so now our President is bowing to another foreign leader

[ZubaZ]

You are classless. The rest of your cute little diatribe is shown for what it is with this.

And you need to get a grip on reality. Oh mah Gawd, someone made a sarcastic post, they deserve to be invaded for weapons of mass destruction! :24:

 

[Alien Allen]

And you need to get a grip on reality. Oh mah Gawd, someone made a sarcastic post, they deserve to be invaded for weapons of mass destruction! :24:

Classless sarcasm. If the gutter level suits you then enjoy wallowing in it.

 

[ZubaZ]

If blissful ignorance about America, with a side of high & mighty is where you want to live, the movie theater is down the street. Tell me what exactly you dislike about my posts, was something I said untrue?

America didn't have a good global representation before Obama. A war based on false information, coupled with the death of hundreds of innocent people, and torture doesn't exactly earn respect. After all, the government the American military gave the boot to used to torture and kill innocent people as well. I guess the best way to end oppression and torture is with more oppression and torture? Also lets not forget the families of all those soldiers who have died for a pointless cause in Afghanistan. ( My family included) Hey, how about G-Bay an all those people who were being held for years without a trial date, much less a trial. Even when they are moved to NY and receive a trial, how unbiased can a bunch of Americans be when they see a group of Arabs in front of them? Especially knowing that said Arabs are from G-Bay and were held (illegally) for years on the basis of terrorism? Hell after Sept 11, every Muslim had to go into hiding and their places of prayer were vandalized.

Maybe you disagree with Obama not being black? Here's a little food for thought, Obama's children have more claim to beong black than Obama has. A black man and a white women do not make a black child, they make a bi-racial child which is classified as "mixed." If obama is black then I'm Kofi freakin Kolo black.

Maybe you disliked me saying all Asians look a like? Well that's a joke. Undo your bunched panties and relax Bertha.

 

[nova]

If blissful ignorance about America, with a side of high & mighty is where you want to live, the movie theater is down the street. Tell me what exactly you dislike about my posts, was something I said untrue?

The problem with your posts is you seem to assume that the failings of the prior incompetent boob excuse the failings of the current incompetent boob, which is far from the case.

The stated goal has been to improve the image of the US, but acting weak and subservient is not the way to do that. Its entirely possible to act in a manner of respectful equals towards our allies....

 

[ZubaZ]

I'm not saying that Obama bowing or not bowing was right or wrong. What I'm saying its, that its a formality that will soon be forgotten. America isn't going to be looked at as the bitch of the world because Obama bowed to some guy a foot and a half sorter than him. Fact is the guy is making an attempt to smooth over years of fuck ups by previous governments that has left America very low on the global scale of respect. Sure he may make some formal mistakes that hold zero impact in the long run, but its much better than the two wars without an exit strategy or a just cause for in the first place. Along with all the other things that in a way have made Americans look no better than those they are trying to eliminate.

People are bitching about the dumbest things.

 

[Guyzerr]

The bar had already been lowered. As Tang said we would have a different world if there had been 24/7 news back during WWII

That was over 50 years ago. Don't you think it's time to move on and find another excuse to justify the shit that's going on? I sure as hell do.

That is not justifying anything but just a statement of what I believe to be fact. Shit has always been going on but it rarely saw the light of day. No side in battle is immune from doing barbaric things to the enemy. War is not clean.

Then why is the US still a supporter of the Geneva Convention and all the bullshit it stands for? If a country doesn't want to fight by the rules than make an announcement to that effect and do what you like. See how far that gets you when some of your people are " captured".

I'm going to ask you the same question AA. What are your feeling on other countries doing to your military men & women / civilians that the US does to theirs?

 

[Alien Allen]

Guyzer other countries do that kind of shit to us. If not worse. Bodies dragged thru the streets. Beheadings.

ZubaZ if you look at the post I first engaged you then look at what I bolded. When you throw that in the middle of a diatribe it loses credibility.

 

[Guyzerr]

Guyzer other countries do that kind of shit to us. If not worse. Bodies dragged thru the streets. Beheadings.

I understand that but you still didn't answer my question.

 

[ZubaZ]

Guyzer other countries do that kind of shit to us. If not worse. Bodies dragged thru the streets. Beheadings.

ZubaZ if you look at the post I first engaged you then look at what I bolded. When you throw that in the middle of a diatribe it loses credibility.

It wasn't about credibility. It was done to show disdain for a man who has been compared to Hitler for the war crimes he supported. If you cant understand that, well that's your problem.

 

[Accountable]

Are you that 12-year-old in your av?

 

[kelvin070]

LMAO, while you kill thousands of innocent people in the two wars, Obama now touting for freedom in China. This is hyprocracy at the highest level.

 

[nova]

Then why is the US still a supporter of the Geneva Convention and all the bullshit it stands for? If a country doesn't want to fight by the rules than make an announcement to that effect and do what you like. See how far that gets you when some of your people are " captured".

It would likely get us pretty far. Any country that would abide by the terms of Geneva (like an EU country) is going to do it whether we're a party to the treaty or not. A North Korea or someone similar probably isn't going to follow Geneva anyway.

I'm going to ask you the same question AA. What are your feeling on other countries doing to your military men & women / civilians that the US does to theirs?

What exactly have we done to military members in uniform? I'm not aware of any abuses against them?

Not that I particularly approve of indefinite detention and torture, they're rather distasteful to say the least, but when you join and participate in the activities of an extra-national organization intent of waging what amounts to a private war against a nation, you take your chances at receiving some pretty harsh treatment.

All the nice treaties that make war just a bit more civil amongst nations, simply don't apply to what amounts to private organizations waging war as they can't be a party to treaties.

As of right now, those types of organizations are operating in a legal gray area, with no real definition of what they are, what their rights are and what actions are appropriate to deal with them.

In a sense they're criminals, except most of their actions occur in places outside the legal jurisdiction of the US and only the attacks happen in jurisdiction, pushing them outside the bounds of merely criminal.

In another sense they're military because they are heavily armed and wage attacks across national borders except they wear no uniform and swear no allegiance to any country, pushing them outside the bounds of military.

Until the nations of the world sit down and hammer out another treaty defining exactly what these groups are and how to deal with them, there is no "right and proper" way to treat anybody involved with these extra-national groups waging war....

 

[CeeRose28]

I think he was just trying to show respect when he bowed. Did he necessarily have to bow? Hell to the no, but it was a nice gesture and I somewhat agree with it...somewhat.

Either way, bowing or no bowing, the guy has not done shit since he got into office. Lets bounce around some health care plans and have beers with some dudes when they fight.

:thumbup

 

[ZubaZ]

Are you that 12-year-old in your av?

No the guy is just a complete stud muffin so I put him in my avy. Are you the creepy pedophile in your avatar?

 

[Godsloveapples]

You simply don't bow to a foreign monarch, in doing so you are accepting their authority over you. In addition, Obama didn't bow to Queen Elizabeth, but he practically gets low enough bowing to both the Japanese Emperor and Saudi King that he probably could've blown them without too much difficulty.

I don't disagree that people get worked up over stupid shit, on all sides of the political spectrum. But at the same time, I think this is a bigger deal than people are making it out to be. Hell, the Obama administration has come out defending it, claiming that he bowed out of "policy", when in actuality the State Department policy is that the President will not bow to a foreign monarch.

President Obama's bow was just simply a sign of respect, nothing more. If you don't disagree that people get worked up over stupid shit, then why are you going so crazy over this? The Japanese and Saudi Arabians praised it as a sign of respect. He's just showing respect for their culture. Believe me, President Obama knows what he's doing.
Gosh, you look like you just want to stir things up and would rather that we start wars rather than respect each other. Sheesh. People showing respect to one another is a GOOD thing.

 

[Alien Allen]

It wasn't about credibility. It was done to show disdain for a man who has been compared to Hitler for the war crimes he supported. If you cant understand that, well that's your problem.

And is a childish class less way to make the point. IMO

Guyzer I answered the question. I said they already are doing shit to our soldiers and civilians they are capturing and kidnapping.

In a perfect world that shit does not happen. When you throw in the emotions of war it is going to send some over the brink. Not interested in debating the merits of waterboarding and stuff we approved. You and I will never agree on the legality of that stuff.

Back on topic I am not all that concerned about Obama bowing. It is the rest of the crap that he does to discredit this country that bothers me. I believe he has gone overboard trying to undue the Bush years as far as the perception in the world of us. Being a narcissist he probably believes he can single handedly make everybody get along. That is a dangerous ideal that is not rooted in reality. There are people out there still working on destroying us one little piece at a time.

 

[Guyzerr]

It would likely get us pretty far. Any country that would abide by the terms of Geneva (like an EU country) is going to do it whether we're a party to the treaty or not. A North Korea or someone similar probably isn't going to follow Geneva anyway.

I was referring to the US not following the convention. Canadians and the rest of the so called " coalition " are probably just as guilty. I could give a shit about the rest because it's expected they don't follow the rules. I expect more from a civilized country.

What exactly have we done to military members in uniform? I'm not aware of any abuses against them?

You really don't believe that do you? Please tell me you don't. Like someone said in a previous post torture etc. by ALL sides has been going on in wars for ions. That would include civilized countries such as the US.

There are countless instances but because it's early and I have to leave for work soon I just placed this one here.

Anatomy of an Army murder - CNN.com

Not that I particularly approve of indefinite detention and torture, they're rather distasteful to say the least, but when you join and participate in the activities of an extra-national organization intent of waging what amounts to a private war against a nation, you take your chances at receiving some pretty harsh treatment.

That goes for the US as well. I guess your citizens are fair game. Let the fun begin?

*** pondering..... did Iraq and Afghanistan enter the US or was it the other way around.... hummmmmm ***

All the nice treaties that make war just a bit more civil amongst nations, simply don't apply to what amounts to private organizations waging war as they can't be a party to treaties.

Are those treaties for non-uniformed combatants only or are they meant for the countries that signed them as well?

As of right now, those types of organizations are operating in a legal gray area, with no real definition of what they are, what their rights are and what actions are appropriate to deal with them.

Ever think of dealing with them humanly if you snag one? That would be a good start.

In a sense they're criminals, except most of their actions occur in places outside the legal jurisdiction of the US and only the attacks happen in jurisdiction, pushing them outside the bounds of merely criminal.

So you just go where they are and get 'em anyway.

In another sense they're military because they are heavily armed and wage attacks across national borders except they wear no uniform and swear no allegiance to any country, pushing them outside the bounds of military.

Seems to me they are fighting inn their country to protect their way of life. The problem is the US doesn't subscribe to their way of thinking so that makes them ( non-US ) wrong. Once the US has determined that someone is wrong there is no stopping you.

Until the nations of the world sit down and hammer out another treaty defining exactly what these groups are and how to deal with them, there is no "right and proper" way to treat anybody involved with these extra-national groups waging war....

Treaties are pointless. The only time any country follows them is when it suits their cause. If it doesn't fall withing their criteria they break the rules. Always have, always will.

 

[Guyzerr]

Guyzer I answered the question. I said they already are doing shit to our soldiers and civilians they are capturing and kidnapping.

I didn't ask you if they were doing shit like that. I asked you how you feel about it?

In a perfect world that shit does not happen. When you throw in the emotions of war it is going to send some over the brink. Not interested in debating the merits of waterboarding and stuff we approved. You and I will never agree on the legality of that stuff.

You don't need to answer my question because you just did by the statement above.

 

[Alien Allen]

I do not like that it happens Guy. But how I feel is not going to change anything.

 

[nova]

I was referring to the US not following the convention. Canadians and the rest of the so called " coalition " are probably just as guilty. I could give a shit about the rest because it's expected they don't follow the rules. I expect more from a civilized country.

You ask what would happen, I tell you and then you blow it off. WTF?

You really don't believe that do you? Please tell me you don't. Like someone said in a previous post torture etc. by ALL sides has been going on in wars for ions. That would include civilized countries such as the US.

When are you talking about? I was talking about recent conflicts against uniformed soldiers. If you're talking about in the entire history of the US, then of course there have been abuses.

There are countless instances but because it's early and I have to leave for work soon I just placed this one here.

Anatomy of an Army murder - CNN.com

To point out abuses you pull up an instance where the perpetrators were tried and convicted? That seems to be an example of what we won't tolerate.

That goes for the US as well. I guess your citizens are fair game. Let the fun begin?

As far as I'm concerned yes. If Blackwater saddles up and starts dropping bombs on Venezuela, then they deserve what they get. If you are not a nation-state and aren't officially sanctioned by and operating under the authority of one, and are waging war against a nation-state, you have no protections. Period. You deserve what you get. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

*** pondering..... did Iraq and Afghanistan enter the US or was it the other way around.... hummmmmm ***

I'm not talking about Iraq as much as you want to make it about that big pile of BS. I don't like us being in Iraq any more than you do.

In Afghanistan we were going after the aforementioned extra-national group that had come here and attacked us first, multiple times in fact. The only reason we attacked Taliban Afghanistan as a nation is their actions demonstrated they were harboring and providing shelter to AQ. I dare say the Taliban would still be in power today had they either handed over the elements of AQ or let us go in after them unhindered.

Are those treaties for non-uniformed combatants only or are they meant for the countries that signed them as well?

Geneva and the like govern the actions of the signatory nation, but only with regards to certain situations (open warfare) and only with regards to certain actors(uniformed soldiers, unarmed civilians and spontaneous non-uniformed militias of an invaded nation). If you don't fit into one of those 3 categories you don't really have any legal protections. Thats why spies can still be tried and executed.

AQ does not fit into any of those 3 groups I mentioned. They are a non-uniformed fighting force, operating outside the control of any nation state, conducting what amounts to military operations and attacks across national boundaries.

Ever think of dealing with them humanly if you snag one? That would be a good start.

I tend to agree. We have a certain ethical and moral obligation to do so. However, you were talking legal obligations and in regards to these extra-national groups, we don't have a international legal obligation to do or not do anything with them.

So you just go where they are and get 'em anyway.

But how do you deal with them when you get them? Trying the in a court of law is exceedingly hard for a multitude of reasons, including but not limited to the facts that it requires military action to capture them since they're so heavily armed (violating all our rules of arrest and evidence) and the fact that if you're in another country when you violate US law, you technically haven't violated US law.

Seems to me they are fighting inn their country to protect their way of life. The problem is the US doesn't subscribe to their way of thinking so that makes them ( non-US ) wrong. Once the US has determined that someone is wrong there is no stopping you.

Now you're just being obtuse. Who are you talking about? Iraqis? Al Quada? Depending on who you're talking about you could be right or wrong

If you're talking about AQ, then no you're wrong. I'm all for blowing shit up and killing people when they came here and did it first. I think our biggest mistake was staying in Afghanistan to "nation build" once we had accomplished the misison of degrading and scattering AQ.

And as I said above, Iraq was just BS anyway...

Treaties are pointless. The only time any country follows them is when it suits their cause. If it doesn't fall withing their criteria they break the rules. Always have, always will.

Well then why are you griping about legal obligations towards prisoners? Without a framework in law or treaty, there are no legal obligations. If you just don't like what we do, whatever it is and whatever the situation, just come out and say it instead of being obtuse and wrapping it in these legal arguments..