Why are you liberals, liberal . . .

[Tim]

Math is not your strong suit, is it? 15% of $50,000 is $7,500 unless mathematics has changed in the last couple of days. But your actual healthcare costs are 18%, so a person earning $50,000 is paying $9,000 a year (on average) for healthcare--thats a helluva lot money. And here you thought it was only 1.5 percent--consider yourself educated.

$9,000 a year? Check your math... that would only be correct if they are making $50,000 a year while paying 100% in taxes, since it's only 18% of the taxes that go to health care (according to the numbers used here)

 

[Meirionnydd]

Math is not your strong suit, is it? 15% of $50,000 is $7,500 unless mathematics has changed in the last couple of days. But your actual healthcare costs are 18%, so a person earning $50,000 is paying $9,000 a year (on average) for healthcare--thats a helluva lot money. And here you thought it was only 1.5 percent--consider yourself educated.

Alright, I'll show where you are wrong. In Australia, a person earning 30,000-70,000 is taxed 30%. 15% of GROSS INCOME is 7,500. So yes you are correct in that. But $7,500 would equate to 50% of taxed income. NOT 15%. The number would be around $2253.75.

Where in the world do you get that The US spends spends 2 trillion on healthcare? That's absurd--our total tax revenues for 2007 were about 2.5 trillion. We spend a little over 20% on Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid

United States federal budget, 2007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/proj2007.pdf Read the 3rd paragraph

That's EXACTLY the point--we HAVE A CHOICE. Most people in the US spend 3 times as much on entertainment as it would cost for a healthcare plan-they choose to spend their money on something else. Many, many, many people CHOOSE not to have a healthcare plan because its cheaper to pay as you need it. Those that can't afford it (truly can't afford it as oppossed to a life style choice) have it provided for free. Conversely, in your socialized country, people aren't given a choice--they are focrced to fork over a large sum of money for healthcare and social security and welfare. Tell me how much money you'd have for retirement if you could put 60% of your pay away every year?

Ever heard of Superannuation?

 

[All Else Failed]

Yes, that's why I qualified it with "liberal fiscal policies." Other ideologies make much more sense--the farther you get a liberal away from economics, the better they can support their ideologies. The problem with many liberal fiscal policies are that they are based on emotional desire/social equality, etc., but are doomed to failure because economics doesn't bow to liberal ignorance--the laws of economics cannot be manipulated any more than can the laws of physics.

Other ideologies? You mean the ones who pander to the military industrial complex to fuel needless weapons technologies so we can have a promise that future wars occur?

Actually, some of the best economies were under democrats, historically.

 

[golfbunny]

Talk about the topic, not the members. -_-

 

[Fox Mulder]

$9,000 a year? Check your math... that would only be correct if they are making $50,000 a year while paying 100% in taxes, since it's only 18% of the taxes that go to health care (according to the numbers used here)

Yes, you are correct Tim.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Alright, I'll show where you are wrong. In Australia, a person earning 30,000-70,000 is taxed 30%. 15% of GROSS INCOME is 7,500. So yes you are correct in that. But $7,500 would equate to 50% of taxed income. NOT 15%. The number would be around $2253.75.

Yes--that's correct--it would depend on the tax rate. 30% x 50,000 x .18 = $2,700 a year applicable to healthcare on average, but $9,000 applicable to healthcare and social security (30% x 50,000 x 60%)

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/Downloads/proj2007.pdf Read the 3rd paragraph


Ever heard of Superannuation?

I don't know where that information comes from but I can assure you the US is not spending anywhere close to 2.7 trillion per year on healthcare--that's more or about the same as our total expenditures. Go to the Goverment Accounting Office or the Link I gave obtains its data from that source.

But--my point in all this is ITS NOT FREE. You are either going to choose to pay for it through work or a personal policy or you are going to pay for it your taxes. I believe that people should be given a choice.

Now--I don't have a problem with healthcare reform or national healthcare insurance (as oppossed to the government running the healthcare industry). The government can't do anything efficiently.

 

[Minor Axis]

Peter, you need to understand that in the last 10-20 years the conservatives in this country has distorted the term Liberal into a negative term. There is nothing wrong with being liberal or having liberal views, it's just the negative connotation that the right wing has put on it.

Just like conservatives are trying to distort the word secular into a bad word. Conservatives are trying to imply if your secular, then you're god-less. Until recently this country has always been proud to be a secular country which basically means we keep government and religion separate. How do they do that? One example is calling judges who make unpopular right-wing rulings as "secular judges". For your reading pleasure (link).

Why are conservatives conservative? (broad generalizations)
1. They are anti-labor if labor does anything more than grovel for their wages.
2. They are anti- social programs because they don't support "slackers". (their view)
3. They are completely pro-business from the owners perspective and anything that cuts into profits is bad- employee wages, benefits, environmental regulations, taxes.
4. They are regressive, not progressive- no labor laws have ever been passed by conservative forces. Women's vote was facilitated by liberals.
5. They believe if you work hard, you'll always be rewarded.
6. Some large percentage of conservatives, believe that Christianity should be right in the middle of government. Be very scared of this. (Are there any godless conservatives out there I wonder? )

If you care about liberty and your freedoms, you'll fight hard to keep your government secular.

 

[LiberalVichy]

If you REALLY cared you'd take a few economics classes to realize how much dumb liberal fiscal policies actually hurt the poor not help them.

Classically speaking, that's a liberal opinion. But the word's been distorted to all Hell anymore.
The effects of welfare and rent control, as horrible and invasive as they are, are not nearly as destructive as all the wars and drug-crime concentration camps. At least the people getting welfare money are relatively innocent, unlike the police and military-industrial complex.
Not that I'm saying you support these things. But generally people support either the welfare or the warfare state. I hate both of them.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Some large percentage of conservatives, believe that Christianity should be right in the middle of government. Be very scared of this. (Are there any godless conservatives out there I wonder? )

If you care about liberty and your freedoms, you'll fight hard to keep your government secular.

I hate to tell you this, but half of my Christian friends, who I know you would call conservative ... are ... guess what ... no ... nooooooo ... wait for it .....















































DEMOCRATS!!!!

You really should try to stop trying to label folks. Everyone does not fit into nice little boxes.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Spelled it wrong--fixed it for ya!

DEMONCRATS!!!!

 

[LiberalVichy]

The difference between democrats and republicans is that democrats think they should get your money, and republicans think republicans should get your money. The mass support base are a bunch of ignorant, mideavil-minded and intolerant primates created by massive state propoganda throughout their entire lives from almost every possible 'educational', media and cultural source (including their own parents). The reason you can't convince these people is because it's not a matter of fact, it's a matter of faith and the conspicuous economic and social advantages of conformity. Nonsense like 'left' and 'right' is just thrown in there to distract people from the real dichotomy of Good and Evil.

 

[Minor Axis]

You really should try to stop trying to label folks. Everyone does not fit into nice little boxes.

I've labeled no one. I'm just observing that most of the people who want religion in the middle of government tend to be religious conservatives with a very fixed view of how the world should be. Is this because they want to promote choice and tolerance, or to lock the government into a certain way of thinking? If you believe in a secular government, for example, the Ten Commandments no matter how much sense you think they represent have no place on the Court House lawn.

Now you can tell me how wrong I am.

 

[Minor Axis]

The difference between democrats and republicans is that democrats think they should get your money, and republicans think republicans should get your money. The mass support base are a bunch of ignorant, mideavil-minded and intolerant primates created by massive state propoganda throughout their entire lives from almost every possible 'educational', media and cultural source (including their own parents). The reason you can't convince these people is because it's not a matter of fact, it's a matter of faith and the conspicuous economic and social advantages of conformity. Nonsense like 'left' and 'right' is just thrown in there to distract people from the real dichotomy of Good and Evil.

Actually the usual complaint is that Democrats want to give your tax money to the poor folk, and Republicans don't want to give their tax money to anyone. The other description is Democrats have too much heart, Republicans have too much head and not enough heart.

Most of your arguments sound like you think most humans are evil and if you don't support anarchy, at least you feel like the human race is anarchist by nature. These days it's very easy to become a cynic. I sincerely hope that as the centuries role by, if we don't poison or blow ourselves up, the human race will strive for a higher standard and society will evolve into a structure whose primary goal is to provide mutual support to each other instead of stabbing each other in the back.

 

[LiberalVichy]

Most people are corrupt and ignorant. Moral knowledge is necessary for evil. Most people don't know any better, and I do not blame them. Their brains are a bit different and they are, as I pointed out, saturated in lies and castigated (if not brutalized) for non-conformity to the politicized view of life. It is the politicians and intellectuals, who know better and still preach the dogma of death, that are evil.

 

[groundpounder]

Less Filling!!

Tastes Great!!!

 

[groundpounder]

Just like conservatives are trying to distort the word secular into a bad word. Conservatives are trying to imply if your secular, then you're god-less. Until recently this country has always been proud to be a secular country which basically means we keep government and religion separate. How do they do that? One example is calling judges who make unpopular right-wing rulings as "secular judges". For your reading pleasure (link).

Why are conservatives conservative? (broad generalizations)
1. They are anti-labor if labor does anything more than grovel for their wages.
2. They are anti- social programs because they don't support "slackers". (their view)
3. They are completely pro-business from the owners perspective and anything that cuts into profits is bad- employee wages, benefits, environmental regulations, taxes.
4. They are regressive, not progressive- no labor laws have ever been passed by conservative forces. Women's vote was facilitated by liberals.
5. They believe if you work hard, you'll always be rewarded.
6. Some large percentage of conservatives, believe that Christianity should be right in the middle of government. Be very scared of this. (Are there any godless conservatives out there I wonder? )

If you care about liberty and your freedoms, you'll fight hard to keep your government secular.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
not the musings of an "independent moderate" :smiley24:

 

[LiberalVichy]

I am no moderate at all, but what is so disparagingly called an 'extremist'. I do not believe in moderation in morality or truth. In any compromise between good and evil, only evil can benefit. I find moderates are often the worst; not to pick on the individual people are simply sick of 'left and right' but rather the politicians who portray themselves that way; they're
converging together because all either of them want is the power to control and rob you.

 

[Minor Axis]

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
not the musings of an "independent moderate" :smiley24:

Because I've chosen to point out a group's short comings? I don't begrudge you an opinion though.

 

[groundpounder]

Because I've chosen to point out a group's short comings?

not at all, just the manner in which you do it. consistently

I don't begrudge you an opinion though.

Not an opinion, an observation. I happen to agree with some of your opinions

 

[Minor Axis]

not at all, just the manner in which you do it. consistently
Not an opinion, an observation. I happen to agree with some of your opinions

I've felt threatened (not personally) for a while regarding where I see the country (U.S.) headed. IMO the Republican party currently deserves the critiques. If and when the system regains balance, I'll ease off.

Basically I'm in to open mindedness, (because we all don't think the same) and demanding a system designed to be fair across the spectrum. I'm not into endless hand outs, but there are circumstances where people need help. I'm against corporate greed because owners don't need to be rich at the expense of their workers who actually make the company function. Just because you (not referring to you GP) are powerful, gives you no right to take advantage of the situation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pensions, but if we have them, then it should not be just a select few. And people have the right to choose their religious beliefs, not be locked into a particular way of thinking, as long as they can live within the bounds of society at large.

This country was founded on the idea of tolerance, which I support.