The True Meaning of Christmas

[Alien Allen]

And I'm sure there are some who would also present another YouTube video that was bullshit based as well. I don't see why someone would feel the need to create such phony information if they were so sure the bible is a myth. Presenting such information that is easily proved wrong only weakens their credibility and their premise. Could it be they are not so sure after all and have to manufacture this nonsense to convince themselves?

what phony information?

I am pretty sure science is my side on this one.

The only thing to support your view is a very suspect collection of writings over 2000 years old

Unlike yourself I do not give credence to blind faith. And the science says I have firmer footing IMO.

Please provide your evidence to support a virgin birth and I will give it some thought. Until then you have nothing more then he said she said so to speak

 

[cam elle toe]

I once read that the word "virgin" in relation to the birth of Jesus has been misconstrued, and wrongly represented in the modern bible. (from back in the days when the church leaders were still editing and rewriting it) The ancient proof readers have a lot of explaining to do.
The "Virgin birth" (according to what I read) is actually in relation to Jesus' soul being "new" and not having incarnated here before....a "virgin" soul as it were...and has nothing to do with a "virgin giving birth" which we all KNOW is medically impossible.

(PLEASE NOTE THE BOLDED PART...before anyone jumps on me)

 

[Dana]

I once read that the word "virgin" in relation to the birth of Jesus has been misconstrued, and wrongly represented in the modern bible. (from back in the days when the church leaders were still editing and rewriting it) The ancient proof readers have a lot of explaining to do.
The "Virgin birth" (according to what I read) is actually in relation to Jesus' soul being "new" and not having incarnated here before....a "virgin" soul as it were...and has nothing to do with a "virgin giving birth" which we all KNOW is medically impossible.

(PLEASE NOTE THE BOLDED PART...before anyone jumps on me)

that's stupid and makes my head hurt.

 

[BornReady]

The "Virgin birth" (according to what I read) is actually in relation to Jesus' soul being "new" and not having incarnated here before....a "virgin" soul as it were...

That's an interesting theory. I hadn't heard it before. I recently read that a lot of Christians believe in reincarnation. That surprised me. I thought belief in reincarnation was limited to eastern religions but that's not the case.

 

[cam elle toe]

That's an interesting theory. I hadn't heard it before. I recently read that a lot of Christians believe in reincarnation. That surprised me. I thought belief in reincarnation was limited to eastern religions but that's not the case.

I think it is too. Doesnt hurt MY head at all, and makes much more sense than a virgin giving birth

 

[doombug]

Nope. There is a process call parthenogenesis in some animals whereby an embryo can develop without being fertilized by a male. This occurs mostly in invertebrates and some reptiles. But there are very rare cases of it happening in birds and sharks. It is not known to have ever occurred naturally in a mammal. Even if it had, it wouldn't explain the virgin birth of Jesus because offspring of parthenogenesis are always female. But the virgin birth of Jesus is easily explained as legend. The earliest Christian writings don't mention the virgin birth. That was added later. This is typical of the way legends development. The Jesus legend was likely based on a historical person though. At least that's what Bart Ehrman thinks. I wouldn't know.

Yes, BornReady a virgin birth has happened in nature but the offspring has been female. However, it could be possible in humans for a woman to give birth to a male. The way that it could happen is if the woman had both X chromosome and Y chromosome which occurs in 1 in 5 million women. So, this possibility cannot be completely ruled out as impossible.

I don't really believe this would be the case with the birth of Jesus because it is described more as a miracle. I am only discussing possibilities and how something like that COULD happen. I'm not saying that it did.

By "the earliest Christian writings" you probably are talking about when Jesus was born. As I mentioned earlier there was a virgin birth mentioned in the book of Isaiah.

 

[doombug]

what phony information?

The YouTube video that was provided has plenty of phony information in it.

I am pretty sure science is my side on this one.

Science? You mean about a virgin birth. I don't think I have claimed to believe in the virgin birth of Jesus as being a fact but since you are so convinced you are right let's examine your premise: A virgin birth of a human has never been recorded so it is impossible.

First, virgin by definition: vir·gin /vrjn/Noun: A person, typically a woman, who has never had sexual intercourse.

Second, birth by definition: birth /brTH/Noun: The emergence of a baby or other young from the body of its mother.

So, you are claiming it is scientifically impossible for a woman to get pregnant without having sex....ever heard of artificial insemination?

Artificial insemination is: ar·ti·fi·cial in·sem·i·na·tion Noun: The injection of semen into the vagina or uterus other than by sexual intercourse.

So your premise is not only flawed it is flat out bullshit.

Science is not on your side and common sense waved bye bye to you a long time ago.

The only thing to support your view is a very suspect collection of writings over 2000 years old

As I pointed out earlier I am not arguing whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin. The discussion has been about the idea of virgin births in religions and myths.

Unlike yourself I do not give credence to blind faith. And the science says I have firmer footing IMO.

Where do I claim to give credence to blind faith? You guys are so accustomed to bashing Christians that you make assumptions based on your tired arguments.

Please provide your evidence to support a virgin birth and I will give it some thought. Until then you have nothing more then he said she said so to speak

I gave my "evidence" above. I really didn't have to because I am not debating the validity of Jesus's birth to a virgin. That hasn't even been the discussion here but you picked it because you thought you had a winner. You were wrong.

 

[BornReady]

So, you are claiming it is scientifically impossible for a woman to get pregnant without having sex....ever heard of artificial insemination?

Do Christians who believe in the virgin birth think God inseminated Mary? Did God put a god sperm inside Mary which fertilized one of her eggs? If so, what is the difference between a god sperm and a human sperm? Does God have sperm? How about a penis? Or did God put a human sperm in her? If so, whose? Joseph's? Or did God put a god embryo in her? Kind of silly questions but I'm curious how Christians who believe the virgin birth story think about this.

I'm not specifically asking you this doombug. Just throwing the question out there for anyone who wants to venture a guess. Your statement about artificial insemination made me wonder. That's all.

 

[doombug]

I think Christians see it as a miracle more than an event of nature.

 

[Accountable]

I think Christians see it as a miracle more than an event of nature.

No doubt. I wonder -- if you could prove positively that Joseph and Mary had sex - scratch that - that Mary had sex and became pregnant with Jesus, and that Jesus had DNA linking him to a human mother and human father -- how many people would denounce their own Christianity?

I'm guessing, um, three ... but that's just a wag.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I once read that the word "virgin" in relation to the birth of Jesus has been misconstrued, and wrongly represented in the modern bible. (from back in the days when the church leaders were still editing and rewriting it) The ancient proof readers have a lot of explaining to do.
The "Virgin birth" (according to what I read) is actually in relation to Jesus' soul being "new" and not having incarnated here before....a "virgin" soul as it were...and has nothing to do with a "virgin giving birth" which we all KNOW is medically impossible.

(PLEASE NOTE THE BOLDED PART...before anyone jumps on me)

I've read similar writings as well Cammie. I am currently plodding through this book which covers what you posted about:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/B00395ZYVI/ref=sib_dp_kd#reader-link

Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 years



There have been numerous wars fought over whether or not there was a virgin or devine birth of a Christ, or if the man called "Jesus" was simply a human profit. So it's not real surprising we are still arguing over it today.

For me, until this Jesus dude comes to my house and turns the water into a nice keg of Coopers Ale and swills a few with me, I'll continue to be a non-believer in his divinity.

Even historically, his existence as a mere human being is questionable and appears unlikely.

 

[Minor Axis]

I once read that the word "virgin" in relation to the birth of Jesus has been misconstrued, and wrongly represented in the modern bible. (from back in the days when the church leaders were still editing and rewriting it) The ancient proof readers have a lot of explaining to do.
The "Virgin birth" (according to what I read) is actually in relation to Jesus' soul being "new" and not having incarnated here before....a "virgin" soul as it were...and has nothing to do with a "virgin giving birth" which we all KNOW is medically impossible.

(PLEASE NOTE THE BOLDED PART...before anyone jumps on me)

You have to realize that the term virgin birth as to do with being inseminated by God, no man was involved, and exists in the realm of the religious supernatural which all true Christians are perfectly comfortable with.

 

[BornReady]

I'm guessing, um, three ... but that's just a wag.

lol I think you're right.

You have to realize that the term virgin birth as to do with being inseminated by God, no man was involved, and exists in the realm of the religious supernatural which all true Christians are perfectly comfortable with.

So if Mary was inseminated by God then Jesus wasn't human, correct? He was half god and half human, i.e. a demigod like Hercules. Or if you prefer you could say Jesus was super human. But not so according to traditional doctrine. Virgin birth doctrine claims Jesus was all god and all human, as if that's suppose to mean something. So it brings me back to the moment of Jesus' conception. What did God inseminated Mary with? Apparently God doesn't have sperm (although Zeus does). But if God inseminated Mary with human sperm, presumably Joseph's sperm, then why not let Joseph do it. Is sex so evil?

 

[cam elle toe]

I've read similar writings as well Cammie. I am currently plodding through this book which covers what you posted about:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/B00395ZYVI/ref=sib_dp_kd#reader-link

Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 years



There have been numerous wars fought over whether or not there was a virgin or devine birth of a Christ, or if the man called "Jesus" was simply a human profit. So it's not real surprising we are still arguing over it today.

For me, until this Jesus dude comes to my house and turns the water into a nice keg of Coopers Ale and swills a few with me, I'll continue to be a non-believer in his divinity.

Even historically, his existence as a mere human being is questionable and appears unlikely.

Coopers Ale.
I read books written by The Rosicrucians, and another really old one written by The Essenes about his "missing years" (The 20 odd years the Bible skims over when Jesus was "travelling')
Funny, both were similar to Dan Browns Da Vinci Code too.

 

[doombug]

So if Mary was inseminated by God then Jesus wasn't human, correct? He was half god and half human, i.e. a demigod like Hercules. Or if you prefer you could say Jesus was super human. But not so according to traditional doctrine. Virgin birth doctrine claims Jesus was all god and all human, as if that's suppose to mean something. So it brings me back to the moment of Jesus' conception. What did God inseminated Mary with? Apparently God doesn't have sperm (although Zeus does). But if God inseminated Mary with human sperm, presumably Joseph's sperm, then why not let Joseph do it. Is sex so evil?

I don't undertand why there is such a mystery as to how a virgin female human could get pregnant.
Should we think the Creator of the universe incapable of producing the male gamete cell necessary for the procreation of Jesus? Why do some people rationalize this event beyond reason when mere mortal humans have demonstrated skill and success with artificial insemination?

The term "demigod" is just that: a term. However someone wants to look at is their choice.

 

[Dana]

I cannot believe people are still debating this wqith such adamant passion. These type of debates go nowhere. I for one found the OP to be on a humorous note and everyones popping a gasket.

 

[doombug]

I've read similar writings as well Cammie. I am currently plodding through this book which covers what you posted about:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/B00395ZYVI/ref=sib_dp_kd#reader-link

Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 years



There have been numerous wars fought over whether or not there was a virgin or devine birth of a Christ, or if the man called "Jesus" was simply a human profit. So it's not real surprising we are still arguing over it today.

I hear this book is a good read from a historical standpoint. I have to laugh when people mention the reason why wars are fought though. There is always speculation as to why wars are fought because there is always a PR campaign to justify them. The US just hangs the idea of a threat to freedom to justify wars but no one really knows except those who make the decision to go to war. Everyone else can only speculate.

For me, until this Jesus dude comes to my house and turns the water into a nice keg of Coopers Ale and swills a few with me, I'll continue to be a non-believer in his divinity.

Even historically, his existence as a mere human being is questionable and appears unlikely.

Wow John, you will buy into a bogus YouTube video but require to meet someone in person to believe they even existed. I guess everyone that has ever existed in history is a myth to you.

 

[Minor Axis]

So if Mary was inseminated by God then Jesus wasn't human, correct? He was half god and half human, i.e. a demigod like Hercules. Or if you prefer you could say Jesus was super human. But not so according to traditional doctrine. Virgin birth doctrine claims Jesus was all god and all human, as if that's suppose to mean something. So it brings me back to the moment of Jesus' conception. What did God inseminated Mary with? Apparently God doesn't have sperm (although Zeus does). But if God inseminated Mary with human sperm, presumably Joseph's sperm, then why not let Joseph do it. Is sex so evil?

Do I have to explain this to you? If God has unlimited power, he just snaps his celestial finger, creates and applies some sperm to the right location. If he wanted, he could have just enhanced Joseph's sperm with some special qualities to do the job, and finally he could have knocked out Joseph, materialized in Mary's tent and came to her in a dream, doing it the old fashioned way. Who knows what pleases the all mighty? After all that is how the ancient Gods did it when they had a good looking human in their sights. However I acknowledge the term "virgin birth" implies no physical sex/penetration, that is why I included the "dream" aspect of the experience.

I don't undertand why there is such a mystery as to how a virgin female human could get pregnant.
Should we think the Creator of the universe incapable of producing the male gamete cell necessary for the procreation of Jesus? Why do some people rationalize this event beyond reason when mere mortal humans have demonstrated skill and success with artificial insemination?

You've said it all. Thanks!

 

[Minor Axis]

However I acknowledge the term "virgin birth" implies no physical sex/penetration, that is why I included the "dream" aspect of the experience.

I forgot to add, now you know where the term "OH GOD" comes from. :emo_love031

 

[doombug]

You've said it all. Thanks!

Tsk, Tsk Minor Axis you are cherry picking statements only to make an empty comment. You've gotten quite desperate haven't you.