Warrantless wiretapping in place before 9/11

[Boomer]

I have so much to say that I dont even want to go there. I chose no, I think we should uphold the freedoms and rights that my father served time to protect and all the other serving time right now swore to protect.

 

[Tim]

Jason, thinking about this a little more, I am truly disappointed in your responses.

I expect more from you, of all people. When you talk about past administrations partaking in the same type of activities, it sounds like a justification. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what was done in the past. If they were doing the same thing, they would be just a guilty as this administration is. You can't throw "Well Billy did it, so I can to" into the conversation and expect any academic credence to be assigned to it. If it's illegal, it's illegal... It doesn't matter how many times the law was broken prior to it, it's still wrong. If this was the norm for all previous administrations, then shame on them. I would hold as much contempt for their actions as I do for Bush's. And YES, it is Bush that is responsible for this program, he is the one that must sign off on it for it to take place. The full weight of responsibility is on his shoulders.

Just remember that 10's of millions of people have died defending that "God damned piece of paper" and if I am labeled as a Liberal Bush basher for bringing up the point that we were being spied on 6 months before 9/11 and we were still hit.... then so be it.

They had this program going 6 months before we were attacked, so what was the motivation for doing it? It couldn't have been based on the attacks of 9/11

After September the 11th, I vowed to the American people that our government would do everything within the law to protect them against another terrorist attack. As part of this effort, I authorized the National Security Agency to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. [5/11/06]

Bush

 

[All Else Failed]

says it all right there. You refuse to believe the things that are inconsistent with your scattered, liberal beliefs and substitute as bedrock truth what you think and patronize those who disagree.

You refuse to even CARE about our rights being raped in a back alley, so I wouldn't be too quick to talk.

 

[All Else Failed]

I am on the side that says wire-tapping is fine as long as the legal means were used to acquire the rights to it. America has always been a proud nation because of the beliefs of our Constitution. To forego one of our fundamental beliefs is preposterous. It's not like permission to do it would be a months-old process. if you're going to do something, do it right, or don't do it at all.

Fully agreed. :clap

 

[groundpounder]

Jason, thinking about this a little more, I am truly disappointed in your responses.

I expect more from you, of all people. When you talk about past administrations partaking in the same type of activities, it sounds like a justification. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what was done in the past. If they were doing the same thing, they would be just a guilty as this administration is. You can't throw "Well Billy did it, so I can to" into the conversation and expect any academic credence to be assigned to it. If it's illegal, it's illegal... It doesn't matter how many times the law was broken prior to it, it's still wrong. If this was the norm for all previous administrations, then shame on them. I would hold as much contempt for their actions as I do for Bush's. And YES, it is Bush that is responsible for this program, he is the one that must sign off on it for it to take place. The full weight of responsibility is on his shoulders.

Just remember that 10's of millions of people have died defending that "God damned piece of paper" and if I am labeled as a Liberal Bush basher for bringing up the point that we were being spied on 6 months before 9/11 and we were still hit.... then so be it.

They had this program going 6 months before we were attacked, so what was the motivation for doing it? It couldn't have been based on the attacks of 9/11

Bush

You clearly haven't thought about my responses enough, so I will lay them out a little more clearly for you.

Let's get one thing straight, for the record: illegal domestic spying by the gov't is REALLY REALLY bad. It's a gross violation of our constitutional rights, of which I think are central to the greatness of our country.

I think Bush had parodied himself through a series of ignorant to downright stupid statements, imperialistic policies and cavalier attitudes with the office he illgitimately holds into arguably the worst President in the history of the United States. He's flat out awful - his policies, his vetoes, his Cabinet choices, his obvious below average intelligence, his brashness, his bullheadedness. I would challenge any Bush supporter to give me an example of any other President who was worse.

AND HE'S NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE THERE!!!!!

The point that I have been continually trying to make is that for everyone to rail on Bush as the ultimate and first violator of Constitutional rights is sadly mistaken. Now, the observation that past inequities have been transgressed is not tacit approval for those being transgressed now, so you can get that out of your head. It points out that the ones being done now are being done on precedent and these types of things have been going on loooooong before Bush and his cronies were stupid enough to get caught. That doesn't make it OK and it doesn't mean I'm OK with it. It's an observation that the Bushbashers like yourself and AEF are not taking into consideration.

See, I don't drink the kool-aid that Bush is evil and that all these terrible things he's done haven't been done before, just like I didn't drink the kool-aid that Clinton was the first sitting Prez to get some strange in office and just like I didn't drink the kool-aid that Reagan was a bastion of economic greatness. But people do, and when they do, I laugh at them.

I get the fact that it rails on you a little that I call you a liberal, because you have some much pride in professing you're an independent. I'm going to dial that in a little. Yet you post things mocking prayer and religion, make a theatrical point to dt3 so that he knows a news article you retrieved was from FOX news, etc. Just some recent examples of at a minimum left-leaning behavior.

Just remember that 10's of millions of people have died defending that "God damned piece of paper" and if I am labeled as a Liberal Bush basher for bringing up the point that we were being spied on 6 months before 9/11 and we were still hit.... then so be it.

This is condescension at it's finest, to bring up the lives of people who have died defending the Constitution that I never referred to as a "god-damned piece of paper." I didn't call it that. AEF posted a paradoxical photo-chopped picture of that.
I don't think you're a Liberal Bushbasher for pointing out that we were being spied on by our own government. That type of behavior by those we have voted into power and placed our trust in is atrocious.
To question that is patriotic. To ignore that it's been going on for probably five plus decades so you can rail on Bush is not.

 

[groundpounder]

Fully agreed. :clap

Same here. There is a better way to do this than the way it's being done. And only a thankful change in administration will cure it.

 

[All Else Failed]

You clearly haven't thought about my responses enough, so I will lay them out a little more clearly for you.

Let's get one thing straight, for the record: illegal domestic spying by the gov't is REALLY REALLY bad. It's a gross violation of our constitutional rights, of which I think are central to the greatness of our country.

I think Bush had parodied himself through a series of ignorant to downright stupid statements, imperialistic policies and cavalier attitudes with the office he illgitimately holds into arguably the worst President in the history of the United States. He's flat out awful - his policies, his vetoes, his Cabinet choices, his obvious below average intelligence, his brashness, his bullheadedness. I would challenge any Bush supporter to give me an example of any other President who was worse.

AND HE'S NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE THERE!!!!!

The point that I have been continually trying to make is that for everyone to rail on Bush as the ultimate and first violator of Constitutional rights is sadly mistaken. Now, the observation that past inequities have been transgressed is not tacit approval for those being transgressed now, so you can get that out of your head. It points out that the ones being done now are being done on precedent and these types of things have been going on loooooong before Bush and his cronies were stupid enough to get caught. That doesn't make it OK and it doesn't mean I'm OK with it. It's an observation that the Bushbashers like yourself and AEF are not taking into consideration.

See, I don't drink the kool-aid that Bush is evil and that all these terrible things he's done haven't been done before, just like I didn't drink the kool-aid that Clinton was the first sitting Prez to get some strange in office and just like I didn't drink the kool-aid that Reagan was a bastion of economic greatness. But people do, and when they do, I laugh at them.

I get the fact that it rails on you a little that I call you a liberal, because you have some much pride in professing you're an independent. I'm going to dial that in a little. Yet you post things mocking prayer and religion, make a theatrical point to dt3 so that he knows a news article you retrieved was from FOX news, etc. Just some recent examples of at a minimum left-leaning behavior.

This is condescension at it's finest, to bring up the lives of people who have died defending the Constitution that I never referred to as a "god-damned piece of paper." I didn't call it that. AEF posted a paradoxical photo-chopped picture of that.
I don't think you're a Liberal Bushbasher for pointing out that we were being spied on by our own government. That type of behavior by those we have voted into power and placed our trust in is atrocious.
To question that is patriotic. To ignore that it's been going on for probably five plus decades so you can rail on Bush is not.

well well well something we can both toast to. :clap



Although I must interject. Bush is WITHOUT A DOUBT the first president to have such sweeping expansion of executive branch power in the history of the United States. That, IS his doing. Nothing like it has ever been seen before.

 

[groundpounder]

well well well something we can both toast to. :clap
Although I must interject. Bush is WITHOUT A DOUBT the first president to have such sweeping expansion of executive branch power in the history of the United States. That, IS his doing.

It's almost scary. Think of what it would have been like if Cheney were pres.

*shudders*

But you're so anti-Bush, it's almost comical. Anyone who leans that far on any given subject undermines their credibility when discussing it.

Kinda like religion. :cool

 

[dt3]

Although I must interject. Bush is WITHOUT A DOUBT the first president to have such sweeping expansion of executive branch power in the history of the United States. That, IS his doing. Nothing like it has ever been seen before.

I do believe Lincoln could challenge him for the top spot.

 

[groundpounder]

Here, I'll beat everyone else to it and save the trouble:

Lincoln was a dirty republican, too.

 

[Tim]

See here's a point that you are over looking Jason. You have only known me and my railings of this administration for maybe a year... I have spoken out on Clinton just as much... I don't play favorites. If the president does something stupid, it doesn't matter if he's Dem, Repub or Ind... I'll call it like I see it.

As far as the comment to Donnie about the Fox article... if you would take notice, EVERY article he posts is from the Fox news site.... EVERY ONE. Since I know that, I wanted to make sure that he knew that (More tongue in cheek than anything)

And don't even bring up the religion thing... from birth until I was 20 I went to a Baptist church Sunday morning service, Sunday evening service, Wednesday prayer meeting, Thursday soul winning, Christian school... etc. If there is ANYONE qualified to talk about religion and how fucked up it is, it's me. And you have never heard me say that you shouldn't be religious. But you won't see me fall for it anymore... Hell, I might as well believe that Steve built the pyramids in a day. But that's a whole other subject...

 

[Peter Parka]

Well I guess this dosen't really apply to me seeing I'm in a different country but I'm well aware this stuff will go on secretly whether we like it or not, in your country and mine. I don't think its right though. I'm surprised no one has yet said its wrong because its a Commie thing, because this is exactly the paranoid stuff leading to loads of executions that Stalin used to practice!

 

[Silious950]

Wow peter I didn't know the hate that still resonates from WW2. Don't get me wrong they did horrible things, but it's been awhile. Do a lot of people in England feel the same?

 

[Peter Parka]

Wow peter I didn't know the hate that still resonates from WW2. Don't get me wrong they did horrible things, but it's been awhile. Do a lot of people in England feel the same?

Erm...sorry, I'm not understanding.:confused USSR were our allies in WWII and we probably wouldn't have won the war without them. I think Commie bashing has only really been a big thing in the USA, especially under McCarthyism. Don't get me wrong, we always saw Stalin as an evil dictator but personally I just think he was a bad egg and Lenin, Trotsky, Che Guvara and the like are good examples of Communism.

 

[All Else Failed]

I do believe Lincoln could challenge him for the top spot.

Well, the worst thing he did was install martial law, which I actually agree with IN THAT SITUATION.***


Bush has made it possible so that people can be literally kidnapped and placed in secret prisons around the world with no trial indefinitely to be tortured for information that they probably don't even have.

^^^^ Just one example



Oh and guys, I don't blame Bush for everything because Presidents usually walk into messes the last one left behind. I just think that Bush has done A LOT to make that mess increase 10 fold.

 

[dt3]

Well, the worst thing he did was install martial law, which I actually agree with IN THAT SITUATION.***

And did away with Habeas Corpus. And locked up, without trial, members of the Maryland legislature who were talking of secession.

 

[All Else Failed]

And did away with Habeas Corpus. And locked up, without trial, members of the Maryland legislature who were talking of secession.

Oh, I know this, except Bush's aggressive policies are far more expansive in scope. Lincoln didn't send people to foreign countries that have no torture laws purposely for the reason for them to be tortured.

 

[dt3]

As far as the comment to Donnie about the Fox article... if you would take notice, EVERY article he posts is from the Fox news site.... EVERY ONE. Since I know that, I wanted to make sure that he knew that (More tongue in cheek than anything)

I laughed But I've also posted several from CNN (mostly good-news Iraq stories for the same reason you looked for this on Fox).

I haven't read everything in this thread, but here's my opinion. Obviously, I'm for it (surprise). If it was in place before Sep 11th and didn't stop it, at least at the end of the day we can say we did all we could. I'd feel a lot worse if we DIDN'T do it, and found out it would've worked.

 

[dt3]

Well, the worst thing he did was install martial law, which I actually agree with IN THAT SITUATION.***

Oh, I know this, except Bush's aggressive policies are far more expansive in scope. Lincoln didn't send people to foreign countries that have no torture laws purposely for the reason for them to be tortured.

If you know this, why do you consider martial law (legal) the worst thing he did???

Lincoln nullified an important piece of our Bill of Rights, which is the exact same thing opponents of the wire taps say. They both did it in extreme times of national crisis. Yet one was right in doing it, and one is wrong. I don't get it.

 

[All Else Failed]

If you know this, why do you consider martial law (legal) the worst thing he did???

Lincoln nullified an important piece of our Bill of Rights, which is the exact same thing opponents of the wire taps say. They both did it in extreme times of national crisis. Yet one was right in doing it, and one is wrong. I don't get it.

Because he did that under martial law, I sort of lumped what he did under martial law together.


His situation was MUCH more dire and the consequences much more extreme than what we are facing today.