Republican Judgement

[Accountable]

Then don't compare the two...

Why wouldn't a living wage work in this country?

Why wouldn't universal health care work in this country?

Why wouldn't mandatory paid vacation work in this country?

Because they require expanded government and reduced liberty.

 

[Johnfromokc]

What are the other variable expenditures of their Goverment? How many billions in aid to foreign countries do they provide? What is their tax structure?

Are you attempting to justify our foriegn aid as a reason to deny our own citizens a living wage and health care?

Do you think that minimum wage, healthcare and unemployment rates are the only variables needed to compare the two economies?

Do you think that we, the Great United States of America are so smart that we cannot learn something from countries like Australia and Germany?

Why don't you guys actually spend some time learning about countries who do right by their citizens?

This.

Like I said Johnnyboy, you're comparing apples and oranges.

No, you just do not have an answer. Go ahead, make your counter argument instead of just repeating "apples to oranges".

You can't keep bullshitting your way through life son. The next 40 years are going to pass so fast it is going to make your head spin. If your political ideals come true, you'll be elderly, broke, and wishing you had thought a little longer, researched a little more and made an informed decision about societal issues. I remember when I was your age wishing I could cash out of Social Security and invest it in the stock market which was booming at the time. Reality will set in faster than you think, and you will find yourself in that ripe old age of uninsurability, eagerly signing up for the social programs you so despise right now.

 

[Tim]

Because they require expanded government and reduced liberty.

Actually it would expand the liberty of everyone that enjoyed the new perks.

So you are worried about the liberty of the health insurance corporations, fuck the people? Got it

 

[CityGirl]

Because they require expanded government and reduced liberty.

I can attest to the fact that Aussies enjoy as many and more liberties than we do in this so called 'land of the free'.

 

[Accountable]

Actually it would expand the liberty of everyone that enjoyed the new perks.

So you are worried about the liberty of the health insurance corporations, fuck the people? Got it

If you'll recall, I've said repeatedly that we need to rein in insurance corporations. We also need to rein in government overreach.

 

[CityGirl]

Reality will set in faster than you think, and you will find yourself in that ripe old age of uninsurability, eagerly signing up for the social programs you so despise right now.

Ayn Rand comes to mind.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Really? So you believe that our economy would implode if it offered all those things? Lessee YOUR numbers.

Did I say that? Nope. Didn't say that. Pay a little better attention Mr. Government school teacher.

Because they require expanded government and reduced liberty.

OMG are you indoctrinated, lol. Do you really think we have greater liberty and less government than Australia? Do yourself a favor - take some of your overpaid government teacher salary and go spend your 3 months off next summer in OZ. Before you do, go to Google AU and start actually learning about it. The AU government has several excellent web pages that will give you easy to read facts about anything you wish to know.

 

[Tangerine]

Then don't compare the two...

Why wouldn't a living wage work in this country?

Why wouldn't universal health care work in this country?

Why wouldn't mandatory paid vacation work in this country?

Because our Government is already extremely over extended in unimaginable debt. All of these things would require additional massive Government expenditures at the very least, not to mention the tremendous burden the economy would face in the form of runaway inflation caused by the massive cost increases in the private sector.

 

[Tim]

Because our Government is already extremely over extended in unimaginable debt. All of these things would require additional massive Government expenditures at the very least, not to mention the tremendous burden the economy would face in the form of runaway inflation caused by the massive cost increases in the private sector.

Almost every business that provides health care benefits would see a drop in operating costs.
Those who would be bumped up in pay, would have more money to spend benefiting the businesses and would be spending much more in taxes helping to pay off the debt.

Why is it that whenever the debt comes up, nobody ever talks about working towards good paying jobs. The absolute fastest way to pay off the debt is to raise our GDP and the fastest way to do that is to get America back to work so they can spend again.
The more money Americans make, the better for everyone... there will be no losers in that. Business will boom when America has the money to buy their products and the debt will go away as the GDP goes up with consumer spending (Which is the largest part of GDP)
So why the reluctance to work towards demand side economics? Why are we still holding onto the failed policies of supply side economics? You can have all the supply in the world and it won't do any good if people don't have the money to spend. But allow Americans to earn a good wage and business WILL benefit...

 

[Tangerine]

Almost every business that provides health care benefits would see a drop in operating costs.
Those who would be bumped up in pay, would have more money to spend benefiting the businesses and would be spending much more in taxes helping to pay off the debt.

Why is it that whenever the debt comes up, nobody ever talks about working towards good paying jobs. The absolute fastest way to pay off the debt is to raise our GDP and the fastest way to do that is to get America back to work so they can spend again.
The more money Americans make, the better for everyone... there will be no losers in that. Business will boom when America has the money to buy their products and the debt will go away as the GDP goes up with consumer spending (Which is the largest part of GDP)
So why the reluctance to work towards demand side economics? Why are we still holding onto the failed policies of supply side economics? You can have all the supply in the world and it won't do any good if people don't have the money to spend. But allow Americans to earn a good wage and business WILL benefit...

Because the cost of the extra pay become inflation. It doesn't do any good to put more money in peoples pockets if their everyday expenses go up by the same or more.

And a drop in operating costs? By increasing wages AND increasing paid vacation? Your math doesn't sound like someone who's ever managed a payroll before.

 

[Tim]

Because the cost of the extra pay become inflation. It doesn't do any good to put more money in peoples pockets if their everyday expenses go up by the same or more.

And a drop in operating costs? By increasing wages AND increasing paid vacation? Your math doesn't sound like someone who's ever managed a payroll before.

I'll use the small company I work for as an example. We have 18 full time employees all of which make more than $15/hr... so payroll will not go up. All of us get medical and dental at an average cost of $1300/yr per person, fully funded by the company. That would be a savings of $23,400/yr for the company. We all get a minimum of 2 weeks paid vacation with some of us getting 3 or 4 weeks. But running a business you understand that giving your employees a vacation increases loyalty and motivation. You end up getting more production out of employees that aren't burnt out. And the company doesn't hire anyone to replace a vacationing employee, their workload is just split among the others while they are gone.

My company isn't unique. My employer would love to have health care costs removed from their books... even if it meant giving us a week or two more in vacation.

 

[Tim]

Because the cost of the extra pay become inflation. It doesn't do any good to put more money in peoples pockets if their everyday expenses go up by the same or more.

And that's not true about everything. Sure it will raise the prices of some things, but not everything. Again, look at the example of my business. Our overhead would go down, we could actually lower prices. Service industries like yours would need to up prices to cover the extra costs, but what percentage of your menu costs are actually contributed to labor costs?
If you doubled the minimum wage overnight, prices would not double. Labor is only a piece of operating costs.

 

[Tangerine]

And that's not true about everything. Sure it will raise the prices of some things, but not everything. Again, look at the example of my business. Our overhead would go down, we could actually lower prices. Service industries like yours would need to up prices to cover the extra costs, but what percentage of your menu costs are actually contributed to labor costs?
If you doubled the minimum wage overnight, prices would not double. Labor is only a piece of operating costs.

Labor is the single largest variable expense in foodservice. No one in my business makes as low as the current minimum now, but if you raised it to $15, then we would incur about a 35%-40% increase in labor costs. Of course it wouldn't double our prices, no one would ever pay $8 for a taco. But it probably would be at least the same 35%-40% cost increase to the menu. Because you also have to factor in that every single product we buy would also increase about the same amount, as the cost of picking, packing shipping etc would increase as well. In that same way, you cannot claim that your overhead would go down. Does your business purchase anything? The cost of all raw materials, all services like delivery and shipping, etc would ALL increase if the minimum wage were doubled. And a 30%+ price increase would most certainly decrease our sales. Less revenue would likely mean a few folks lose their jobs.

And of COURSE additional vacations cost every employer money, with the exception of any business where every single employee is salaried AND exempt from overtime. (Very rare) No, you don't have to HIRE extra people, but you have to pay DOUBLE the wages for the vacation in that you are paying someone to actually WORK the hours, while also paying the person on vacation to NOT work them. If the Government mandated 4 weeks paid vacation for every employee - add 1 months pay PER EMPLOYEE to your operating costs right off the top.

Question: Your $15+ an hour employees wouldn't decide that they needed a raise immediately if the minimum wage went up? Right now they make double or more the minimum. Would they be content if they were suddenly only making 10% above minimum? Let's not forget there are millions of union-contracted jobs in the marketplace whose wages are tied to minimum. If there is an increase, they are contractually guaranteed wage increases to scale with the minimum.

 

[cam elle toe]

$15./hr minimum wage?

CAMMIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can we move in? Not that she'll see this comment in this thread.

I see alllllll:cool
:ninja

I dont know anybody who gets a paltry $15 an hour...unless they are still under 18...and of course you can move in:thumbup

 

[Minor Axis]

We'll just have to let this lie.

They're no different from the Dems, partisan. You're just unwilling to see it. Please don't belittle yourself by playing the apologist now.

Apologist:a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.

Oh, so you're being an apologist for the Republican's by not condemning them?

 

[Accountable]

Do you really think we have greater liberty and less government than Australia?

Did I say that? Nope. Didn't say that. Pay a little better attention.

 

[Accountable]

Oh, so you're being an apologist for the Republican's by not condemning them?

Show me one time, and I'll either apologize or show how you took it out of context.

 

[Accountable]

Then don't compare the two...

Why wouldn't a living wage work in this country?

Why wouldn't universal health care work in this country?

Why wouldn't mandatory paid vacation work in this country?

"You ever been just fed up, at your breaking point? You think "You know what? Enough with the rat race and chasing some materialistic dream. I'm just going to chuck it all & sell my stuff, & move to some fishing village, drink Ouzo, eat grilled lamb all day, charm tourists with my lusty full-of-life attitude while subsisting on a pensioner's stipend."

Sounds nice, and it is. Now what would happen if an entire country had that idea at the same time? I present to you Greece 2011!"
​

Jon Stewart, June 22, 2011

 

[MoonOwl]

I see alllllll:cool
:ninja

I dont know anybody who gets a paltry $15 an hour...unless they are still under 18...and of course you can move in:thumbup

SwamiWoman!

I know you don't do politics but as someone who lives over there can you detail for us (just a bit) some of the things mentioned here? Namely this quote from John:

"Why can Australia provide it's people with universal health care, a $15 per hour minimum wage, 4 weeks paid vacation with a vacation premium pay, and have a 4.9% unemployment rate."

I would assume you're paying higher taxes than us?

I've read that Sweden's taxes are high. BUT you get many things back as a citizen for those dollars. Like healthcare, long vacations, higher education, extended maternity-leave, etc. That there are countries that actually use their tax dollars for their citizens and not for war, bailouts & foreign nations. (Novel concept)

I understand that we as children are raised to believe we live in the best nation in the world. Funny. When I look around now, I don't see the nation I grew up in. All one has to do is look at our airports now yet we are expected to remember 'they hate us for our freedoms'.

So MsCam, if you could detail a bit about your taxes and the benefits you get for them I'd be grateful :ninja As one who cannot afford health insurance any longer I'd be curious about what having 'free' healthcare is like? Here, we're put under the impression that y'all languish for years w/illness waiting to get procedures from quackish doctors. Because of course, we have the best health care in the world. I can see why our politicians say that. They have great plans that WE pay for. Cuz of course, it's good to be King/Queen. Or at least have $650/mo for a $5k deductible. Interesting that in the greatest country in the world I had to make a choice between putting food on the table & keeping the lights on in the roof over our head or health care for three.

So yeah... Tell us please Then again, I can understand if you don't elaborate. Don't want boat-loads of peeps trying to get to your shores for a taste of the good life we're supposed to be enjoying here. :ninja

I greatly appreciate your offer to bunk us up. As I watch the nation I love fall apart it's becoming a very attractive proposition to move to where our work efforts actually buy us a quality of life like the one we all used to enjoy.

XXOO
MO

 

[Johnfromokc]

Why is it that whenever the debt comes up, nobody ever talks about working towards good paying jobs. The absolute fastest way to pay off the debt is to raise our GDP and the fastest way to do that is to get America back to work so they can spend again.

The reason is because they listen to hours and hours of right wing propaganda each week and have become programmed by it to fight against the very ideas that would help them. Although they deny it, this is the truth of the matter. Even those "local" talk show hosts they listen to get their information from Drudge report and Limbaugh. There's a reason they all repeat the same points yet deny listening to Limbaugh and Hannity.

The more money Americans make, the better for everyone... there will be no losers in that. Business will boom when America has the money to buy their products and the debt will go away as the GDP goes up with consumer spending (Which is the largest part of GDP)
So why the reluctance to work towards demand side economics? Why are we still holding onto the failed policies of supply side economics? You can have all the supply in the world and it won't do any good if people don't have the money to spend. But allow Americans to earn a good wage and business WILL benefit...

This is the simple truth. Why is this so hard for some people to accept? I just explained it. It speaks to the sorry state of our education system as well that so many learn their economics from the corprotocracy media outlets instead of in high school and college.