Republican Judgement

[Minor Axis]

except for Minor.

This does nothing to defend your position against Tim's arguments.

 

[Accountable]

This does nothing to defend your position against Tim's arguments.

I took no position against Tim's argument with that statement. I was only pointing out that he was incorrect. Does every syllable have to defend a position?? I really don't understand this adversarial bent some of you insist on taking. Rich people are not the enemy and are not inherently evil. To treat them as such promotes antagonism that simply isn't necessary.

 

[BadBoy]

I took no position against Tim's argument with that statement. I was only pointing out that he was incorrect. Does every syllable have to defend a position?? I really don't understand this adversarial bent some of you insist on taking. Rich people are not the enemy and are not inherently evil. To treat them as such promotes antagonism that simply isn't necessary.

Not only that, but it defeats Capitalism at its core. Make more money so we can "steal" it from you because that's fair.

 

[Minor Axis]

I took no position against Tim's argument with that statement. I was only pointing out that he was incorrect. Does every syllable have to defend a position?? I really don't understand this adversarial bent some of you insist on taking. Rich people are not the enemy and are not inherently evil. To treat them as such promotes antagonism that simply isn't necessary.

I don't believe rich people are inherently evil. I believe they move and push our politicians towards a system that benefits them and because they have undue influence due to their wealth, they frequently get their way. Raw Capitalism* sucks because historically a small number of wealthy people get to lord over the average people. The system is skewed towards the rich by virtue of their economic clout. If you are smart and apply yourself you do deserve to be rewarded. Our difference of opinion has to do with how much reward they deserve. You belive their reward should be unlimited. I disagree.

I am adversarial towards the Republican Party because they are the epitome of "rich" worship. They are not good as individuals or as a political party because they are hostile to average citizens. They can't afford any social program that costs them anything even when they have excess finances at their disposal.

*I'm not implying we live under raw capitalism.

Check out this The Onion Video on the poor rich who are not able to keep up with the super rich. Weep for them because they are special human beings.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I really don't understand this adversarial bent some of you insist on taking. Rich people are not the enemy and are not inherently evil. To treat them as such promotes antagonism that simply isn't necessary.

And I don't understand "this adversarial bent some of you insist on taking" against wage earners, the middle class and your own best interests.

You guys demonize your own friends, family and neighbors in favor of high earners that don't give a fuck about you. That's right, they don't give a fuck about you. They would push even more of their tax burden on you as their income increases - and you guys defend this. You guys are useful idiots to the monied classes.

Now lets get something straight right out of the box. By advocating for higher wages and universal health care for the working classes, no one here is attempting to "punish the rich" or "punish achievement" or any other of those tired old talk radio cliches you guys keep repeating.

If the minimum wage was moved to $15 per hour, with universal health care for all Americans, and people who earn over $106,800 had to pay FICA on 100% of their income, and the marginal tax rate rate was moved to 40%, and capital gains used to hide income was declared income, what do you think would happen?

This would happen:

1. The rich would STILL be rich.

2. The middle class would be much larger.

3. More money would be made by middle class small businesses because the working class would have more money to spend.

It is really that freaking simple. Why is it you guys cannot understand this?

It is an economic FACT that the more currency that is circulated, the more vibrant the economy.

It is an economic FACT that the more trillions that are held in reserve (hoarded) by the wealthiest creates stagnation.

Can't wait to hear the Boortz-Bot replies.

 

[Tim]

Last year average workers pay increased .5% If you adjust for inflation that's a 1% loss.
During the same period, CEO pay increased 23%

Last year the top 400 families held more wealth than the bottom 1,500,000 families in the US.

Under Reagan, the interest we paid on the national debt was 5% of GDP, today it's under 2%... where's the crisis?

The US government is smaller today per capita than it's been in over 50 years.

If you remove the cost of the wars we are engaged in, the US government is spending less today as a percentage of GDP than in the last 70 years.

 

[Tangerine]

Is anyone as equally outraged at the insane salaries commanded by actors, musicians, athletes, etc? In many cases they make 10 X the money as the CEO's and Hedge Fund Managers that are so often referred to in talking points. yet almost exclusively, these people are vocal and active supporters of the Left. Yet I don't hear any great cry from them to "vote against their own interests" and tax themselves back into the middle class. At the same time, their Party claims they are among those who can "afford to pay more." I wonder why we haven't seen any of those wealthy activists announcing that they are sending all of their cash beyond what they need for a comfortable living on to the Federal Goverment to help fund all of the entitlement programs they hold so dearly?

 

[Johnfromokc]

Is anyone as equally outraged at the insane salaries commanded by actors, musicians, athletes, etc? In many cases they make 10 X the money as the CEO's and Hedge Fund Managers that are so often referred to in talking points. yet almost exclusively, these people are vocal and active supporters of the Left. Yet I don't hear any great cry from them to "vote against their own interests" and tax themselves back into the middle class. At the same time, their Party claims they are among those who can "afford to pay more." I wonder why we haven't seen any of those wealthy activists announcing that they are sending all of their cash beyond what they need for a comfortable living on to the Federal Goverment to help fund all of the entitlement programs they hold so dearly?

You're a Chef from Atlanta according to your profile I see. I grew up there and spent most of my life in the Atlanta metro. I wonder if I've patronized the establishment you cook in?

Out of curiosity, what type of patrons frequent your restaurant? Do the bulk of customers come from working class income earners, or the millioniare class?

 

[Minor Axis]

Is anyone as equally outraged at the insane salaries commanded by actors, musicians, athletes, etc? In many cases they make 10 X the money as the CEO's and Hedge Fund Managers that are so often referred to in talking points. yet almost exclusively, these people are vocal and active supporters of the Left. Yet I don't hear any great cry from them to "vote against their own interests" and tax themselves back into the middle class. At the same time, their Party claims they are among those who can "afford to pay more." I wonder why we haven't seen any of those wealthy activists announcing that they are sending all of their cash beyond what they need for a comfortable living on to the Federal Goverment to help fund all of the entitlement programs they hold so dearly?

They would be covered by my income cap/high tax rates above $1M annual. Are artists behind the move to lower rich people's taxes because it's just not fair (higher taxes for the wealthy) or are they just the unintended beneficiaries of GOPper philosophy?

 

[retro]

You're a Chef from Atlanta according to your profile I see. I grew up there and spent most of my life in the Atlanta metro. I wonder if I've patronized the establishment you cook in?

Out of curiosity, what type of patrons frequent your restaurant? Do the bulk of customers come from working class income earners, or the millioniare class?

I have to say that I'm impressed with the way that you deftly avoided actually answering the questions than tang posed. I'm sure you'll let loose with another ad hominem laced rant in response to me, but I just had to give you a thumbs up. :thumbup

 

[Tangerine]

You're a Chef from Atlanta according to your profile I see. I grew up there and spent most of my life in the Atlanta metro. I wonder if I've patronized the establishment you cook in?

Out of curiosity, what type of patrons frequent your restaurant? Do the bulk of customers come from working class income earners, or the millioniare class?

Some of both. The millionaire class (I hate that class-warfare-esque term - how about we say upper-middle or wealthy) does include the three gentlemen that own the restaurant group that I work for. They have a huge portion of their worth tied up in our company. I am quite happy that they have been successful enough to continue to re-invest and grow our company. I have certainly reaped the benefits along the way.

 

[Tangerine]

They would be covered by my income cap/high tax rates above $1M annual. Are artists behind the move to lower rich people's taxes because it's just not fair (higher taxes for the wealthy) or are they just the unintended beneficiaries of GOPper philosophy?

Or perhaps, like MANY people in our society, they want to hold dearly to their own political beliefs to the extent that it does not affect them personally?

 

[Johnfromokc]

Some of both. The millionaire class (I hate that class-warfare-esque term - how about we say upper-middle or wealthy) does include the three gentlemen that own the restaurant group that I work for.

Why do you hate that descriptive term? It's an economic fact of life. The only "warfare" being waged is between the middle class. The mean annual wage for chefs in Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta according to BLS is $37,820. http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes351011.htm#(2)

I'm sure you earn more than the mean wage, but why do you support policies that economically harm other workers in your income range? I'm just trying to figure you guys out.

As to the economic demographics of your restaurant clientel, break it down a little more please. 50% millionaire class, 50% working class? 90/10? 80/20?

What burb of Atlanta is the store in? Buckhead? Five-Points? Outside of Fulton county? That will give me a really good idea of the income ranges of your customers. Why not name it and give 'em a free plug here on the forum. I'll be back in Atlanta in December and might possibly drop a Ben Franklin or two there.

They have a huge portion of their worth tied up in our company. I am quite happy that they have been successful enough to continue to re-invest and grow our company. I have certainly reaped the benefits along the way.

That's great, and I'm happy for you and them, contrary to what you apparently think. Often successful restaurant owners are actually middle class small business owners, struggling along, while others are millionaires from other means looking for profitable establishiments to purchase or invest in. It's all good either way - but they make their real money from the working class folk who earn $30-100K who enjoy an occaisional night out for a nice meal and a movie after a stressful week at work.

So who pays the bills?

 

[Accountable]

I don't believe rich people are inherently evil. I believe they move and push our politicians towards a system that benefits them and because they have undue influence due to their wealth, they frequently get their way. Raw Capitalism* sucks because historically a small number of wealthy people get to lord over the average people. The system is skewed towards the rich by virtue of their economic clout. If you are smart and apply yourself you do deserve to be rewarded. Our difference of opinion has to do with how much reward they deserve. You belive their reward should be unlimited. I disagree.

We'll just have to let this lie.

I am adversarial towards the Republican Party because they are the epitome of "rich" worship. They are not good as individuals or as a political party because they are hostile to average citizens. They can't afford any social program that costs them anything even when they have excess finances at their disposal.

They're no different from the Dems, partisan. You're just unwilling to see it. Please don't belittle yourself by playing the apologist now.

 

[Accountable]

They would be covered by my income cap/high tax rates above $1M annual. Are artists behind the move to lower rich people's taxes because it's just not fair (higher taxes for the wealthy) or are they just the unintended beneficiaries of GOPper philosophy?

They don't have to keep their money. They can voluntarily give any or all of it to the government. How many do, I wonder.

 

[Accountable]

Is anyone as equally outraged at the insane salaries commanded by actors, musicians, athletes, etc? In many cases they make 10 X the money as the CEO's and Hedge Fund Managers that are so often referred to in talking points. yet almost exclusively, these people are vocal and active supporters of the Left. Yet I don't hear any great cry from them to "vote against their own interests" and tax themselves back into the middle class. At the same time, their Party claims they are among those who can "afford to pay more." I wonder why we haven't seen any of those wealthy activists announcing that they are sending all of their cash beyond what they need for a comfortable living on to the Federal Goverment to help fund all of the entitlement programs they hold so dearly?

Note how John addressed your post oh-so directly ... NOT! :24:

 

[Tangerine]

If you are smart and apply yourself you do deserve to be rewarded. Our difference of opinion has to do with how much reward they deserve. You belive their reward should be unlimited. I disagree.

I think the MAJOR difference in viewpoints is that some of you believe that their wealth is some type of a "reward." Others choose to believe it was EARNED. There is a major, major difference.

 

[Tim]

I think the MAJOR difference in viewpoints is that some of you believe that their wealth is some type of a "reward." Others choose to believe it was EARNED. There is a major, major difference.

I would say that at this point more wealth is a reward than earned.

I would love to believe that if you worked your ass off that you can get rich in this country... but that isn't the case anymore, well at least it's not the norm. The game has been so stacked against it, you're better off playing the lottery.

The wealth in this country is being concentrated more and more into fewer hands. Just remember that little fact that the top 400 families have more wealth than half of the country... that's over 150,000,000 people. Think about that for a moment... Take the bottom half of the entire country and their combined wealth doesn't surpass the top 400 families in the US. And you think we still have a fair playing field?
Just look at any industry and you will see that it's controlled by a few multinational corporations. How do you compete with that? They have spent billions lobbying congress to pass laws in their favor.
I think you can still work your ass off and squeak out a good living... but to get rich? The odds are against it.

 

[Tangerine]

The wealth in this country is being concentrated more and more into fewer hands. Just remember that little fact that the top 400 families have more wealth than half of the country... that's over 150,000,000 people. Think about that for a moment... Take the bottom half of the entire country and their combined wealth doesn't surpass the top 400 families in the US. And you think we still have a fair playing field?

I honestly don't care who has wealth or how much. I am concerned with my own life and my own existence. I don't see how I have, in any way, the right to concern myself with how much money any other person has. Fair playing field? I have no expectation of such. I am comfortable with the fact that many, many other people will be wealthier than I in my lifetime. Exactly the same way that I am comfortable with the fact that many, many other people will be more attractive, more athletic, more intelligent, better dancers and muscians, than I will - etc. etc. etc. I don't feel any need to punish them, or take from them the things that they have under the guise of being "fair".

I spend my time and energy trying to remain in control of the things that are within my power to do so.

 

[Accountable]

I would say that at this point more wealth is a reward than earned.

I would love to believe that if you worked your ass off that you can get rich in this country... but that isn't the case anymore, well at least it's not the norm. The game has been so stacked against it, you're better off playing the lottery.

The wealth in this country is being concentrated more and more into fewer hands. Just remember that little fact that the top 400 families have more wealth than half of the country... that's over 150,000,000 people. Think about that for a moment... Take the bottom half of the entire country and their combined wealth doesn't surpass the top 400 families in the US. And you think we still have a fair playing field?
Just look at any industry and you will see that it's controlled by a few multinational corporations. How do you compete with that? They have spent billions lobbying congress to pass laws in their favor.
I think you can still work your ass off and squeak out a good living... but to get rich? The odds are against it.

And there's the circular argument. No one can get rich anymore, but you are rich, therefore you can't have gotten it fairly, therefore you don't deserve it, because no one can get rich anymore.