religious beliefs.

The idea and beauty behind our government is that the majority does NOT rule the minority. Yes, it's still a work in progress, but the building blocks are there.

I see that as where religious beliefs gone to far..not saying it should be a law to have to say the pledge..but if it is law then that should apply for all regardless of religion.
While I respect people religions and the right to worship anything they want..it should stop there.
Lets say you have religion abc and its belief is to not pay taxes and to kill the first child seen at sunrise on Saturday we have a problem lol.
A Jehovah witness for example can deny shots or blood to a child..which would be criminal neglect if not a JH....result a child is denied protection from its parents due to a belief...who do we blame the state or the religion..we blame the religion..but the actual fault is the state for allowing it to happen..while their job is to prevent such things from happening.

 

[Joe the meek]

I see that as where religious beliefs gone to far..not saying it should be a law to have to say the pledge..but if it is law then that should apply for all regardless of religion.
While I respect people religions and the right to worship anything they want..it should stop there.
Lets say you have religion abc and its belief is to not pay taxes and to kill the first child seen at sunrise on Saturday we have a problem lol.
A Jehovah witness for example can deny shots or blood to a child..which would be criminal neglect if not a JH....result a child is denied protection from its parents due to a belief...who do we blame the state or the religion..we blame the religion..but the actual fault is the state for allowing it to happen..while their job is to prevent such things from happening.

I believe you may have the JW mixed up with another religious sect that refuses modern medicine, I'm not certain.

Ironically enought though it was the JW religious sect that was persecuted in the United States for not pledging allegiance to the flag, as it was against their religious beliefs as they thought it being worship. These people were killed (not by the thousands) but in individual states where people thought they were unpatriotic. Sadly enough, this same religious sect was percescuted in Germany for the same reason, and was sent to the death camps due to that same reason.

I do find it funny that people will have a crap fit if anyone would dare to take the word "God" out of the pledge of allegiance, but the fact is "God" wasn't inserted into the pledge until about 40 years AFTER the pledge came to being.

 

[Stone]

Man is correct about the blood transfusions and JW.
It's the Christian Scientists that have issues with all of medical treatments.
Persecution did occur in the US over pledging to the flag during wars, but in Germany, the bigger issue was refusal to military service.

Religious persecution occurred between several mainstream fundamentalist Christian religions and smaller denominations in several of the Colonies before our Revolution and is responsible for Madison pushing for a separation of Church and State in the Constitution.

 

[Joe the meek]

Persecution did occur in the US over pledging to the flag during wars, but in Germany, the bigger issue was refusal to military service.

Part of my point is the Americans are no different than anyone else and can suffer from hysteria and fear and do stupid things like anyone else.

We read about what someone does in the Middle East in the name of religion and we Americans can end up thinking that the whole country we're reading about is ape shit crazy. By the same token, I can only imagine what the rest of the world thinks about America when they come across a Westboro Baptist Church rally or something along the lines of the Sandy Hook school shooting.

Generally, people form an opinion about a country from what they read, not from actually living there over a period of time.

 

[Joe the meek]

I do realize the 'real bitch' but even minorities must follow and respect the law of the land otherwise they would face trouble.
Oppression of the majority by the minority is yet another problem...
Minorities are fully protected in monarchies such as Saudia...
but with Taliban I cannot be sure...I am for Sharia but not what exactly the one Taliban want to dictate...

As a born Muslim I found Islam as most liberal of all religions...
there is no compulsion in Islam but who's going to make Taliban and their folks understand??
Why should I be forced to keep a beard?
Why shouldn't i not be allowed to watch tv?
Why should i be forced to pray 5 times a day??
Why should I be compelled to observe religious rituals as Taliban want??
Why should I obey their command??
Why should I put my women folk in a shroud??
Why should I not watch videos and movies??

these and many other questions pose hindrance to acceptance of Taliban belief...

Why should you not be able to do things you enjoy?

Sincere question…

I didn't get married until I was around 38.

Under your religious law, would I be allowed to have sex with a single woman who wasn't married? (I'm guessing no?)

Funny thing, most religions frown upon unwed sex (there is a topic unto its own LOL).

You want to be able to do things you enjoy. If I'm single and have no children, why shouldn't I be able to have sex with a consulting adult? Who is it hurting when two consenting adults have sex? Why should I be denied the things that I enjoy in life if I'm not hurting anyone only due to the fact that I'm breaking some "religious law"?

One could argue that both the Koran and Bible is nothing but a hoax created by men to control other men.

 

[Stone]

Part of my point is the Americans are no different than anyone else and can suffer from hysteria and fear and do stupid things like anyone else.

We read about what someone does in the Middle East in the name of religion and we Americans can end up thinking that the whole country we're reading about is ape shit crazy. By the same token, I can only imagine what the rest of the world thinks about America when they come across a Westboro Baptist Church rally or something along the lines of the Sandy Hook school shooting.

Generally, people form an opinion about a country from what they read, not from actually living there over a period of time.

Part of my point is the Americans are no different than anyone else and can suffer from hysteria and fear and do stupid things like anyone else.

Sincerely, you are incorrect in that logic.
There are immoral and unethical people in all societies, the real issue is the character of the society as a whole.
There is no comparison between the US and Germany's treatment of dissidents leading to and during WW2.
There are examples in each of terrible crimes, but one nation devised corrections in their legal system to address abuses while the other built ovens.
Do you see the difference?

There in no such thing as a perfect world and won't be. But societies that strive to correct injustices are relatively more moral and ethical than those that cover up and ignore abuses.

The conflict with mazHur is he has initially claimed a high road that his culture follows while western civilization morals and ethics are beneath the Pakistani.
Situation is...on researching Pakistan and it's society, it's not what mazHur claims. It is truly a shithole of misery enforced by terrorist mentalities since at least the time PK split off of India and probably long before.
Think not? Study up on the atrocities both sides inflicted upon each other.
Pakistan has not made sincere attempts to correct the wrongs within itself.
I have posted many findings by reliable sources showing the incredible depths of suffering in PK done by their own citizens on a nation wide scale.

By the same token, I can only imagine what the rest of the world thinks about America when they come across a Westboro Baptist Church rally or something along the lines of the Sandy Hook school shooting.

If such a person isn't looking at the scale of these crimes through a society, yes, that could happen.
That's what mazHur is banking on.......other debaters not researching his claims.
I do.
Man does.

You been conversing with mazHur for a week or so. And he's playing to your liberal sensibilities.
I've been reading his contradictions since early this year.
He's posting what you want to hear. But sometimes he slips up and the racism shows, the terrorist sympathizer shows, the sexual deviant shows........I know, sounds over the top, but each time he posted that way, he was called out on it. You just weren't here to see it.

How about this.....check out all the threads he's started and ask yourself if he's debating or papering this web site with anti US propaganda.

Generally, people form an opinion about a country from what they read, not from actually living there over a period of time

Depends upon who they are reading, Joe.

 

[mazHur]

Without laws this world would go haywire...
But most important is Justice.

and justice can only be done if you are honest.

 

[mazHur]

As a non religious person you may be right....but universally your ideas, assertions and wants will not be acceptable. these vary from people to people , country to country and even 'religious law', which is generally understood as a Code Of Life needs man made laws to enforce them in one form or another..

Islam prescribes any kind of extra marital sex as major sin and this 'sin' is enforced as a 'crime' by man made laws..However, religious laws are not often observed by their adherents in any place..Even as a single you could find a consenting partner to have sex with,...or as a few Muslims, particularly Shia's of Iran, have developed a fantastic theory to justify extra marital sex or even sodomy through misinterpretations of religious law...for that they have coined a word 'Muta'a' ie temporary marriage..
You can google for more about Muta'a and rest assure humans are more clever than religious law in distorting it to suit their own vested interests.

For example, in you country you can have consensual sex with you partner..pretty secular indeed...but not totally secular because your laws place a bar on men taking more than one wife..that is absurd and foolish law in that that is curbing someones human right. While taking multiple wives sounds seems partial to some die hard champions of women rights this is not so if you studied the philosophy behind multiple wives taken by men...
Extra marital sex in any case IS immoral...and reflects upon a complete society...and damages the family system.

Have you ever noted who's the loser in extra marital sex?women, ofcourse. You don't feel the brunt of it because such act and its consequences have your state's blessings..ie your state takes responsibility for its after effects..illicit children, abortion, maintainance etc...This is not so everywhere..not in Pak or even in any Muslim majority country..
therefore evidently you cannot do all you want to satiate your lust for anything you want...in every place when, by religious law. you are permitted to marry not one but 4 houris at a time!! If you don't do that people call it lechery or debauchery and without social security or med you will meet your end, especially women.

Bastards are NOT acceptable in a Muslim society...therefore it is better to have legitimate wives and legitimate children rather than to indulge in debauchery only to escape familial responsibility because your state accepts it instead.

 

[mazHur]

Sincerely, you are incorrect in that logic.
There are immoral and unethical people in all societies, the real issue is the character of the society as a whole.
There is no comparison between the US and Germany's treatment of dissidents leading to and during WW2.
There are examples in each of terrible crimes, but one nation devised corrections in their legal system to address abuses while the other built ovens.
Do you see the difference?

There in no such thing as a perfect world and won't be. But societies that strive to correct injustices are relatively more moral and ethical than those that cover up and ignore abuses.

The conflict with mazHur is he has initially claimed a high road that his culture follows while western civilization morals and ethics are beneath the Pakistani.
Situation is...on researching Pakistan and it's society, it's not what mazHur claims. It is truly a shithole of misery enforced by terrorist mentalities since at least the time PK split off of India and probably long before.
Think not? Study up on the atrocities both sides inflicted upon each other.
Pakistan has not made sincere attempts to correct the wrongs within itself.
I have posted many findings by reliable sources showing the incredible depths of suffering in PK done by their own citizens on a nation wide scale.



If such a person isn't looking at the scale of these crimes through a society, yes, that could happen.
That's what mazHur is banking on.......other debaters not researching his claims.
I do.
Man does.

You been conversing with mazHur for a week or so. And he's playing to your liberal sensibilities.
I've been reading his contradictions since early this year.
He's posting what you want to hear. But sometimes he slips up and the racism shows, the terrorist sympathizer shows, the sexual deviant shows........I know, sounds over the top, but each time he posted that way, he was called out on it. You just weren't here to see it.

How about this.....check out all the threads he's started and ask yourself if he's debating or papering this web site with anti US propaganda.


Depends upon who they are reading, Joe.

OMG! Save our souls from Stones!!

 

[mazHur]

You implied the people up north{where the Taliban reservations are} in the post I was referencing.
But yeah...ok...if all of pk wants sharia..I dont buy it....why would they kill the puritans they when they enter the city?????

nothing is 'implied' , fruit cake! Keep abreast with current affairs before you take to debating...and try to be honest.

There are divisions among puritans as well...and they are usually at loggerheads most of the time..

 

[The Man]

For example, in you country you can have consensual sex with you partner..pretty secular indeed...but not totally secular because your laws place a bar on men taking more than one wife..that is absurd and foolish law in that that is curbing someones human right. While taking multiple wives sounds seems partial to some die hard champions of women rights this is not so if you studied the philosophy behind multiple wives taken by men

Essentially you have multiple wives so you can have multiple sex partners..in the states its not a crime to have multiple sex partners...however having sex with someone other than the spouse is called cheating and can be grounds for divorce.
As far as human rights as you are mentioning of which we have argued before....you are discriminating against your women...as the women are not allowed to have multiple husbands unless they want to be executed.
To further..if one person has four wives...that leaves three men without wives {given an equal ratio of men to women}
How is that fair to them.....there are no equal protection in PK ...period.
Hell the 9 month old baby being charged with attempted murder there in PK..is enough to show there are not even child protections/ nor any kind of sanity in the system.
Now take the USA..we have a written system to provide equal protections and rights for all...it works for the most part...I admit its not perfect though but the goal is to have the "perfect system"..the effort is there however

 

[mazHur]

America for the most part is Christian.

That said, was it the Christian thing to do how we took the country away from the indians?

My point is people hide behind religion and in general, use it (religion) to their advantage when they can.

I've always wondered myself if all men are created equal (Constitution), why were slaves such a large part of American history?

Personally, considering myself a Christian, I'm suspect of any organized religion. I find it hard to believe that throughout the history of Islam, the religious leaders didn't use their religion to control their people at some time (like Christians).

The idea behind our government is that if you wanted to come to America, you could practice your Islamic faith without fear of punishment. That said, IMO people are ignorant, and even though there are laws to protect people, some people in their fear and ignorance, would try to make your life miserable due to your faith. Hopefully however, the laws are in place to protect people in the minority.

Keep in mind, both sets of my grandparents came off the boat in America in the early 1900's. Both families worked the coal mines, both grandfathers died before they hit 45 due to work related accidents. That said, my parents worked hard, my wife's parents worked hard, both my wife and I work hard, and I consider our lives blessed due to that work.

It's heartening to know how you made your way through hardships that your great elders bore in the past and that you are now content with our achievement.

Muslims did use religion at times to spread out in the world and gain victories. In the initial stages of Islam all the victories that Muslims gained were due to religious fervor and strength..they conquered Spain, Persia, Mesopotamia, and established govts in the south and far east..Saladin waged Jihad against Christians United to regain Palestine...Progeny of Ghengiz Khan got convrted to Islam and ruled far east/south Asia as Chughtai's and later the Great Moghuls...and so on.
However, Muslims never employed religious laws in toto to govern their citizens...except may be in their initial period of growth, Most of Islamic history is ridden with blood shed..dynastic killings over trifles...and expansionism just like other colonialists such as Britain...


Regarding slavery, Islam is against it but I think it doesn't ban slavery ...but a Muslim can never keep another Muslim as a slave..never because they belong to the same universal brotherhood..there is No diff between black and white or Arab or non Arab amongst Muslims....only the one who is pious and learned supersedes the lesser person/ In other words a Muslim must be qualified enough to be a better person or a leader, both in terms of letter and spirit , character and conduct.

The Moghuls who ruled India for centuries did not employ religion to rule their people.....only one King tried to be somewhat fundamental or staunch Muslim which ultimately made him unpopular among the Hindus.... yet he ruled India as King for about 50 years!

 

[mazHur]

Essentially you have multiple wives so you can have multiple sex partners..in the states its not a crime to have multiple sex partners...however having sex with someone other than the spouse is called cheating and can be grounds for divorce.
As far as human rights as you are mentioning of which we have argued before....you are discriminating against your women...as the women are not allowed to have multiple husbands unless they want to be executed.
To further..if one person has four wives...that leaves three men without wives {given an equal ratio of men to women}
How is that fair to them.....there are no equal protection in PK ...period.
Hell the 9 month old baby being charged with attempted murder there in PK..is enough to show there are not even child protections/ nor any kind of sanity in the system.
Now take the USA..we have a written system to provide equal protections and rights for all...it works for the most part...I admit its not perfect though but the goal is to have the "perfect system"..the effort is there however

Nonsense...go to Central Asian countries or Russia and you will find a dozen women for one man!!

 

[mazHur]

Essentially you have multiple wives so you can have multiple sex partners..in the states its not a crime to have multiple sex partners...however having sex with someone other than the spouse is called cheating and can be grounds for divorce.
As far as human rights as you are mentioning of which we have argued before....you are discriminating against your women...as the women are not allowed to have multiple husbands unless they want to be executed.
To further..if one person has four wives...that leaves three men without wives {given an equal ratio of men to women}
How is that fair to them.....there are no equal protection in PK ...period.
Hell the 9 month old baby being charged with attempted murder there in PK..is enough to show there are not even child protections/ nor any kind of sanity in the system.
Now take the USA..we have a written system to provide equal protections and rights for all...it works for the most part...I admit its not perfect though but the goal is to have the "perfect system"..the effort is there however

Joe and I were talking about 'religious freedom' and you bumped in with your nonsense. How could you justify your claim of 'religious freedom' to Muslims by preventing them from having 4 wives?? At the moment we are not talking about 'human or women rights

 

[The Man]

Joe and I were talking about 'religious freedom' and you bumped in with your nonsense. How could you justify your claim of 'religious freedom' to Muslims by preventing them from having 4 wives?? At the moment we are not talking about 'human or women rights

You called it a right...but you want to deny that same right to women.
Also I never injected religious freedom into my post as you claim.
But since you have/ we have discovered that Islam is very flawed in regard to women's and childs protections.
Therefore Islamic law is not practical for its citizens.

 

[Stone]

OMG! Save our souls from Stones!!

You are mazHur Butt.....yours is already lost

 

[The Man]

nothing is 'implied' , fruit cake! Keep abreast with current affairs before you take to debating...and try to be honest.

There are divisions among puritans as well...and they are usually at loggerheads most of the time..

You have stated that the Taliban concentrations are up north in other posts and threads..thus why the statement.

 

[The Man]

Islam prescribes any kind of extra marital sex as major sin and this 'sin' is enforced as a 'crime' by man made laws

You support what I stated prior.