What if God died?

[COOL_BREEZE2]

I'm looking forward to Grace's input. If our relationship with God boils down to love me or burn what kind of a relationship is that, really? I'd much prefer forgiveness for the error of our bad decisions or even our questions about God. You know some of us just don't have adequate info to make the leap.

I bet she will remind you there's forgiveness too.
Rep bet. Double or nothing.

Wait and see what she says.

 

[GraceAbounds]

I have some bad news.
You'll never be able to convince the OTz devils.

I know you are having just a bit of fun, but on a serious note - I am not trying to convince anyone. No human can convince another to come to faith. It is a gift. And I can only speak of my experience and share what I know from my walk thus far.

Some laugh at my faith in God, others envy it ... I just share my life and hopefully it helps someone. If my sharing plants seeds, wonderful. But only God knows what is going to grow and what isn't in a human being's heart. If faith grows, it is to His credit, not mine.

But the Christian view is that if you don't acknowledge him, you burn in hell for eternity. Sounds coercive to me... What's your take?

I knew of God and didn't acknowledge Him for many years. And when I did come to acknowledge Him it was not because I was afraid of burning in hell. You will never grow to love someone out of fear.

Technically, if you do not choose him as your personal savior then you burn in hell for eternity. You can acknowledge his existence, and yet still refuse... although that would be an interesting lifestyle, indeed. :unsure:

It is a most miserable existence indeed; I know, I've lived it. I'd rather be a complete atheist, blind to God and His ways than to know He is there and ignore Him.

But the point was raised, and despite any underlying insinuations, I am glad that Grace takes time to help us sinners realize new things about her beliefs. :thumbup

Us sinners, eh? I hope you are not insinuating that I am not in that group as well.

Part of my love for God is not being too arrogant to admit that I am a sinner and that I can't stop sinning no matter how hard I try. Being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, oh sure I stop doing something on the outside that everyone might see, but those are the easy things to stop doing. It is the inward sins that are the worst; the ones that no one can see. My soul/spirit struggles against my flesh. But graciously it's those inward thoughts that humble me and make me be less critical and more forgiving of other people.

I still think this place needs an exorcism.

LOL! I'd have to agree with that. :24:

I'm looking forward to Grace's input. If our relationship with God boils down to love me or burn what kind of a relationship is that, really? I'd much prefer forgiveness for the error of our bad decisions or even our questions about God. You know some of us just don't have adequate info to make the leap.

One will never have adequate info to make the leap. If we had enough adequate info, a leap would not be necessary.

It is kind of like when a parent gives us rules and teaches us rights and wrongs. Our parents are of course right and know best. And if we would just mind them, our young adult lives would start off with much less turmoil. But we have to be prideful and arrogant and think our parents are stupid and so we don't believe them and we believe our way is better much to our dismay. Then 10 years down the road in hindsight we think ... 'oh, only if I had listened'.

This is how it is with God. We obey first and then understand; instead of understanding and then obeying.

I bet she will remind you there's forgiveness too.
Rep bet. Double or nothing.

Wait and see what she says.

Nope. Not going to remind anyone of forgiveness. You already did.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

Bravo Grace. You done well.

I still wish you had reminded him though.

You made me lose my bet.
Will you reconsider if I say please?

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

BTW, he's going to come back and muli-quote you.

Just a hunch.

:humm: Then again maybe he might chicken out.

 

[GraceAbounds]

You made me lose my bet.

Doesn't matter, I rep'd you to make up for it.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

I'm looking forward to Grace's input. If our relationship with God boils down to love me or burn what kind of a relationship is that, really? I'd much prefer forgiveness for the error of our bad decisions or even our questions about God. You know some of us just don't have adequate info to make the leap.

edit: If our relationship boils down to acknowledge me or burn what kind of relationship is that, really?

edit II: If our relationship boils down to if you can't figure out I'm real, then burn what kind of relationship is that, really?

Too late to edit Mr Axis. Don't try that. Too sneaky.

Doesn't matter, I rep'd you to make up for it.

Ok, we cool Gracie.

 

[ssl]

I know you are having just a bit of fun, but on a serious note - I am not trying to convince anyone. No human can convince another to come to faith. It is a gift. And I can only speak of my experience and share what I know from my walk thus far.

Some laugh at my faith in God, others envy it ... I just share my life and hopefully it helps someone. If my sharing plants seeds, wonderful. But only God knows what is going to grow and what isn't in a human being's heart. If faith grows, it is to His credit, not mine.


I knew of God and didn't acknowledge Him for many years. And when I did come to acknowledge Him it was not because I was afraid of burning in hell. You will never grow to love someone out of fear.


It is a most miserable existence indeed; I know, I've lived it. I'd rather be a complete atheist, blind to God and His ways than to know He is there and ignore Him.

Us sinners, eh? I hope you are not insinuating that I am not in that group as well.

Part of my love for God is not being too arrogant to admit that I am a sinner and that I can't stop sinning no matter how hard I try. Being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, oh sure I stop doing something on the outside that everyone might see, but those are the easy things to stop doing. It is the inward sins that are the worst; the ones that no one can see. My soul/spirit struggles against my flesh. But graciously it's those inward thoughts that humble me and make me be less critical and more forgiving of other people.


LOL! I'd have to agree with that. :24:


One will never have adequate info to make the leap. If we had enough adequate info, a leap would not be necessary.

It is kind of like when a parent gives us rules and teaches us rights and wrongs. Our parents are of course right and know best. And if we would just mind them, our young adult lives would start off with much less turmoil. But we have to be prideful and arrogant and think our parents are stupid and so we don't believe them and we believe our way is better much to our dismay. Then 10 years down the road in hindsight we think ... 'oh, only if I had listened'.

This is how it is with God. We obey first and then understand; instead of understanding and then obeying.


Nope. Not going to remind anyone of forgiveness. You already did.

Sort of like the military: Shoot first, ask questions later. :ninja

And no, Grace, I insinuate not! I am appalled at your insinuation!

Seriously, though; I would like to return to the bold portion.

If we were to follow God's rules and do what he says, what is the point of trying to understand in the first place? Understanding is not a requirement of cooperation, forced if necessary.

For instance, the military order's its troops on missions; some question it, and are reprimanded. Others just do as they are told, either not caring, or are smart enough not to ask questions. If you ask questions, you get labeled as a trouble-maker or something like inquisitive-annoyance. You are told to comply or leave.

Which sounds a lot like believe or burn.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Sort of like the military: Shoot first, ask questions later. :ninja

ROFL, yeah you better put that ninja smiley in there. :24:
Yeah, so yeah ... no - nothing like the military. :cool

And no, Grace, I insinuate not! I am appalled at your insinuation!

I'm sure. LOL!

Seriously, though; I would like to return to the bold portion.

If we were to follow God's rules and do what he says, what is the point of trying to understand in the first place? Understanding is not a requirement of cooperation, forced if necessary.

Trying to understand? I don't know if I am following you about that. Trying to understand what?

I gave this example as a way to understand:

It is kind of like when a parent gives us rules and teaches us rights and wrongs. Our parents are of course right and know best. And if we would just mind them, our young adult lives would start off with much less turmoil. But we have to be prideful and arrogant and think our parents are stupid and so we don't believe them and we believe our way is better much to our dismay. Then 10 years down the road in hindsight we think ... 'oh, only if I had listened'.

The point of trying to understand comes out of a desire to want to please God and to be like Him. Also the Holy Spirit makes things clear, which has a lot to do with verses in the Bible regarding being blind ... but now I see. Haven't you ever experienced something like that? For years and years a certain thing in life didn't make sense, you thought it stupid and then you have an experience or an epiphany and you see that it was not stupid, in fact, quite the contrary and you wonder why you had not seen it sooner?

For instance, the military order's its troops on missions; some question it, and are reprimanded. Others just do as they are told, either not caring, or are smart enough not to ask questions. If you ask questions, you get labeled as a trouble-maker or something like inquisitive-annoyance. You are told to comply or leave.

No, no ... not the same thing.

Which sounds a lot like believe or burn.

Hey, all I can say is that that type of mentality would never had made me believe in the Lord.

 

[ssl]

Trying to understand? I don't know if I am following you about that. Trying to understand what?

I gave this example as a way to understand:

It is kind of like when a parent gives us rules and teaches us rights and wrongs. Our parents are of course right and know best. And if we would just mind them, our young adult lives would start off with much less turmoil. But we have to be prideful and arrogant and think our parents are stupid and so we don't believe them and we believe our way is better much to our dismay. Then 10 years down the road in hindsight we think ... 'oh, only if I had listened'.

The point of trying to understand comes out of a desire to want to please God and to be like Him. Also the Holy Spirit makes things clear, which has a lot to do with verses in the Bible regarding being blind ... but now I see. Haven't you ever experienced something like that? For years and years a certain thing in life didn't make sense, you thought it stupid and then you have an experience or an epiphany and you see that it was not stupid, in fact, quite the contrary and you wonder why you had not seen it sooner?

Trying to understand why God instructs us to do certain things, certain ways; by expecting full obedience, we are expected to not question motives or authority.

Now, I am a fence sitter on the parents teaching thing, only because I was brought up in a Christian home; however, I deviated by choice. That is not to say some of the things I was taught as a youngin are not with me today. My overall morality stems from those days as a child, as most do. However, my issue begins with the teaching of right and wrong; my issue is what the definition of right and wrong are, and namely, being brought up in the ways of the Christian, I find myself disheartened to learn that I was taught that what God says is right, and any deviations from this were wrongdoings. While some of the tidbits were common to society, and therefore posed no issue, some created a disposition that was most displeasing to me, and subsequently, my mother (being single and having to deal with two defections of faith -- me and my brother -- were not easy on her). My sister stayed the faith and makes my mom proud, although me and my brother's accomplishments add to that sense of good upbringing she has done.

However (#3 on my count of using the word), my qualm is that a majority of the concepts of what is right and wrong are attributed or taught from a system of beliefs. My view is that is biased and not opened minded at all. My view could be construed as biased as well, so keep that in mind.

 

[Minor Axis]

Trying to understand why God instructs us to do certain things, certain ways; by expecting full obedience, we are expected to not question motives or authority.

As I see it, that's the major problem with the Christian view of the proper relationship with God. It's just not equitable or healthy. BTW, the only reason I can comment on Christianity is because that's how I was raised. I'd love to examine any other religion if I was knowledgeable enough to do so.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Trying to understand why God instructs us to do certain things, certain ways; by expecting full obedience, we are expected to not question motives or authority.

I understand what you are saying now. But it is not that we are not expected or allowed to not question or wonder. In fact it is in questioning or wondering that we grow. So yes, question and wonder, but don't let that stop you from being obedient. Well, I probably shouldn't say that because even when we try to be obedient, we aren't or we aren't fully. I mean regardless we are still sinners no matter how we try, yes? But we should not get so caught up in obedience that we miss God's message to us as the Pharisees and Sadducees did.

my issue begins with the teaching of right and wrong; my issue is what the definition of right and wrong are, and namely, being brought up in the ways of the Christian, I find myself disheartened to learn that I was taught that what God says is right, and any deviations from this were wrongdoings.

However (#3 on my count of using the word), my qualm is that a majority of the concepts of what is right and wrong are attributed or taught from a system of beliefs. My view is that is biased and not opened minded at all. My view could be construed as biased as well, so keep that in mind.

Personally I have no problem with God defining what is right and wrong. I find it to make much more sense than the alternative. In this world, right and wrong is constantly changing from person to person. But with God right and wrong does not change. His Word does not change. Yes, times change, cultures change, but God doesn't. This keeps the foundation I stand on firm.

Granted, I and no one else can live according to His divine plan on this earth but like I said we are not to get so distracted by our checklist on how to act that we miss God's true message of salvation. It comes naturally that the more we love God and understand His love for us, the more we want to be obedient out of love ... only to our surprise to find out we get blessed for it.

 

[Minor Axis]

Personally I have no problem with God defining what is right and wrong. I find it to make much more sense than the alternative. In this world, right and wrong is constantly changing from person to person. But with God right and wrong does not change. His Word does not change. Yes, times change, cultures change, but God doesn't. This keeps the foundation I stand on firm.

You need to have a little more self respect as you have a brain and the ability to analyze for yourself if something is right or wrong. You sound like a mindless "yes" woman when it comes to God.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

You need to have a little more self respect as you have a brain and the ability to analyze for yourself if something is right or wrong. You sound like a mindless "yes" man when it comes to God.

Wrong on both counts.

1. Grace has self respect. and

2. She's not a man.

 

[Minor Axis]

Wrong on both counts.

1. Grace has self respect. and

2. She's not a man.

1. Having self respect means you don't blindly follow IMO.

2. I'll fix number 2.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

1. Having self respect means you don't blindly follow IMO.

2. I'll fix number 2.

Wrong again.

self respect
1 : a proper respect for oneself as a human being
2 : regard for one's own standing or position

self-respect
Due respect for oneself, one's character, and one's conduct.


Ipso facto, Grace has loads of self respect.

 

[Minor Axis]

Wrong again.

self respect
1 : a proper respect for oneself as a human being
2 : regard for one's own standing or position

self-respect
Due respect for oneself, one's character, and one's conduct.

I really need to try to separate the relationship with God from relationship with other humans. I'm sure Grace has lots of self respect in her relationships with other people. I just find it ironic that when it comes to God, self respect just flies out the window because religous people don't dare disagree with God...

In regards to a relationship, if you blindly follow, your self respect is low, because your saying you have no ability to evaluate whether something is right/wrong, correct/incorrect, in other words you don't trust your own judgement so your regard for your own position has to be low too. And isn't that what the traditional relationship to God is all about? Your own standing/position is nothing in the presence of God.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

In regards to a relationship, if you blindly follow, your self respect is low, because your saying you have no ability to evaluate whether something is right/wrong, correct/incorrect, in other words you don't trust your own judgement so your regard for your own position has to be low too. And isn't that what the traditional relationship to God is all about? Your own standing/position is nothing in the presence of God.

Jump high, jump low, it still remains, your definition of self respect was wrong.

 

[Minor Axis]

Jump high, jump low, it still remains, your definition of self respect was wrong.

See my edited post... what you still disagree? Ok, maybe we can agree to disagree.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

See my edited post... what you still disagree? Ok, maybe we can agree to disagree.

LOL. I saw you editing the post after I posted. Sonofagun.

Yes, there is a distinction between "normal" relationships and with God (or whatever name), however self respect has everything to do with having respect for yourself....hence: self respect.

And yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Minor Axis]

LOL. I saw you editing the post after I posted. Sonofagun.

Yes, there is a distinction between "normal" relationships and with God (or whatever name), however self respect has everything to do with having respect for yourself....hence: self respect.

And yes, we can agree to disagree.

Allow me to clarify a bit more:
If someone says, "I understand and accept God's rules", that in itself does not indicate a lack of self respect. However, if someone makes a blanket statement, something to the effect of whatever "God says is right" I tend to view that as mindless acceptance and a lack of self respect, in that you don't respect yourself enough to evaluate and judge a standard even if it is God's standard. But to be fair, that might not mean a lack of self respect, it might just mean poor judgement.