Republican Judgement

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Tim

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I honestly don't care who has wealth or how much. I am concerned with my own life and my own existence. I don't see how I have, in any way, the right to concern myself with how much money any other person has. Fair playing field? I have no expectation of such. I am comfortable with the fact that many, many other people will be wealthier than I in my lifetime. Exactly the same way that I am comfortable with the fact that many, many other people will be more attractive, more athletic, more intelligent, better dancers and muscians, than I will - etc. etc. etc. I don't feel any need to punish them, or take from them the things that they have under the guise of being "fair".

I spend my time and energy trying to remain in control of the things that are within my power to do so.

I don't want to "punish" the wealthy... but here is just one example of why it DOES concern you.

Take a look at your cell phone bill, cable bill, and high speed internet bill. Add them together and it should average around $300/month. Do you know why you pay that much? Well I'll tell you... the game has been rigged that these few multinational corporations that control the airways, cables and fiber optics charge a premium without allowing any competition.
Take this exact same scenario in France. The government decided that the airways, cables and fiber optic lines belong to the people, that no company will control them. This gave hundreds of companies the ability to use the infrastructure and compete for your business. The same service we get here for $300/month they get for $40/month on average.
Their companies still make good money, but it's spread out over many different companies.

And this is just one example of how it DOES affect you and the rest of us. We don't truly have a free market here, like I said, the game has been rigged
 
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Tim

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And there's the circular argument. No one can get rich anymore, but you are rich, therefore you can't have gotten it fairly, therefore you don't deserve it, because no one can get rich anymore.

You seriously got that out of my post?

Go reread it and this time concentrate. It wasn't even a partisan post.... seriously
 

Tangerine

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Take a look at your cell phone bill, cable bill, and high speed internet bill. Add them together and it should average around $300/month. Do you know why you pay that much? Well I'll tell you... the game has been rigged that these few multinational corporations that control the airways, cables and fiber optics charge a premium without allowing any competition.
Take this exact same scenario in France. The government decided that the airways, cables and fiber optic lines belong to the people, that no company will control them. This gave hundreds of companies the ability to use the infrastructure and compete for your business. The same service we get here for $300/month they get for $40/month on average.
Their companies still make good money, but it's spread out over many different companies.

How does any of this have anything to do with the assertation that 400 families hold the same wealth as the bottom 150 million?
 

Tim

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How does any of this have anything to do with the assertation that 400 families hold the same wealth as the bottom 150 million?

It all goes back to the fact that the middle class is being destroyed. I am not envious of the top 400 families... I am shocked that our middle class has been so destroyed over the years that our wealth amounts to nothing anymore.

I believe that this country will only survive if the middle class is dragged out of the gutter. And it's not because we are lazy. The middle class is producing more than ever before and are working longer and harder hours. And while the wealth is being migrated up, the middle class is slipping further and further behind.

I just want a fair game again. I want hard work to be rewarded.
 

Accountable

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You seriously got that out of my post?

Go reread it and this time concentrate. It wasn't even a partisan post.... seriously
Partisan? I didn't mention anything about being partisan. But yeh, I seriously got that out of your post:



I would love to believe that if you worked your ass off that you can get rich in this country... but that isn't the case anymore, well at least it's not the norm. The game has been so stacked against it, you're better off playing the lottery.
No one can get rich anymore,
I would say that at this point more wealth is a reward than earned.
but you are rich, therefore you can't have gotten it fairly,
Take the bottom half of the entire country and their combined wealth doesn't surpass the top 400 families in the US. And you think we still have a fair playing field?
therefore you don't deserve it,
but to get rich? The odds are against it.
because no one can get rich anymore.
 

Tim

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Partisan? I didn't mention anything about being partisan. But yeh, I seriously got that out of your post:



I would love to believe that if you worked your ass off that you can get rich in this country... but that isn't the case anymore, well at least it's not the norm. The game has been so stacked against it, you're better off playing the lottery.
No one can get rich anymore,
I would say that at this point more wealth is a reward than earned.
but you are rich, therefore you can't have gotten it fairly,
Take the bottom half of the entire country and their combined wealth doesn't surpass the top 400 families in the US. And you think we still have a fair playing field?
therefore you don't deserve it,
but to get rich? The odds are against it.
because no one can get rich anymore.

Reading comprehension isn't your friend tonight, is it?

Like I said before, go reread it again and this time pay attention to the wording.

Terms like "not the norm" and "the odds are against it" show you that I do believe it's possible to make yourself a fortune, but it's NOT THE NORM... no matter how hard you bust your ass because the odds are stacked against you.

NO WHERE did I imply that you cannot work hard and get rich in this country. The entire point of my post which went right over your head was that the odds have been stacked against you making it less likely. There were no absolutes in my post as you are implying.
 

Tangerine

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Reading comprehension isn't your friend tonight, is it?

Like I said before, go reread it again and this time pay attention to the wording.

Terms like "not the norm" and "the odds are against it" show you that I do believe it's possible to make yourself a fortune, but it's NOT THE NORM... no matter how hard you bust your ass because the odds are stacked against you.

NO WHERE did I imply that you cannot work hard and get rich in this country. The entire point of my post which went right over your head was that the odds have been stacked against you making it less likely. There were no absolutes in my post as you are implying.

When in the history of this country - or any civilization throughout time, for that matter - has it been the NORM for people to make a fortune? And what defines a fortune?
 

Alien Allen

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Reading comprehension isn't your friend tonight, is it?

Like I said before, go reread it again and this time pay attention to the wording.

Terms like "not the norm" and "the odds are against it" show you that I do believe it's possible to make yourself a fortune, but it's NOT THE NORM... no matter how hard you bust your ass because the odds are stacked against you.

NO WHERE did I imply that you cannot work hard and get rich in this country. The entire point of my post which went right over your head was that the odds have been stacked against you making it less likely. There were no absolutes in my post as you are implying.

But you said one would have better odds winning the lottery. The chances of being rich versus winning the lottery are no where near similar. Thousands and thousands more get rich than there are lottery winners.
 

Accountable

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Reading comprehension isn't your friend tonight, is it?

Like I said before, go reread it again and this time pay attention to the wording.

Terms like "not the norm" and "the odds are against it" show you that I do believe it's possible to make yourself a fortune, but it's NOT THE NORM... no matter how hard you bust your ass because the odds are stacked against you.

NO WHERE did I imply that you cannot work hard and get rich in this country. The entire point of my post which went right over your head was that the odds have been stacked against you making it less likely. There were no absolutes in my post as you are implying.
You stated quite clearly that you do not believe hard work, even working your ass off, will get you rich - and for it to happen was as rare as winning the lottery, a game of chance and luck. You also stated that wealth is a reward, not earned. These are your statements, not something I made up.

You put in a couple of weak caveats so that if someone points out an Oprah you can say 'exception to the rule' and fool yourself into believing that that makes you objective.

The income tax is not going away. Charging an equal percentage of income across the board is a fair way to tax. Higher income earners pay higher tax. Why isn't that enough?
 

Johnfromokc

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Note how John addressed your post oh-so directly ... NOT! :24:

I'm sorry, but his question was so convoluted and ridiculous as to not make any sense - like most of you guys Boortz-bot parroting. I was trying to take it in the direction of getting you guys to actually understand who actually pays the bills, and provides the labor that allows the wealthy to become wealthy and stay wealthy.

I hope you get your conservo-libertarian-bot wish soon and the great state of Texas cuts your pay in half, dissolves your pension and cuts out your health insurance. Keep on waging war against the middle class.

I've never seen a worse case of cranial rectumitus in my life. You guys are amazing.

Careful what you wish for Mr. Government employee teacher:

189794_1620978173503_1507914120_31363064_1690154_n.jpg
 

Panacea

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Is anyone as equally outraged at the insane salaries commanded by actors, musicians, athletes, etc?

I think lots of people are overpaid and underpaid in our society, I do. It's hard to accept, and it sucks to know I am part of the reason the system stays that way (by watching sports and movies). A bad feeling.

In many cases they make 10 X the money as the CEO's and Hedge Fund Managers that are so often referred to in talking points.

I think this is because talking points come from media (actors, musicians, athletes), and you can't bite the hand that feeds you by bashing them.

yet almost exclusively, these people are vocal and active supporters of the Left.

I think this is true, as they seem to make it a point not to bite the hand that feeds them, if only publicly. CEO's and Hedge Fund Managers do not seem to.

Yet I don't hear any great cry from them to "vote against their own interests" and tax themselves back into the middle class. At the same time, their Party claims they are among those who can "afford to pay more." I wonder why we haven't seen any of those wealthy activists announcing that they are sending all of their cash beyond what they need for a comfortable living on to the Federal Goverment to help fund all of the entitlement programs they hold so dearly?

Because it seems no one is willing to part with their money, which is why I believe a charity-only system of social safety nets doesn't work, sadly.
 

retro

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I'm sorry, but his question was so convoluted and ridiculous as to not make any sense - like most of you guys Boortz-bot parroting. I was trying to take it in the direction of getting you guys to actually understand who actually pays the bills, and provides the labor that allows the wealthy to become wealthy and stay wealthy.

I hope you get your conservo-libertarian-bot wish soon and the great state of Texas cuts your pay in half, dissolves your pension and cuts out your health insurance. Keep on waging war against the middle class.

I've never seen a worse case of cranial rectumitus in my life. You guys are amazing.

Careful what you wish for Mr. Government employee teacher:

189794_1620978173503_1507914120_31363064_1690154_n.jpg

So... you didn't like the question, so you didn't answer it. Bravo. :clap

I also love your incredible attitude of superiority... as though your opinion and viewpoint is the only one in the world that matters and people that disagree with you are drool covered morons. It's amusing if nothing else, and more than a little cute.

All classes pay the bills for most businesses. That's the point of an economy based on capitalism... you create a product that people are willing to pay for, and you make money from selling it. Some businesses make lots of money off of the middle class, other businesses make lots of money off of the "rich", and still others make their money from all classes. Get the point there? If you raise taxes on businesses and the "rich" that own/run them, they're going to raise the price of their product, thus taking more money away from the middle class. It's called indirect taxation, and I know I brought it up either earlier in this discussion or in another thread. Yet another point that you didn't like and summarily dismissed... big shocker there.

You remind me of my four year old, he yells and screams when he gets told something that he doesn't like, or he simply ignores it. That seems to be your modus operandi. When people say things that you don't like, you either let loose these vitriolic diatribes filled with nothing more than ad hominems designed to belittle those that you disagree with. They're practically temper tantrums, and wholly unbecoming of someone that's supposedly trying to have an actual discussion. :thumbup
 

Johnfromokc

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So... you didn't like the question, so you didn't answer it. Bravo.

Yup. But you know what is really funny? I put forth verifiable economic data to all of you talk radio parrots and you ignored 100% of it.

Yes indeed, I chose not to answer a silly, oft repeated bullshit question about professional athletes, and you guys ignore facts and statistics you cannot refute.

You guys just ignore statistics, fact and logic and go right back to repeating right wing radio talking points as if repeating the same regurgitated garbage over and over again will somehow make it true the 50th time you repeat it.

This is somewhat appropriate, except in this case I ignored an irrelevant question, and you guys ignored facts and data that prove you wrong repeatedly:

Pot_Calling_the_Kettle_Black_T-Shirt.png


I also love your incredible attitude of superiority... as though your opinion and viewpoint is the only one in the world that matters and people that disagree with you are drool covered morons. It's amusing if nothing else, and more than a little cute.

Still waiting for any of you conservo-libertarian-parroters to refute any of the numbers I have posted. You ignored all of them, yet you think you can call me out for laughing off yet another one of you guys parrot posts? Please.

Superior? Well, if you call putting up economic data that you can't refute superior, ok, I'll wear that badge.
All classes pay the bills for most businesses. That's the point of an economy based on capitalism... you create a product that people are willing to pay for, and you make money from selling it. Some businesses make lots of money off of the middle class, other businesses make lots of money off of the "rich", and still others make their money from all classes. Get the point there?

Do you get the point that without labor, there is no capital?

Do you get the point that there are millions more of working class people than there are billionaires and multi-millionaires?

Do you not understand that a large, vibrant, well paid middle class is required to have a sound, stable economy?

How much more food do billionaires and multimillionaires eat than a minimum wage worker?

How much of those trillions of $$$ that are sitting on the sidelines is circulating and helping the economy? 100% of the minimum wage workers earnings go back into the economy in most cases.

Tell me why it is these benevolent multi-millionaires and multi-billionaires accumulate more and more billions and sit on them and complain about taxes, which are the lowest in our lifetimes?

Tell me why you think that if these people are sitting on trillions during the lowest taxation in our lifetimes that they will suddenly un-ass those trillions if we lower their taxes and shift even more of the burden to the working class?

If you raise taxes on businesses and the "rich" that own/run them, they're going to raise the price of their product, thus taking more money away from the middle class. It's called indirect taxation, and I know I brought it up either earlier in this discussion or in another thread. Yet another point that you didn't like and summarily dismissed... big shocker there.

WTF? Are you afraid if the wealthiest actually pay the marginal tax rate, you might have to pay an extra $1.00 for your super-sized-lard-ass burger, fries and soda pop?

If your economic theory worked, then why isn't our economy booming right now? Middle class wages are lower than ever. The middle class is shrinking. Jobs are shipped overseas to the slave labor markets every day. Almost everything in Wal-Mart is made in China, their employees earn minimum wage and get no beneifits like health care. Conservative-libertarian utopia right? Why isn't it working? According to your theory, let's get our working wages down to the China model and get this economy booming again, right? You ever actually think about the talk radio shit you repeat?

If minimum wage was increased, and the wealthiest were required to pay the marginal tax rate instead of hiding their income in capital gains, there would indeed be some inflation, but there would be more money circulating in the total economy in the hands of the middle and lower classes. The rich would still remain rich, but the lives of the middle class and the lower earning classes would be vastly improved.

Answer me this:

Why can Australia have universal health care, 4 weeks paid vacation, $15 per hour minimum wage, and 4.9% unemployment, but if the U.S. trys to raise the minimum wage from $7.25 to $8.25, the useful idiots on the right come out and predict economic disaster.

Explain that. I know you'll walk away and ignore it though. It's the hypocritical way of people who get their economic education from the Limbaugh/Beck university.




You remind me of my four year old, he yells and screams when he gets told something that he doesn't like, or he simply ignores it. That seems to be your modus operandi.

When people say things that you don't like, you either let loose these vitriolic diatribes filled with nothing more than ad hominems designed to belittle those that you disagree with. They're practically temper tantrums, and wholly unbecoming of someone that's supposedly trying to have an actual discussion.

Wow. You look in the mirror lately?

Show me you are not a weak minded talk radio repeater, and go back and answer the questions I asked you. Lets see you post some numbers to support your arguments instead of the same old shit you guys repeat over and over.

And try to learn some new words besides "ad hominems" (used incorrectly BTW) "straw man" and "non sequitur". You guys are like a grammatical Larry Moe and Curley - like little kids that learned a new word and keep repeating it.
 

retro

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Thanks for proving my point beyond anything I could have said. :thumbup :24: you've had verifiable facts presented to you. But they don't fit in your tiny box of beliefs, so you dismiss and/or belittle them.

Ad hominem is used correctly in this context, but thanks for playing. Oh, and I've listened to Beck for all of about 30 minutes in my lifetime... The guy is a nutjob. I havent listened to Rush beyond what I hear when I drive to work if I'm late, and I hear Hannity sometimes for five minutes on my way back from work if I happen to lead early. But, you keep on thinking that we're all a bunch of drooling idiots that parrot talk radio. I listen to local talk radio... The kind that predominately focuses on my area's local issues.

You seem to be completely unwilling to admit that inflation exists, that indirect taxation occurs, or anything else beyond your own personal crusade against people that you deem to have too much money.
 

Johnfromokc

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Thanks for proving my point beyond anything I could have said. :thumbup :24: you've had verifiable facts presented to you. But they don't fit in your tiny box of beliefs, so you dismiss and/or belittle them.

Ad hominem is used correctly in this context, but thanks for playing. Oh, and I've listened to Beck for all of about 30 minutes in my lifetime... The guy is a nutjob. I havent listened to Rush beyond what I hear when I drive to work if I'm late, and I hear Hannity sometimes for five minutes on my way back from work if I happen to lead early. But, you keep on thinking that we're all a bunch of drooling idiots that parrot talk radio. I listen to local talk radio... The kind that predominately focuses on my area's local issues.

You seem to be completely unwilling to admit that inflation exists, that indirect taxation occurs, or anything else beyond your own personal crusade against people that you deem to have too much money.

Total bullshit response, ignoring the primary topic:

Answer the question Retro:

Why can Australia have universal health care, 4 weeks paid vacation, $15 per hour minimum wage, and 4.9% unemployment, but if the U.S. trys to raise the minimum wage from $7.25 to $8.25, the useful idiots on the right come out and predict economic disaster.

Why Retro? Why?

Answer the qusetion. Don't dodge and parrot.
 

retro

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I didn't ignore anything... you didn't make it clear that was your primary topic. I responded to what I felt like responding to, just like you do. I'll get around to the other one if/when I feel like it.
 

Johnfromokc

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I didn't ignore anything... you didn't make it clear that was your primary topic. I responded to what I felt like responding to, just like you do. I'll get around to the other one if/when I feel like it.

No you won't. You will ignore it like the dozen other questions that shot holes in your conservo-libertarian-bot talking points.

You'll either come around to the truth one day, or continue attempting to baffle us with bullshit. I expect the latter.
 

retro

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No you won't. You will ignore it like the dozen other questions that shot holes in your conservo-libertarian-bot talking points.

You'll either come around to the truth one day, or continue attempting to baffle us with bullshit. I expect the latter.

The truth as you see it. I didn't realize that your point of view was the only one. Talk about being narrow minded. You dismiss every point of view that doesn't fit with your own limited one. All you're parroting are liberal talking points, why are you so incensed that people (in your estimation) are parroting conservative ones? Oh, that's because they dare to disagree with your oh so very holy and obviously infallible opinions. :24:
 

Johnfromokc

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The truth as you see it. I didn't realize that your point of view was the only one. Talk about being narrow minded. You dismiss every point of view that doesn't fit with your own limited one. All you're parroting are liberal talking points, why are you so incensed that people (in your estimation) are parroting conservative ones? Oh, that's because they dare to disagree with your oh so very holy and obviously infallible opinions. :24:

Lets see the numbers to back up your bullshit retro. Answer the question:

Why can Australia have universal health care, 4 weeks paid vacation, $15 per hour minimum wage, and 4.9% unemployment, but if the U.S. trys to raise the minimum wage from $7.25 to $8.25, the useful idiots on the right come out and predict economic disaster.

Why Retro? Why?

Answer the qusetion. Don't dodge and parrot.....again.
 

retro

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I already told you that I'll get around to answering that question if and when I feel like it. Please, continue with your temper tantrum though, it's quite entertaining. You're nothing more than a liberal-bot parrot.
 
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