Science Saved My Soul.....................

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Sparkey Duck

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wow *slowly turns a walks away

oh, I liked the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy...!! Not sure that really brings anything to this clusterfuck.
 
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Diggin Deep

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Most of us have heard the story of Job, but what of David? The questions he asks God are the same that many of us do today. The same questions that are posed in the religious forum - If there is a God and if He is who he says he is, then why do we suffer? If He cares as much as His believers says He does, then why doesn't He just snap his fingers and take care of it.

The psalmist David endured much suffering in his time, and this is reflected in many of his poems collected in the book of Psalms. In Psalm 22, we hear the sound of David’s anguish:

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? Oh my God, I cry out by day but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent. Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel. In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed. But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 'He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.'”

It remains an unfathomable mystery to David why God does not intervene in the midst of his suffering and pain. He sees God as the one who is enthroned as the Holy One, the praise of Israel. After all, doesn’t God lead a pretty sheltered life? Isn’t God lucky to live in heaven where all is sweetness and light, where there is no weeping or fear, no hunger or hatred? What does God know of all that humans go through? David goes on to complain that “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

Did God ever answer David? Sure enough, many centuries later, David received his answer. Roughly one millennium later, a descendent of David named Christ Jesus was killed on a hill called Calvary. On the cross, God endured the suffering and shame of his forefather. Christ’s hands and feet were pierced. Christ’s garments were divided among his enemies. Christ was stared at and gloated over and derided. In fact, Christ uttered the words with which David opens this Psalm, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” thus identifying himself with the suffering of his forefather.

Because Christ, the eternal Son of God in whom the fullness of God dwells, has lived on earth as a human being and has endured hunger, thirst, temptation, shame, persecution, nakedness, bereavement, betrayal, mockery, injustice and death, He is in a position to fulfil the longing of Job, “If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more. Then I would speak up without fear of him, but as it now stands with me, I cannot” (Job 9:33).

Christian theism is, in fact, the only worldview which can consistently make sense of the problem of evil and suffering. Apart from the fact that Christians serve a God who has lived on this earth and been through trauma, temptation, bereavement, torture, hunger, thirst, persecution and even execution, the cross of Christ can be regarded as the ultimate manifestation of God’s justice. When asked how much God cares about the problem of evil and suffering, the Christian God is the only God who can point to the cross, and say “that much.” Christ experienced rejection from God, saying, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” He experienced just the same suffering as many people do in many parts of the world today who are feeling isolated from God’s favor and love.
 
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Peter Parka

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Sounds barbaric to me that an all powerful god who could solve the worlds problems with a click of his fingers chooses to do it by having his son tortured and killed. My dad is far from perfect but I'd choose his for my father every day of the week over the god of the bible! :willy_nilly:
 

Panacea

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I'm not convinced of the likelihood of a god as it is commonly defined, and therefore don't blame anything on said definition, but I find faulty logic in the argument that the god can be the creator of everything and capable of anything but not of certain things, which is usually the really bad (or trivial like duvets) stuff...

There's this weird two-faced argument regarding human responsibility and god responsibility...I suppose it comes from the general underlying theme that god is good and most people aren't good enough...few want to tie merciless suffering to their merciful god, or some claim the suffering is for a greater purpose in heaven?

It's interesting, for sure.


I will watch the video in the OP when I get home from work :)
 

Tim

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WHy is it up to God to fix it, when he didnt create the mess!

We give our adult children free will, we help them as best we can, but if we run and fix every single little mistake they make, EVERY time they make it...how will they learn?

The answer is they wont. They have to learn to help themselves and fix their own mistakes...they have to learn BY their mistakes and not repeat them.
Unfortunately, us human "doings" are slow learners;)...and we are lazy and want "someone else" to take responsibility, whether that be "God" or "Government"

I've heard this point made before by others and it just doesn't make any sense at all...

You do NOT know what choices your children will make or what consequences they will bring before they are born. But God KNEW that Adam and Eve would sin before he created them. He knew that billions of people would suffer here on earth and burn in hell for eternity BEFORE he created them because of the choices his creations made.
God loves pigs infinitely more than man... let me explain. Pigs are NOT born into sin and do not need to accept Jesus into their heart to avoid an eternity in a burning lake of fire and torment once they die. There has never been a pig in history who died and was sentenced to an ETERNITY of suffering, A FUCKING ETERNITY!!! Yet billions upon billions of people will suffer this fate.

There is no way in hell you or anyone else can convince me that this god exists. The bible describes a god that makes Hitler look like mother Teresa.

Nobody, and I mean nobody deserves an eternity of suffering. Yet your perfect god has condemned billions of good people to it because they didn't play his game. A game where the rules were laid down 2000 years ago to some goat herders in the desert. That's sick, twisted and insane...
 

Niamh

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I've heard this point made before by others and it just doesn't make any sense at all...

You do NOT know what choices your children will make or what consequences they will bring before they are born. But God KNEW that Adam and Eve would sin before he created them. He knew that billions of people would suffer here on earth and burn in hell for eternity BEFORE he created them because of the choices his creations made.
God loves pigs infinitely more than man... let me explain. Pigs are NOT born into sin and do not need to accept Jesus into their heart to avoid an eternity in a burning lake of fire and torment once they die. There has never been a pig in history who died and was sentenced to an ETERNITY of suffering, A FUCKING ETERNITY!!! Yet billions upon billions of people will suffer this fate.

There is no way in hell you or anyone else can convince me that this god exists. The bible describes a god that makes Hitler look like mother Teresa.

Nobody, and I mean nobody deserves an eternity of suffering. Yet your perfect god has condemned billions of good people to it because they didn't play his game. A game where the rules were laid down 2000 years ago to some goat herders in the desert. That's sick, twisted and insane...

Great post and I agree whole heartedly. The truth of the matter is that none of us know for sure how everything began but I do think it's likely that we're not as important as we like to think we are in the grand scheme of things.
 

Dana

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I don't need "science" to save my soul. I'm not religious but I also don't buy 100% into scientific theory.
 

Diggin Deep

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I've heard this point made before by others and it just doesn't make any sense at all...

You do NOT know what choices your children will make or what consequences they will bring before they are born. But God KNEW that Adam and Eve would sin before he created them. He knew that billions of people would suffer here on earth and burn in hell for eternity BEFORE he created them because of the choices his creations made.
God loves pigs infinitely more than man... let me explain. Pigs are NOT born into sin and do not need to accept Jesus into their heart to avoid an eternity in a burning lake of fire and torment once they die. There has never been a pig in history who died and was sentenced to an ETERNITY of suffering, A FUCKING ETERNITY!!! Yet billions upon billions of people will suffer this fate.

There is no way in hell you or anyone else can convince me that this god exists. The bible describes a god that makes Hitler look like mother Teresa.

Nobody, and I mean nobody deserves an eternity of suffering. Yet your perfect god has condemned billions of good people to it because they didn't play his game. A game where the rules were laid down 2000 years ago to some goat herders in the desert. That's sick, twisted and insane...

Someone needs a hug :smiley31: :D
 

Accountable

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Great post and I agree whole heartedly. The truth of the matter is that none of us know for sure how everything began but I do think it's likely that we're not as important as we like to think we are in the grand scheme of things.
That's sort of the way I think life and death are - not as important as we like to think they are in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps, in the grand scheme of things, this life is like infancy, and what we consider suffering is the grand scheme equivalent of a baby bumping his butt as he tries to walk.
 

cam elle toe

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I've heard this point made before by others and it just doesn't make any sense at all...

You do NOT know what choices your children will make or what consequences they will bring before they are born. But God KNEW that Adam and Eve would sin before he created them. He knew that billions of people would suffer here on earth and burn in hell for eternity BEFORE he created them because of the choices his creations made.
God loves pigs infinitely more than man... let me explain. Pigs are NOT born into sin and do not need to accept Jesus into their heart to avoid an eternity in a burning lake of fire and torment once they die. There has never been a pig in history who died and was sentenced to an ETERNITY of suffering, A FUCKING ETERNITY!!! Yet billions upon billions of people will suffer this fate.

There is no way in hell you or anyone else can convince me that this god exists. The bible describes a god that makes Hitler look like mother Teresa.

Nobody, and I mean nobody deserves an eternity of suffering. Yet your perfect god has condemned billions of good people to it because they didn't play his game. A game where the rules were laid down 2000 years ago to some goat herders in the desert. That's sick, twisted and insane...

Im not trying to convince anyone....I dont know why you quoted me. (well, actually I DO know why you quoted me;),) For the record I am NOT a Christian....I dont like the word "Spiritualist" either....I have studied lots of different religions and have (over many years) come to my own "semi" conclusions. By that I mean...what makes the most sense to me...and an eternity of suffering for one measly little sin....does NOT make sense.
I dont believe in Hell and /or eternal suffering full stop. I think thats a man made/church concept to scare the masses into believing and supporting a (for the most part) corrupt church.

and I still like my analogy. No, we dont know exactly what our kids will do, but the point was we dont keep fixing every little thing for them....(unless your one of those molly coddling parents) we tell them at a certain point..."you made the mess/mistake....its up to YOU to fix it"
 

BornReady

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WHy is it up to God to fix it, when he didnt create the mess!

Without even realizing it, you're making God's point for Him. He wants us to step up and take responsibility for our own world and it's people...

So God shouldn't help these starving children because it's not his problem. Does that mean you wouldn't help them if you had the power because it's not your problem? Shame on you! Who gives a shit who caused the problem. If anyone can fix it then decency demands they do so for the children's sake.

I don't think the good people of this world are going to take responsibility for this world as long as they believe it's God's world. The place to start is to help people see either there is no God or if there is a God then he is not interested in this world or what happens to it. This is the realization that will motivate people to act imo.
 

cam elle toe

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So God shouldn't help these starving children because it's not his problem. Does that mean you wouldn't help them if you had the power because it's not your problem? Shame on you! Who gives a shit who caused the problem. If anyone can fix it then decency demands they do so for the children's sake.

I don't think the good people of this world are going to take responsibility for this world as long as they believe it's God's world. The place to start is to help people see either there is no God or if there is a God then he is not interested in this world or what happens to it. This is the realization that will motivate people to act imo.

Who is "they"...US? Do you think we should sit back and do nothing because "God should be fixing it"....yet you dont believe?

WE should be helping them. I think its a cop out to expect "him" to fix all the shit WE made....and how can he anyway if he doesnt exist;)....and its a cop out to say "HE" let them starve when people/governvents have the tools and means to help them, but choose instead to spend money on oil wars....space exploration etc.


I wont debate anymore on this, becasue as I said...Im not sure if there IS a God per se myself...I am still, and will always be...learning.:)
 

BornReady

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WE should be helping them. I think its a cop out to expect "him" to fix all the shit WE made....and how can he anyway if he doesnt exist;)

I agree with you. I don't expect God to fix anything for the very reason I don't believe in him. Once upon a time I did believe in God. My passion was saving the lost, not feeding starving children. My reasoning was simple (and horrible), if God didn't want children to starve then there would be no starving children. Somehow God must have a plan for all the suffering in the world. I just needed to focus my time on this earth in getting people to believe in God. One day I woke up and realized I was wasting my time. What people believe isn't important as long as they are trying to make this a better world. If someone's belief in God causes them to feed the hungry then great. But for me, that wasn't the case.
 

cam elle toe

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I agree with you. I don't expect God to fix anything for the very reason I don't believe in him. Once upon a time I did believe in God. My passion was saving the lost, not feeding starving children. My reasoning was simple (and horrible), if God didn't want children to starve then there would be no starving children. Somehow God must have a plan for all the suffering in the world. I just needed to focus my time on this earth in getting people to believe in God. One day I woke up and realized I was wasting my time. What people believe isn't important as long as they are trying to make this a better world. If someone's belief in God causes them to feed the hungry then great. But for me, that wasn't the case.

:clap:nod:;)
 

Tim

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Im not trying to convince anyone....I dont know why you quoted me. (well, actually I DO know why you quoted me;),)

Actually I quoted you because you are the one that brought up the child analogy. It wouldn't have made sense if my post was addressing this point and I quoted someone else.

and I still like my analogy. No, we dont know exactly what our kids will do, but the point was we dont keep fixing every little thing for them....(unless your one of those molly coddling parents) we tell them at a certain point..."you made the mess/mistake....its up to YOU to fix it"

Again, you are missing my point. You are basing this assumption on not knowing what your children will do and letting them make their own mistakes.
God knew that adam and eve would eat from the tree of knowledge before he ever tempted them with it. He knew that when they sinned it would damn the rest of us. Yet he didn't change a thing, he went ahead and created a flawed utopia.
 
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