Why do you believe in God?

[luc154]

So that's it is it? That's your answer.... 'God did it'. That's your idea of the "critical thinking" that you claim Christians use.

He is the source of everything. He does as He pleases. What is your question?

 

[pladecalvo]

He is the source of everything. He does as He pleases. What is your question?

Are you deliberately being obtuse luc? The "question" is the one that you have been avoiding for the last couple of pages.

How can the gospels be eye-witness accounts when the evidence shows that they were not written by eye-witnesses?

 

[luc154]

Are you deliberately being obtuse luc? The "question" is the one that you have been avoiding for the last couple of pages.

How can the gospels be eye-witness accounts when the evidence shows that they were not written by eye-witnesses?

Why do you believe that the gospel writers were not eye-witnesses?

 

[pladecalvo]

He is the source of everything. He does as He pleases.

Yes so you've already said...and I asked you if answering questions with Christian cop-out phrases like 'God did it', 'we can't understand God', 'who are we to question God's actions' and 'God can do everything'....is an example of the critical thinking that you yourself claim Christians use to question their beliefs?

 

[luc154]

Yes so you've already said...and I asked you if answering questions with Christian cop-out phrases like 'God did it', 'we can't understand God', 'who are we to question God's actions' and 'God can do everything'....is an example of the critical thinking that you yourself claim Christians use to question their beliefs?

To know God does all according to His will is not critical thinking. It is an observation.

 

[pladecalvo]

You have already asked that question and I have already referred you to post 256.

 

[luc154]

Are you deliberately being obtuse luc? The "question" is the one that you have been avoiding for the last couple of pages.

How can the gospels be eye-witness accounts when the evidence shows that they were not written by eye-witnesses?

Read acts 1:21 where it says this:
'Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us'.
The list of the eye witnesses is given in vers 13, so all these men walked with Jesus till His crucifixion.
The gospel writers John and Matthew were among them.

Read John 21:24:
'This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.'

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

Read acts 1:21 where it says this:
'Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us'.
The list of the eye witnesses is given in vers 13, so all these men walked with Jesus till His crucifixion.
The gospel writers John and Matthew were among them.

Read John 21:24:
'This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.'

psssssst......

Thomas still wouldn't believe you.

Bet you a 20.

 

[pladecalvo]

Read acts 1:21 where it says this:
'Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us'.

If you are going to quote scripture as evidence then you are going to have to show that the Bible is true and accurate by producing verifiable, objective evidence for it's truth. The fact that you believe it is the truth is not evidence. Also, please produce what you claim are the "eye-witness reports" of Peter, James, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, James, son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot and Judas.

The list of the eye witnesses is given in vers 13, so all these men walked with Jesus till His crucifixion.

...and the only evidence for this is the Bible. See what I have written above.

The gospel writers John and Matthew were among them

Neither John or Matthew wrote the gospels. The gospels are anonymous and were given the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, John in the 2rd century CE by Bishop Irenaeus. It was also Irenaeus who decided what would be included in the Bible regarding Gospels. He chose only 4 gospels as "truth" (according to his beliefs) and rejected a great many other 'Gospels'.There is a wealth of impartial scholarly evidence for this fact and you only need to research it....if you're interested in finding 'the truth' that is.

Read John 21
'This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.'

So you are adamant that John wrote this gospel when he was 110 years old then?

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

Told you.

:24:

 

[pladecalvo]

Told you.

:24:

Why would anyone believe when the evidence is against it being true? Only a "God Zombie" would still believe that the Bible is true and accurate. Hell! I bet you don't believe it is.

 

[luc154]

If you are going to quote scripture as evidence then you are going to have to show that the Bible is true and accurate by producing verifiable, objective evidence for it's truth. The fact that you believe it is the truth is not evidence.

I have no reason the believe that the Bible is false or unreliable. However, in the beginning as a born again christian, I had my doubts. I have investigated the Bible and found that this book cannot come out of mere human creatures. It is not like any other book ever written. The men who wrote this must have had some supernatural source working in them, we call it the holy Spirit with Whom I am now familiar with. You see hundreds of fulfilled prophecies. Writings of 40 different people from all classes that all say the same thing, no contradictions, even though it took them 1600 years to complete this supernatural book. Praise Gods grace for leaving us such a book.

Also, please produce what you claim are the "eye-witness reports" of Peter, James, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, James, son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot and Judas.

...and the only evidence for this is the Bible. See what I have written above.

Neither John or Matthew wrote the gospels. The gospels are anonymous and were given the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, John in the 2rd century CE by Bishop Irenaeus. It was also Irenaeus who decided what would be included in the Bible regarding Gospels. He chose only 4 gospels as "truth" (according to his beliefs) and rejected a great many other 'Gospels'.There is a wealth of impartial scholarly evidence for this fact and you only need to research it....if you're interested in finding 'the truth' that is.

So you are adamant that John wrote this gospel when he was 110 years old then?

Note that Irenaeus was well entrusted with Jewish and Christian theology. He was the right man for the job to determine which gospels belonged to the Bible.Many of the non-canonical gospels (Philip, Thomas, Peter, James ...) were not harmoniously consistent and not in accordence with the teachings of the Lord Jesus.
God will make sure that His book will be given down generations the way He has ordained it.

 

[GraceAbounds]

I have no reason the believe that the Bible is false or unreliable. However, in the beginning as a born again christian, I had my doubts. I have investigated the Bible and found that this book cannot come out of mere human creatures. It is not like any other book ever written. The men who wrote this must have had some supernatural source working in them, we call it the holy Spirit wtih Whom I am now familiar with. You see hundreds of fulfilled prophecies. Writings of 40 different people from all classes that all say the same thing, no contradictions, even though it took them 1600 years to complete this supernatural book. Praise Gods grace for leaving us such a book.

Note that Irenaeus was well entrusted with Jewish and Christian theology. He was the right man for the job to determine which gospels belonged to the Bible.Many of the non-canonical gospels (Philip, Thomas, Peter, James ...) were not harmoniously consistent and not in accordence with the teachings of the Lord Jesus.
God will make sure that His book will be given down generations the way He has ordained it.

Nice post.

to every post in this thread made by luc154

 

[groundpounder]

And actually matter has formed out of "thin air" in some experiments in vacuums.

I've been purposely out of this thread, but decided to take a peek.

AEF, can you back this up with a link or something? Not picking, just wondering...

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I have said it plenty of times before, and not sure I haven't already stated it in this thread.

My notion of the existence of a higher power, is rooted in my refusal to cling to the concept that we are it, that we are the biggest thing out there.

I like the idea of thinking that perhaps there is a much more powerful force driving us, even if that force is all internal, I like it.

It to me is arrogant to think we are the beginning and end of all, in fact seeing society these days, that frightens me closer to the hope that maybe there is something that can turn us around.

But to me it's okay for anyone else to believe the way they want to, nobody has to agree with me, feel the way I do and consequently, I never feel self centered that "I'm not doing it right".

If "God, Higher Power etc." isn't human borne, then it isn't human driven either.

I choose to keep it a very personal thing.....The way I wish so many others would do, attraction always seems to work better than promotion....In my humble opinion.

 

[Minor Axis]

Infinity is beyond rational comprehension. Humans are to restricted to understand eternity. However, that does not mean that eternity does not exist. We don't know personally what happens after you die. If you want proof you can accept or reject the witness accounts of the people that saw Jesus after His death. Or else they were lying or they were telling the truth. You can believe or reject it.

Jesus claimed that He was the son of God. Or else He was right or else He was wrong. There is no in between. There is an absolute truth out there and those who claim it have to be investigated.

I agree.

I have found that Jesus claimed it and have found that He is right. Not because i am so smart, but because God has revealed it to me as He has done to thousands.

Is that something you can or care to describe how it happened for you?

You can only come to God through faith. Once you have come upon that bases, He will give you the proof personally.

How does he do that (again, only if you care to describe it)?

I stopped believing in God when I was 14. All I believe now is that it's a theory that can't be proven or disproven, at least, in this point in time.

Do you have any leanings one way or the other about your spirit that continues beyond physical life? Personally I'd bet there is an existence beyond our physical life, but it's just an unsubstantiated feeling.

 

[gillibean]

I have said it plenty of times before, and not sure I haven't already stated it in this thread.

My notion of the existence of a higher power, is rooted in my refusal to cling to the concept that we are it, that we are the biggest thing out there.

I like the idea of thinking that perhaps there is a much more powerful force driving us, even if that force is all internal, I like it.

It to me is arrogant to think we are the beginning and end of all, in fact seeing society these days, that frightens me closer to the hope that maybe there is something that can turn us around.

But to me it's okay for anyone else to believe the way they want to, nobody has to agree with me, feel the way I do and consequently, I never feel self centered that "I'm not doing it right".

If "God, Higher Power etc." isn't human borne, then it isn't human driven either.

I choose to keep it a very personal thing.....The way I wish so many others would do, attraction always seems to work better than promotion....In my humble opinion.

I'm radically atheist but I don't think that we are the biggest thing out there. There are certainly other life forms, more diverse and amazing than we could ever imagine. Some of them could be seen as supernatural but they all evolved just like we did. I certainly don't think we are the beginning and end of it all. Humans as we know them right now, are but a teensy blip on the full scale of possibilities of life. I've never met an atheist who disagreed with these ideas.

 

[Minor Axis]

You just don't stop believing in God. If you have stopped believing in Him it means that you have never believed in Him and never knew Him. Once He has put His Spirit into a person, you cannot get rid of it. Even you don't want to get rid of it.

The real problem here is that those who grow up in religious families can have religion drilled into them from a very early age (as has been mentioned in religious threads many times). These "facts" are what the adults are telling you so it must be right-right? You want to believe in heaven and all of the good stuff that is promised, it's a natural result for many religious people.

But those who reject the concept of God, especially the God of any specific religion, who have been raised in religious families, do so because they question and what they are being told does not add up. I don't think a fair God would have a problem with that because (if you believe in him), he did give us the power to reason. Blind acceptance is below the dignity of any intelligent being.

I have no reason the believe that the Bible is false or unreliable. However, in the beginning as a born again christian, I had my doubts. I have investigated the Bible and found that this book cannot come out of mere human creatures. It is not like any other book ever written. The men who wrote this must have had some supernatural source working in them, we call it the holy Spirit with Whom I am now familiar with. You see hundreds of fulfilled prophecies. Writings of 40 different people from all classes that all say the same thing, no contradictions, even though it took them 1600 years to complete this supernatural book. Praise Gods grace for leaving us such a book.

You know the Catholic Church had a conference hundreds (a thousand?) of years ago that decided what to publish in what is considered the present day Bible. That what we read today has been transcribed and deciphered multiple times by an organization with an agenda. The agenda is fidelity to God through the power here on Earth, the Church. Blanket acceptance of the official book of any religion should not be accepted without question. And if you question, then the issue, as always boils down to your faith. It's just a book. It's your faith that makes it what it is or is not.

 

[luc154]

I agree.



Is that something you can or care to describe how it happened for you?

I reacted to Gods drawing me near to Him. I can best describe this as a hunger for the truth. 4 years ago this man came to my house and explained the gospel to me using six little drawings (called 'two ways to live'). I was struck by the simplicity of the truth but what most overwhelmed me was my sence of quilt. I knew I have lived 36 years of my life all for my selfish little me. I had to come clean with God and said that I was sorry for my rebellious atitude toward Him. The next day I was delivered of 2 addictions I had been struggling with and I had a sudden hunger for the words of the Bible. 3 months later God assured me of my salvation and convinced me He put His Spirit in me.

luc154 said:'You can only come to God through faith. Once you have come upon that bases, He will give you the proof personally. '
How does he do that (again, only if you care to describe it)?

I wasn't sure that God existed but I took a leap of faith to believe Him. He rewarded me for trusting and believing in Him by assuring me after 3 months that He is real. It's difficult to explain, it's spiritual.

Do you have any leanings one way or the other about your spirit that continues beyond physical life? Personally I'd bet there is an existence beyond our physical life, but it's just an unsubstantiated feeling.

I only know for sure that my life will not stop after death and that something awesomely good is waiting for me.

 

[Minor Axis]

I only know for sure that my life will not stop after death and that something awesomely good is waiting for me.

I'm happy for you. Thanks for sharing!