What are your thoughts on torture?

[Valde Bovis]

Bush did not authorize torture, he authorized enhanced techniques for interrogation

Sounds like a nice way of saying "torture" to me.

What are "enhanced techniques for interrogation"?

These are the 6 in question:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.
2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.
3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.
4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.
5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.
6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

 

[cam elle toe]

These are the 6 in question:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.
2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.
3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.
4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.
5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.
6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

Yep, so just a nicer way of saying torture

 

[Alien Allen]

Well with some of the bastards we captured they should get a bit more than the norm. This is made to look like it is being done across the board.

Again I ask what you would do if you had a loved one that was kidnapped and you had one of the perps. If you can tell me you would let your child suffer the consequences of not using all available tools available then you have a stance that is consistent.

But I think most if not all would do whatever they could within reason. For some reason we think saving hundreds or thousands is not the same as saving one of our own.

 

[Valde Bovis]

Yep, so just a nicer way of saying torture

Yep- seems everyone has an opinion on it.

The country is divided over it, and very emotional as well. Here's where it really rubs me- If we have people detained who we suspect have information that will stop an attack and we only aks them politely if they would like to tell us what they know and they decide they dont want to tell us- and we are attacked then the people chraged with securing us get blamed for not stopping the attack.

If we actually do stop an attack using these enhanced interrogation methods and we prevent an attack then the radical left starts a campagin to expose the people charged with securing us with crimes agaisnt humanity.

If Im one who is charged with securing our country- then I'm going to do my full job, using all the tools I have at my disposal to prevent an attack. If I have to slap, shake and near drown a terrorist who knows infomration that could stop an attack- I am going to slap, shake and dump as much water as is necessary to control him till he starts talking the truth. If that means Im later brought up on charges for doing my job, then so be it- At least I will have saved innocent people form a hanious murder.

I'd rather have a little slap and shake and near drowning on my conscince than the death of innocent americans.

 

[cam elle toe]

Yep- seems everyone has an opinion on it.

The country is divided over it, and very emotional as well. Here's where it really rubs me- If we have people detained who we suspect have information that will stop an attack and we only aks them politely if they would like to tell us what they know and they decide they dont want to tell us- and we are attacked then the people chraged with securing us get blamed for not stopping the attack.

If we actually do stop an attack using these enhanced interrogation methods and we prevent an attack then the radical left starts a campagin to expose the people charged with securing us with crimes agaisnt humanity.

If Im one who is charged with securing our country- then I'm going to do my full job, using all the tools I have at my disposal to prevent an attack. If I have to slap, shake and near drown a terrorist who knows infomration that could stop an attack- I am going to slap, shake and dump as much water as is necessary to control him till he starts talking the truth. If that means Im later brought up on charges for doing my job, then so be it- At least I will have saved innocent people form a hanious murder.

I'd rather have a little slap and shake and near drowning on my conscince than the death of innocent americans.

Key word is "suspect". What if you use all these "interrogation methods" and they actually DONT know anything...or just confess to stop the pain. How do you KNOW that he's telling the truth, or just saying what he knows you want to hear

What if he gives false info to stop the pain? Too many variables IMO. Nothing will convince me it is EVER justified

Its like slapping your kid BEFORE they do something wrong

 

[CoralRose]

Yep, so just a nicer way of saying torture

I'd disagree. It's not how I'd want to spend my weekend but these don't fall under my definition of torture.

 

[cam elle toe]

I'd disagree. It's not how I'd want to spend my weekend but these don't fall under my definition of torture.

I would say causing prolonged discomfort and pain of any sort is torture, but hey, each to his own.

 

[Accountable]

I spose we could torture them by having a 6-year-old ask "Will you tell me now?"


"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"Please?"

"Huh?"

"How about now?"

"Will you tell me now?"

"Now?"

"Please?"

 

[cam elle toe]

That would make me answer:24:

 

[Valde Bovis]

I would say causing prolonged discomfort and pain of any sort is torture, but hey, each to his own.

Define 'prolonged'.

Rhetorical question, sorry I'm being cantankerous on purpose to make a point, and that is no matter what method is used to extract information it will be upsetting to some folks.

This gets complicated and I hope I can throw out here what I mean and nut shell it so I dont go off topic too far.

What we have here is not unique to the world/history, its been played out over and over again and if we learn form the true history and not revise it to fit our own predjudices we can make wise decisions, or at least settle on the only course of action that brings results to our (america's) benifit.

Our enemy: Muslum fanatics are a pseudo religous philosophy dating back to 600's, the philosophy was born out of waring tribes by a man who needed to control the hearts and minds of people in order to garner enough support to fight for him. muhammad developed this philosophy alone, it is not a real religion, its a criminal thug philosophy that allows people to control others and take what they want from others... yes its that simple.

Our problem: These thug fanatics wish to over throw by force any and all people who refuse to submit to thier control and thats us (the US, and any freedom loving people who wish to have thier own thoughts rather than have it crammed down your throats that Cleric XXX is the man to tell you what to do.

Ive seen whats left of people; raped to death (both male and female), beaten to death, hung, beheaded, tied between two vehicles and pulled apart, burned with amber hot iron, finger cutt off one by one, executed with firearms- even children.

I hear folks ask do we let the end justfies the means? And generally I say no- we dont do what we do in interrogation methods for retribution: my god if we did it for retribution then why just waterboard them or slap them around a bit or put them in a tough position for a few hours?- Heck I'd like to skin some alive for the henious ways they treat people, but what I'd like to do in the moment I come across some evil way someone was torutred to death and what I actually do when I capture them is two different things, yes emotions run high, but I still have to live with my conscience following my emotional run. Duty before my selfish ways.

I very sickened by the way the liberals in this country treat the very people that protect them. If it dod not affect so many innocent people I'd be inclined to let just th eliberals get a tatse of what its like to live unprotected, maybe they would get a dose of revisionst history.

Cam, this in no way is directed to you in particular.

 

[robdawg1]

I think that if the US is fighting this war on the basis of "being in the moral right" and defeatng the "evil doers" than we have to act in the moral right.
Torturing for information is wrong and against the geneva convention, For us to commit that act is wrong...iT CAN'T MATTER what they have done to us or others. And you can't in good concience ship them to an off shore base so that you can try to loophole your way out of commiting such acts//

WE ARE NOT THAT KIND OF COUNTRY!!

We have common sense, and human decency and we do not treat people inhumanely.. how do we stand up to countries like China and Darfur for violating human rights and then do the same thing our selves!!!

I have more to say on this but i am running out of time before my lunch break!

 

[Valde Bovis]

I think that if the US is fighting this war on the basis of "being in the moral right" and defeatng the "evil doers" than we have to act in the moral right.
Torturing for information is wrong and against the geneva convention, For us to commit that act is wrong...iT CAN'T MATTER what they have done to us or others. And you can't in good concience ship them to an off shore base so that you can try to loophole your way out of commiting such acts//

WE ARE NOT THAT KIND OF COUNTRY!!

We have common sense, and human decency and we do not treat people inhumanely.. how do we stand up to countries like China and Darfur for violating human rights and then do the same thing our selves!!!

I have more to say on this but i am running out of time before my lunch break!

I think the argument to this point isnt to disagree with your above statement its in what constitutes torture.

In fact I dont disagree with anything you've said, and I dont think the US has engaged in any act under which you stated.

I wasn't 'loopholing, a secret base as a way to hide what we do, the purpose of using GITMO for instance is to keep these dangerous detainees off US soil for security reasons, to prevent civilian deaths should an attack be mounted in order to either kill the detainees to prevent them from talking or to merely use it as a point of attack in thier ongoing agenda of terrorism.

 

[robdawg1]

I think the argument to this point isnt to disagree with your above statement its in what constitutes torture.

ok well as far as water boarding is concerned it was used during the Italian Inquisition and by Khmer Rouge in cambodian prisons and by the cia as early as 2005... when your poor water over a persons face while it is covered by a cloth or cellophane to make them feel the sensation of drowning and take away there ability to breathe for a short period of time that is torture, everyone else clasifies it that way except for Bush and his administration!!

and Torture ,as defined by Meriam Webster, means to cause extreme anguish of body and mind. that would put waterboarding into that category!

Torture is useless in it's effect on an interrogation because it is proven that the prisoner would be more likely to tell the detainers what they want to know as opposed to the truth...

and about gitmo keeping them off US soil to prevent an attack that is bogus there are plenty of locations that are high security in the United States that could house these inmates in secret where they would then be subj to human rights protection afforded to them by the government of the United States and the UN and the Geneva Convention!!

 

[Alien Allen]

ok well as far as water boarding is concerned it was used during the Italian Inquisition and by Khmer Rouge in cambodian prisons and by the cia as early as 2005... when your poor water over a persons face while it is covered by a cloth or cellophane to make them feel the sensation of drowning and take away there ability to breathe for a short period of time that is torture, everyone else clasifies it that way except for Bush and his administration!!

Those legal memos are well written. Clearly if down as indicated in those memos waterboarding is not torture. If it was then the ACLU would be in court to stop it being done to our own servicemen.

and Torture ,as defined by Meriam Webster, means to cause extreme anguish of body and mind. that would put waterboarding into that category!

Waterboarding does not fit the description of extreame if done properly.

Torture is useless in it's effect on an interrogation because it is proven that the prisoner would be more likely to tell the detainers what they want to know as opposed to the truth...

That is the standard talking point. Which is being treated as an absolute. There is plenty of evidence where it does provide information.

and about gitmo keeping them off US soil to prevent an attack that is bogus there are plenty of locations that are high security in the United States that could house these inmates in secret where they would then be subj to human rights protection afforded to them by the government of the United States and the UN and the Geneva Convention!!

Gitmo is still preferable. The farther the distance the better. It is an iscolated location. The only place that would be better would be if they reactivated Acatraz and even that would be close enough to raise concerns about colateral damage in the event of an attack on the base.

 

[Valde Bovis]

=robdawg1;1099605]ok well as far as water boarding is concerned it was used during the Italian Inquisition and by Khmer Rouge in cambodian prisons and by the cia as early as 2005... when your poor water over a persons face while it is covered by a cloth or cellophane to make them feel the sensation of drowning and take away there ability to breathe for a short period of time that is torture, everyone else clasifies it that way except for Bush and his administration!!

and Torture ,as defined by Meriam Webster, means to cause extreme anguish of body and mind. that would put waterboarding into that category!

I dont classify waterboarding as torture either- so add 1 Bull to that Bush and his administration group- Im sure there are more of us out here as well.

I doubt I'd go to a man named 'Meriam' for a tough definition on anything.

Torture is useless in it's effect on an interrogation because it is proven that the prisoner would be more likely to tell the detainers what they want to know as opposed to the truth...

We're not talking about torture, we're talkign abotu nehanced interrogation methods.

and about gitmo keeping them off US soil to prevent an attack that is bogus there are plenty of locations that are high security in the United States that could house these inmates in secret where they would then be subj to human rights protection afforded to them by the government of the United States and the UN and the Geneva Convention!!

Never the less, housing these detainees in another place other than on US soil is a security measure, it also limits the ability of US citizens to protest on behalf of these detainees, can you imagine the news media locating them, then leaking the information to the anti-war protestors so they could cover the story? Talk about a breech of secret locations- or can you imagine the vigilante citizen taking matters into thier own hand and attcaking the compound they are kept at to hang the detainees themselves?

There are many possiblities.

 

[Valde Bovis]

Those legal memos are well written. Clearly if down as indicated in those memos waterboarding is not torture. If it was then the ACLU would be in court to stop it being done to our own servicemen.

Waterboarding does not fit the description of extreame if done properly.

That is the standard talking point. Which is being treated as an absolute. There is plenty of evidence where it does provide information.

Gitmo is still preferable. The farther the distance the better. It is an iscolated location. The only place that would be better would be if they reactivated Acatraz and even that would be close enough to raise concerns about colateral damage in the event of an attack on the base.

Now thats an interesting concept- Alcatraz, hmmmm. That would certainly be an obtainable target by vigilantes, they could then hang them from the Golden Gate. I guess GITMO doesnt look so bad does it?

 

[Minor Axis]

Some of you are just too worried about the Republican Party will have a black eye over this torture issue so lots of effort is being exerted to get them off the hook. :smiley24: It's not gonna happen. BTW, nobody is happy that Obama went with his military advisers and decided to withhold the prisoner abuse pics?

 

[Minor Axis]

I dont classify waterboarding as torture either- so add 1 Bull to that Bush and his administration group- Im sure there are more of us out here as well.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you give a hoot about long established laws, it is torture. And it's rationalization to think otherwise. Yes, I know, it was "gentle" water boarding with lots of oversight. If you want to believe that. :smiley24: It really makes me sad how quick some of you are willing to jump off a moral cliff in the name of politics and suedo-security.

 

[Valde Bovis]

Some of you are just too worried about the Republican Party will have a black eye over this torture issue so lots of effort is being exerted to get them off the hook. :smiley24: It's not gonna happen. BTW, nobody is happy that Obama went with his military advisers and decided to withhold the prisoner abuse pics?

I dont care one whit about any party in the whole system- I want accuracy and truth, and I want to make each decicion as it comes.

My actual campaign will be to vote out every single incumbent that I can- its time to change everyone of them whippersnappers.

Obama knows that if he pushes this issue any further he will loose the rest of his military support- folks will bail out of the military whoelsale the minute he squeezes thier nuts one more time. The guys I ran with are all putting in packets to retire as soon as they possibly can now that Obama has taken over- Senior NCO's will turn over 100% in the next 4 years.

 

[Valde Bovis]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you give a hoot about long established laws, it is torture. And it's rationalization to think otherwise. Yes, I know, it was "gentle" water boarding with lots of oversight. If you want to believe that. :smiley24: It really makes me sad how quick some of you are willing to jump off a moral cliff in the name of politics and suedo-security.

Yer nuts-

The only thing standing in the way of more terror attacks is stick it to them tactics, and holding thier nuts over the fire- the second we let up and we already have, they win.

It's not immoral, or a sell out or anything of the kind- its called fighting a war thats both necessary and critical to our survival as a nation, but its stupid to stop now, our enemeies already know we are in division and the weaker side is in power.

There is no rationlaization on my part in this issue- I am forward thinking on this, its right to do, its required to do, and any thinking in the contrary is a sell out of our country, you're talking treason and sedition- your ideology is the sellout.

You'd rather allow the murder of innocent americans than interrogate known terrorists.