The True Meaning of Christmas

[doombug]

It's this simple, you like proof? You answer proves I'm right. You don't answer any direct questions which could put doubt on the side of the argument you have been defending.

I don't answer any questions until the questions I ask are answered. It is simple. You only create your own illusion.

 

[Minor Axis]

I don't answer any questions until the questions I ask are answered. It is simple. You only create your own illusion.

Nice side stepping. :clap

 

[BornReady]

How is it a good move to lie about the birthday of the person who embodies the religion?

The catholic church didn't have any idea when Jesus was born. By picking December 25th they were able to hijack a popular holiday. People like to celebrate. Give them something to celebrate and you are more likely to win them over. They probably didn't consider it lying since they probably assumed everyone would realize they just made it up. That some people in later generations might take them literally probably didn't occur to them. I imagine that happens a lot in myth making.

Anyway, by good move I meant it was a good move politically.

 

[doombug]

Nice side stepping. :clap

Not me, even though there is plenty of side stepping here....

 

[Accountable]

The catholic church didn't have any idea when Jesus was born. By picking December 25th they were able to hijack a popular holiday. People like to celebrate. Give them something to celebrate and you are more likely to win them over. They probably didn't consider it lying since they probably assumed everyone would realize they just made it up. That some people in later generations might take them literally probably didn't occur to them. I imagine that happens a lot in myth making.

Anyway, by good move I meant it was a good move politically.

I'm not going into the weeds on this because I'm just not educated in religious history, but scholars figured out Christ's birthday to be a different season. I'm pretty sure (based on my really foggy memory) that the Church knew they were lying for political reasons. Of course, you spot on about it being politically astute, but it's supposed to be religion, not politics.

 

[doombug]

The catholic church didn't have any idea when Jesus was born. By picking December 25th they were able to hijack a popular holiday. People like to celebrate. Give them something to celebrate and you are more likely to win them over. They probably didn't consider it lying since they probably assumed everyone would realize they just made it up. That some people in later generations might take them literally probably didn't occur to them. I imagine that happens a lot in myth making.

Anyway, by good move I meant it was a good move politically.

I don't know there Born.There is more than one theory as to why Christmas is celebrated on December 25. Coinciding with some pagan holiday seems to be the most popular on this forum. Could there be a lack of open mindedness here?

 

[BornReady]

I'm not going into the weeds on this because I'm just not educated in religious history, but scholars figured out Christ's birthday to be a different season.

Apparently Palestinian shepherds didn't tend their flocks at night in December. So if you believe the story about the angels and shepherds then you'd probably want to put Jesus' birthday in the Spring or Summer. But the truth of the matter is we don't know when he was born. Some would even say if he was born.

There is more than one theory as to why Christmas is celebrated on December 25.

I didn't know there were other theories. Please enlighten me.

 

[Accountable]

I don't know there Born.There is more than one theory as to why Christmas is celebrated on December 25. Coinciding with some pagan holiday seems to be the most popular on this forum. Could there be a lack of open mindedness here?

Could be that. Could be straight up ignorance. I claim ignorance, like BornReady. What other theory(ies) is/are there?

 

[BornReady]

Of course, you spot on about it being politically astute, but it's supposed to be religion, not politics.

I think religion and politics were married at that time.

 

[Accountable]

Politics is an amoral process that views everything as a tool, a means to an end. "Marrying" the two means that the ones that are supposed to be moral have become corrupt, which means the religion ceases to be religion and makes what they practice actually pure politics, regardless of what they call it.

 

[doombug]

Unlike others on this forum I don't mind providing at least some info. Here is a quote from wikipedia on the subject:

" Theories advanced to explain that choice(of Dec. 25) include that it falls exactly nine months after the Christian celebration of the conception of Jesus, or that it was selected to coincide with either the date of the Roman winter solstice or of some ancient winter festival."

But really the bottom line is that no one really knows for sure. I have yet to see anything about politics being involved but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I don't know what any political group would gain from selecting December 25.

 

[Accountable]

Political power requires numbers. Once the religion gained popularity, the political power plays are clear throughout all the history books.

 

[BornReady]

"Marrying" the two means that the ones that are supposed to be moral have become corrupt,

I agree.

Theories advanced to explain that choice(of Dec. 25) include that it falls exactly nine months after the Christian celebration of the conception of Jesus,

And the date of the Annunciation was probably picked because of the Spring equinox. These are not likely the real dates of Jesus' conception and birth. They were chosen. Give people something to celebrate and it's easier to win them over.

But really the bottom line is that no one really knows for sure.

I agree. There is a 1/365 probability Jesus was born on December 25.

 

[doombug]

And the date of the Annunciation was probably picked because of the Spring equinox. These are not likely the real dates of Jesus' conception and birth. They were chosen. Give people something to celebrate and it's easier to win them over.

I agree. There is a 1/365 probability Jesus was born on December 25.

I really don't see much reason for picking December 25 other than convenience. Look at Kwanzaa that is celebrated around the same time. Since it's the "holidays" to begin with might as well celebrate whatever during that time anyway because most everything comes to a halt during this time. If we really spread out every holiday we had and had a proper celebration for each nothing would get done because of it. So I don't really see much significance either way. I also don't see any conspiracy involved with the date picking either. It was probably a matter of convenience.

 

[Accountable]

:24: @ "it's the 'holidays' to begin with".

Anybody been to Rome during Christmas? How many of the pagan traditions does the Vatican practice? My WAG is that they don't have an annual Lighting of the Tree ceremony, but I really don't know.

 

[BornReady]

Since it's the "holidays" to begin with might as well celebrate whatever during that time anyway because most everything comes to a halt during this time.

Exactly. The last thing the church wanted was for all the pagans to have a merry party and the christians to have to go to work. The pagans were celebrating so the church gave the christians something to celebrate too.

I also don't see any conspiracy involved with the date picking either.

I agree. No conspiracy. If you don't know when someone was born then one day is as good as another. December 25th was picked because it coincided with a popular pagan holiday at that time. The recently converted christians brought many of their pagan traditions into the new christmas celebration. This is why we see pagan roots in christmas.

Some christians see this as a reason not to celebrate christmas. I disagree. Christmas is a great holiday. It has something for everyone. Christmas can be a very sacred celebration for christians. It's silly not to take advantage of it. If someone doesn't like the commercialization or Santa or whatever then they can skip that aspect. Just my opinion.

 

[Minor Axis]

The catholic church didn't have any idea when Jesus was born. By picking December 25th they were able to hijack a popular holiday. People like to celebrate. Give them something to celebrate and you are more likely to win them over. They probably didn't consider it lying since they probably assumed everyone would realize they just made it up. That some people in later generations might take them literally probably didn't occur to them. I imagine that happens a lot in myth making.

Anyway, by good move I meant it was a good move politically.

I bet you a dollar the official proclamation was that Dec25 is Jesus's birthday, not the day we chose to celebrate it. You could be right, but based on my prejudices, I'd suspect it was more a means of hijacking a popular holiday than just an innocent coincidence.

Unlike others on this forum I don't mind providing at least some info. Here is a quote from wikipedia on the subject:

" Theories advanced to explain that choice(of Dec. 25) include that it falls exactly nine months after the Christian celebration of the conception of Jesus, or that it was selected to coincide with either the date of the Roman winter solstice or of some ancient winter festival."

But really the bottom line is that no one really knows for sure. I have yet to see anything about politics being involved but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I don't know what any political group would gain from selecting December 25.

Here you go: The Real Story of Christmas. Interesting reading.

In the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]
The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25[SUP]th[/SUP], to be Jesus’ birthday.

Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

Pagan festivals celebrated fertility and in some cases abundant sexuality. My kinda party. Christmas could be livened up by going back to it's roots. Seriously Christmas appears to be an outstanding example of a religion selling its integrity for political/popular advantage.

 

[BornReady]

I bet you a dollar the official proclamation was that Dec25 is Jesus's birthday, not the day we chose to celebrate it.

I'm not going to take your bet. I may have misspoke. Sometimes I construe people's intentions as better than they are. I guess I'm a bit of a pollyanna. So perhaps we should chalk this one up as a victory to Accountable and you. But I'll win the next one. See? I'm a true optimist.

 

[Minor Axis]

I'm not going to take your bet. I may have misspoke. Sometimes I construe people's intentions as better than they are. I guess I'm a bit of a pollyanna. So perhaps we should chalk this one up as a victory to Accountable and you. But I'll win the next one. See? I'm a true optimist.

I don't consider it a victory, just a discussion. I mean we would all hope that an organization like the Church would display the best of humanity, truth, honesty, compassion, responsibility, integrity, etc, etc. Unfortunately truth in most ways seems to be incompatible with religion. And on many occasions, protecting the organization has become more important than the other attributes I mentioned. Cheers!

 

[BornReady]

I don't consider it a victory, just a discussion.

Yeah, I'm here to have fun. And I do talking with you.