Warrantless wiretapping in place before 9/11

[dt3]

Because he did that under martial law, I sort of lumped what he did under martial law together.


His situation was MUCH more dire and the consequences much more extreme than what we are facing today.

According to you, I'll find the posts if you want, our rights should never be taken away and there's no reason to ever do it.

 

[All Else Failed]

According to you, I'll find the posts if you want, our rights should never be taken away and there's no reason to ever do it.

I don't believe I ever said something to that EXTENT. I do believe that under incredible situations of duress, we could temporarily modify our rights, but what Bush is doing is completely eliminating our rights.

 

[Tim]

I haven't read everything in this thread, but here's my opinion. Obviously, I'm for it (surprise). If it was in place before Sep 11th and didn't stop it, at least at the end of the day we can say we did all we could. I'd feel a lot worse if we DIDN'T do it, and found out it would've worked.

I find it strange that you are for it... Now we are talking about WARRANTLESS wiretapping, not legal wiretapping. This is something that can be archived very easily if so desired by the administration. Now the constitution clearly states that you cannot do this, yet it's being done... now with that said, it's curious that you are for it when it clearly violates the constitution. And didn't you take an oath to uphold the constitution when you joined the military?

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm all for LEGAL wiretapping with sufficient evidence that the person they are listening in on is without a doubt a threat to other people. Without warrants, anyone can be deemed "a danger" and spied on.

 

[dt3]

I don't believe I ever said something to that EXTENT. I do believe that under incredible situations of duress, we could temporarily modify our rights, but what Bush is doing is completely eliminating our rights.

You believed accused terrorists deserve Habeas Corpus:

Yeah, except the whole Habeas corpus part. You seem to hate human rights for some reason.

I don't see a difference between what Bush and Lincoln did. I don't see how you can vilify one and accept the other.

 

[dt3]

I find it strange that you are for it... Now we are talking about WARRANTLESS wiretapping, not legal wiretapping. This is something that can be archived very easily if so desired by the administration. Now the constitution clearly states that you cannot do this, yet it's being done... now with that said, it's curious that you are for it when it clearly violates the constitution. And didn't you take an oath to uphold the constitution when you joined the military?

Yep, sure did. And it was also an oath to defend our country and our way of life. I can accept the fact that in a wartime situation, certain sacrifices must be made. I'd rather have someone listen to my phone call today than be speaking Arabic tomorrow.

 

[All Else Failed]

You believed accused terrorists deserve Habeas Corpus:



I don't see a difference between what Bush and Lincoln did. I don't see how you can vilify one and accept the other.

Why should we not give prisoners of war a trial? There's nothing wrong with that. We'd expect the same thing from other countries that have that provision in their governing laws.


The difference is situation and scale of the two men's policies. Lincoln did what he had to do from keeping an entire nation from being destroyed, and as much as some FOX news analysts want you to believe, we are totally not in a situation like Lincoln's. Bush is wantonly pissing n rights just so its easier for him to pursue his personal agenda, which I think he genuinely thinks is the right thing to do .

 

[dt3]

Why should we not give prisoners of war a trial? There's nothing wrong with that. We'd expect the same thing from other countries that have that provision in their governing laws.

But you don't believe our own citizens deserved trials in the 1860's???

The difference is situation and scale of the two men's policies. Lincoln did what he had to do from keeping an entire nation from being destroyed, and as much as some FOX news analysts want you to believe, we are totally not in a situation like Lincoln's. Bush is wantonly pissing n rights just so its easier for him to pursue his personal agenda, which I think he genuinely thinks is the right thing to do .

First off, if you think our nation isn't under a serious threat right now, you're sadly mistaken. I don't need Fox news to see that.

And, since you're so fond of making people prove their statements, show me ONE, SINGLE shred of evidence that Bush has spied on somebody to advance ANY sort of agenda of his. Please, go ahead.

 

[All Else Failed]

But you don't believe our own citizens deserved trials in the 1860's???



First off, if you think our nation isn't under a serious threat right now, you're sadly mistaken. I don't need Fox news to see that.

And, since you're so fond of making people prove their statements, show me ONE, SINGLE shred of evidence that Bush has spied on somebody to advance ANY sort of agenda of his. Please, go ahead.

I agreed with his martial law, but I disagree with him not giving them trials. He should have disbanded them and gave them each a fair trial in front of their peers.


Our nation is always in danger, but varying degrees of it. What Lincoln faced was potential destruction of an entire country.




American Civil Liberties Union : Top Ten Abuses of Power Since 9/11

 

[dt3]

I agreed with his martial law, but I disagree with him not giving them trials. He should have disbanded them and gave them each a fair trial in front of their peers.


Our nation is always in danger, but varying degrees of it. What Lincoln faced was potential destruction of an entire country.




American Civil Liberties Union : Top Ten Abuses of Power Since 9/11

But the Constitution is the Constitution!!! Right?

I still don't see evidence of Bush furthering his agenda. And not anything even remotely close to Lincoln imprisoning his political rivals without a trial.

 

[All Else Failed]

But the Constitution is the Constitution!!! Right?

I still don't see evidence of Bush furthering his agenda. And not anything even remotely close to Lincoln imprisoning his political rivals without a trial.

Like I said before, different times and different situations.

its been well documented that Bush has used the CIA to torture people in foreign countries, that IS worse than what Lincoln did.

Tracking the CIA Torture Flights -- In These Times


The hidden history of CIA torture / Abu Ghraib is only the newest U.S. atrocity


The Hidden History of CIA Torture:


Fars News Agency :: CIA Tortures Iranian Diplomat

 

[dt3]

Like I said before, different times and different situations.

its been well documented that Bush has used the CIA to torture people in foreign countries, that IS worse than what Lincoln did.

Tracking the CIA Torture Flights -- In These Times


The hidden history of CIA torture / Abu Ghraib is only the newest U.S. atrocity


The Hidden History of CIA Torture:


Fars News Agency :: CIA Tortures Iranian Diplomat

I'm amazed that you're for the suspension of our rights in some cases.

Still waiting on proof that Bush is pursuing his agenda with wiretaps though.

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm amazed that you're for the suspension of our rights in some cases.

Still waiting on proof that Bush is pursuing his agenda with wiretaps though.

Um, aren't you for the suspension of our rights in cases where they don't even need to be suspended? Like this one?


I don't even support the suspension of rights, but the limited modification of rights for a limited amount of time if the country is in danger of being destroyed.



I just gave you several links that outline it.

 

[dt3]

Um, aren't you for the suspension of our rights in cases where they don't even need to be suspended? Like this one?


I don't even support the suspension of rights, but the limited modification of rights for a limited amount of time if the country is in danger of being destroyed.



I just gave you several links that outline it.

That applies here, you just don't want to believe it does. Anybody who took a subjective look at the situation would see there are comparisons between Lincoln and Bush.

I asked for proof that Bush is furthering his personal agenda with warrantless wiretaps. You gave me links about torture.

 

[All Else Failed]

That applies here, you just don't want to believe it does. Anybody who took a subjective look at the situation would see there are comparisons between Lincoln and Bush.

I asked for proof that Bush is furthering his personal agenda with warrantless wiretaps. You gave me links about torture.

Of course there are similarities, but you're still not recognizing that these are two different situations and the varying degrees of what these two men did are somewhat different.


The first link I gave you had information on what you want.

 

[dt3]

Of course there are similarities, but you're still not recognizing that these are two different situations and the varying degrees of what these two men did are somewhat different.


The first link I gave you had information on what you want.

I've read the link. I didn't see anywhere that proves Bush has made some kind of personal gain off of warrantless wiretaps.

 

[All Else Failed]

I've read the link. I didn't see anywhere that proves Bush has made some kind of personal gain off of warrantless wiretaps.

I think Bush's agenda is QUITE clear. He is determined to claim a "victory" in Iraq and wherever he is going to go in the middle east. To do this, he needs to make it appealing to the American public that has already thrown up their hands in complete disgust with this war. I do believe that Bush authentically believe that what he is doing in the middle east is good, I don't doubt that, and that is where illegal things such as warrantless wiretaps and other abuses come in. He is determined by any means necessary to make any small gain in "his war on terror" even if that means pissing all over the constitution and our rights. If he can get any information, ANY....this includes false information from innocent people, he will use it to make it look as though he's making progress. I firmly believe that this man will do anything to pull himself out of his grave and try to at least doctor his image up from a failed presidency.

 

[GraceAbounds]

YouTube - Rockwell - Somebody's Watching Me

:24:

 

[dt3]

I think Bush's agenda is QUITE clear. He is determined to claim a "victory" in Iraq and wherever he is going to go in the middle east. To do this, he needs to make it appealing to the American public that has already thrown up their hands in complete disgust with this war. I do believe that Bush authentically believe that what he is doing in the middle east is good, I don't doubt that, and that is where illegal things such as warrantless wiretaps and other abuses come in. He is determined by any means necessary to make any small gain in "his war on terror" even if that means pissing all over the constitution and our rights. If he can get any information, ANY....this includes false information from innocent people, he will use it to make it look as though he's making progress. I firmly believe that this man will do anything to pull himself out of his grave and try to at least doctor his image up from a failed presidency.

All of that sounds nice, in a liberal conspiracy theory sort of way. But you have absolutely nothing to back it up, you're just flinging accusations.

 

[All Else Failed]

All of that sounds nice, in a liberal conspiracy theory sort of way. But you have absolutely nothing to back it up, you're just flinging accusations.

Well, since the CIA has admitted to the things I have described throughout the thread, its not some crack pot theory. Its real life.