Republican Judgement

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Minor Axis

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Republicans walk out of Budget Talks23Jun2011

Cantor (R) said the group had reached an "impasse" because Republicans oppose any and all tax hikes, while Democrats say they are a necessary in a balanced attempt at deficit reduction.
Is this the kind of Congressional leadership you conservatives want to have? As a leader of the GOPpers, is this a responsible position? I think not. The idea of having a bi-partisan agreement but insist on no tax increases is just as ridiculous as the Dems saying they want bi-partisan agreement but won't accept no spending cuts (which they have not). The only conclusion that can be reached is that the GOPpers are more intent on consolidating political power than actually solving serious national problems.

On another note, Obama launches a $500 million program to foster domestic manufacturing/jobs. I hope for the best, but wonder and hope this is money well spent. Would a Republican President do this or call it a waste of money?

Obama Launches Advanced Manufacturing Partnership
 
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retro

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Yeah, that is the type of Congressional leadership I want to see... they're sticking to what their constituents demanded of them when they were elected. If the Democrats aren't willing to talk about cutting spending, then there isn't any point in continuing to negotiate. They're coming from a position of strength (read: numbers) on this, and they can bide their time and let the Democrats take the blame for it, which will force them into making the first move.

Spending absolutely has to be cut, there's no way of getting around it. When American citizens are expected to "tighten their belts" when times get tough for them financially, then the government should have to do the same thing.
 

Panacea

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In regards to balancing the budget, I don't understand why something like GE not paying taxes is allowed to happen, even if there isn't a deficit.
 

retro

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In regards to balancing the budget, I don't understand why something like GE not paying taxes is allowed to happen, even if there isn't a deficit.

Loopholes in the tax code, which both sides use to their advantage. That's why we need to move to a simplified tax system, like the FairTax, that was everyone is paying their fair share, and there aren't any loopholes.
 

Alien Allen

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:clap:thumbup

I double down on that one :thumbup

A fair tax will make EVERYBODY contribute which as of now only half do. :thumbdown

And to those that love to penalize business with taxes just remember that they never pay taxes on their work product. It gets passed on to the consumer which is YOU and Me.

Which is why the issue of a VAT tax is absolutely disgusting and yet we will get one someday I am afraid.
 

Johnfromokc

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A fair tax will make EVERYBODY contribute which as of now only half do. :thumbdown

Wrong. A "Fair Tax" could harm lower income people depending upon how it is written and implimented. Next, I've already proven you wrong on the "only half pay taxes" claim, yet here you are repeating it again. Repeating disinformation over and over will not make it true, it will only make you more deluded.

And to those that love to penalize business with taxes just remember that they never pay taxes on their work product. It gets passed on to the consumer which is YOU and Me.

How is requiring big business to pay taxes on profits "penalizing business"? Back up what you claim. Parroting right wing talk radio won't cut it either. Give verifiable stats and documentation.

Which is why the issue of a VAT tax is absolutely disgusting and yet we will get one someday I am afraid.


Again, simply repeating the big business funded right wing entertainment media talking points does not make what you say true. Back up what you say with verifiable facts - otherwise it's just parrot talk.
 

Johnfromokc

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Spending absolutely has to be cut, there's no way of getting around it. When American citizens are expected to "tighten their belts" when times get tough for them financially, then the government should have to do the same thing.

I totally agree. We need to start by cutting the 3 unfunded wars we are currently mired in. We cut taxes on the wealthiest and borrwed money to fund them. If these wars are so important, why are we not rationing and taxing the top marginal incomes at 90% like we did in WW2 and get the job done and get out?

I've always wondered why in tough times, the working class is always told to "sacrifice" and cut back, but the wealthiest are not, and the middle class has been conditioned to protest against tax increases on the wealthy. We have the lowest taxes on the wealthy in our history, yet our unemployment rate still hovers around 10% (in reality, if accounted for accurately would be 15% or greater). So much for that bullshit of "tax the wealthy and lose jobs". The wealthiest are hoarding their reserves right now - they are NOT investing and creating anything but security for themselves while working class wages are cut and the middle class shrinks.
 

Alien Allen

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Wrong. A "Fair Tax" could harm lower income people depending upon how it is written and implimented. Next, I've already proven you wrong on the "only half pay taxes" claim, yet here you are repeating it again. Repeating disinformation over and over will not make it true, it will only make you more deluded.
you have not proven squat. And you are wrong. The statistics prove that.



How is requiring big business to pay taxes on profits "penalizing business"? Back up what you claim. Parroting right wing talk radio won't cut it either. Give verifiable stats and documentation.
I figured one of you liberal lackies would have reading comprehension. I never referenced profits. I said work PRODUCT. When you learn about business then come back and we can have a discussion.


Again, simply repeating the big business funded right wing entertainment media talking points does not make what you say true. Back up what you say with verifiable facts - otherwise it's just parrot talk.
I bet you do not even know what a VAT tax is :24:
 

Johnfromokc

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you have not proven squat. And you are wrong. The statistics prove that.

Let's see those stats.


I figured one of you liberal lackies would have reading comprehension. I never referenced profits. I said work PRODUCT. When you learn about business then come back and we can have a discussion.

Who are these "liberal lackies" of which you speak?

I have created, made profitable and sold two business for some nice capital gains. I'm a master electrician and HVAC contractor in 2 states.

Do tell me what you know of business? Are you a business owner? Put up or shut up.


I bet you do not even know what a VAT tax is :24:

Are you going to add anything meaningful to this discussion or continue attempting defensive insults, which BTW only make you look more ridiculous.

I have most likely forgotten more about economics than you ever knew or could have possibly have learned listening to Limbaugh, Hannity and Boortz.
 

Alien Allen

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Let's see those stats.
go look for your self. They are out there in tons of reputable places including the govts own sites.



Who are these "liberal lackies" of which you speak?
take a look in the mirror for one

I have created, made profitable and sold two business for some nice capital gains. I'm a master electrician and HVAC contractor in 2 states.
sigh... what has that got to do with the discussion? You still don't appear to know the difference in work product taxes as in VATS like Canada has versus a tax on profits.

Do tell me what you know of business? Are you a business owner? Put up or shut up.
I don't know what that has to do with the matter but I do own a business. A family own business that was started over 115 years ago.

want some other qualifications?? Here are a couple

Vice president of a state trade association
sat in on all negotiations of regulations on a state and local level for over the last 20 years



Are you going to add anything meaningful to this discussion or continue attempting defensive insults, which BTW only make you look more ridiculous.
take a look in the mirror. Your nothing more than a trolling gnat that appears to have a bit of narcissism

I have most likely forgotten more about economics than you ever knew or could have possibly have learned listening to Limbaugh, Hannity and Boortz.
You must have alzheimers then because your silly little rants indicate you are clueless. Did you get your education on Uranus :eek

I don't get too enthralled by talk radio hacks. or tv either. but you left out Beck from your childish little liberal talking point tirade :D
 

Johnfromokc

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go look for your self. They are out there in tons of reputable places including the govts own sites.

As I suspected, you have no statistics to back up your claim. You are typical of talk radio parrots who cannot support the ridiculous claims you make.

take a look in the mirror for one

Brilliant comment. Nanny nanny poo poo. :p

sigh... what has that got to do with the discussion? You still don't appear to know the difference in work product taxes as in VATS like Canada has versus a tax on profits.

What does this have to do with the discussion? Talk about alzheimer's. You said:

When you learn about business then come back and we can have a discussion.

I have managed to learn a little something about business thus far during my lifetime by actually building 2, so far from the ground up, with no help from mommy and daddy. You, my talking point repeating friend, are not as smart as you think you are.

I don't know what that has to do with the matter but I do own a business. A family own business that was started over 115 years ago.

You mean you are a "genetic business owner" who inherited the business from mommy and daddy but never built one from the ground up. Figures. Now I know why you come across so arrogant, yet ignorant.

want some other qualifications?? Here are a couple

Vice president of a state trade association
sat in on all negotiations of regulations on a state and local level for over the last 20 years

I'm underwhelmed. Daddy had to give you something to do since you are clueless as to running a business. Many inheritance" business owners" are much like you.

take a look in the mirror. Your nothing more than a trolling gnat that appears to have a bit of narcissism

As is typical of people like you, you resort to name calling when you lack facts to back up your flawed claims.

You must have alzheimers then because your silly little rants indicate you are clueless. Did you get your education on Uranus :eek

More name calling. Nice. Typical of people like you to trot out the troll word when that is all you have to offer. And you call me childish?

I don't get too enthralled by talk radio hacks. or tv either. but you left out Beck from your childish little liberal talking point tirade :D

I've never met a conservobot who admits to listening to talk radio, yet you and others like you repeat their talking points over and over and over. Interesting no?
 

Panacea

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I was going to say before, and now I will... I don't quite get the name calling...I try never to do that in religious and political debates....it really gets nowhere and makes people look far less credible than they might be otherwise.
 

retro

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I totally agree. We need to start by cutting the 3 unfunded wars we are currently mired in. We cut taxes on the wealthiest and borrwed money to fund them. If these wars are so important, why are we not rationing and taxing the top marginal incomes at 90% like we did in WW2 and get the job done and get out?

I've always wondered why in tough times, the working class is always told to "sacrifice" and cut back, but the wealthiest are not, and the middle class has been conditioned to protest against tax increases on the wealthy. We have the lowest taxes on the wealthy in our history, yet our unemployment rate still hovers around 10% (in reality, if accounted for accurately would be 15% or greater). So much for that bullshit of "tax the wealthy and lose jobs". The wealthiest are hoarding their reserves right now - they are NOT investing and creating anything but security for themselves while working class wages are cut and the middle class shrinks.

Here's an idea... it solves everything. I even mentioned it earlier.

ABOLISH THE TAX CODE!

Move to the FairTax system. Problem solved. There are no more loopholes, the "rich" and the "poor" pay the same percentage in taxes as everyone else. It's a consumption tax, I suggest you go read up on it and see just how fair it is. It isn't fair to tax the "rich" upwards of 90% in their top bracket in order to fund bullshit wars or equally bullshit entitlement programs.

As far as the wars go... I thought we were getting done with them, and then Obama goes and gets us involved in a third one. The only one that is even close to being legitimate was Afghanistan... Iraq and Libya were both completely unconstitutional incursions.... while Afghanistan was justifiable under the War Powers Act.

The middle class is also hording as much money as they're able to as well... because they don't know what the future holds for them. We're beginning to experience hyperinflation with the fed printing more and more money, thus devaluing our currency to rates that haven't been seen in decades, if ever. The Fed's answer to everything is to simply print more money. We need to move away from a fiat currency system if at all possible, but at this point we've probably passed the point of no return in being able to do that. If anything, raising taxes on anyone at this juncture, combined with the dollar declining in value, is simply going to speed up the rate that we experience this hyperinflation.

We're heading for economic ruin, and the government can't seem to understand the simple concept of reducing spending in order to get the economy a little bit under control. If you cut spending (like the middle class is expected to do, like you said), then it's going to eliminate the need for increased taxes, as we'll experience increased revenue simply through lowering the spending... that is to say that we'll have more money because we're not spending as much.

This country experienced it's largest period of economic growth during Reagan's terms as President... wouldn't it make sense to reduce spending and then move towards those types of economic policies? Combined with a loophole free tax system? That seems to make a whole helluva lot more sense than raising taxes on the so-called rich.
 

retro

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Oh, and if AA is parroting conservative radio talking points somehow, then all you're doing is parroting the talking points of Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann, and the like.

Funny how that cuts both ways.
 

retro

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Wrong. A "Fair Tax" could harm lower income people depending upon how it is written and implimented. Next, I've already proven you wrong on the "only half pay taxes" claim, yet here you are repeating it again. Repeating disinformation over and over will not make it true, it will only make you more deluded.

I don't know how you can prove someone wrong about something that Tax Policy Center has already proven as fact. Go ahead and read through this article, it might enlighten you. By the way, the Tax Policy Center is a non-party organization.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm

How is requiring big business to pay taxes on profits "penalizing business"? Back up what you claim. Parroting right wing talk radio won't cut it either. Give verifiable stats and documentation.

You're indirectly taxing the populace by taxing corporations to be honest. All they end up doing is passing the taxes right along to the consumer in increased costs. Economics 101.

Let's say that the cost to manufacture widget x is $150, but because of an increase of taxes, you would only effectively receive $130 by selling it. What is your solution? Sell your products at a loss? Or increase your price to the consumer in order to make a profit. As a supposed former business owner, that's a concept that you should understand.

Again, simply repeating the big business funded right wing entertainment media talking points does not make what you say true. Back up what you say with verifiable facts - otherwise it's just parrot talk.

I don't see any parroting... perhaps the evil right wing media might have something right for a change? Interesting concept.
 

retro

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What I didn't cover about businesses being punished is the concept of a C-Corp. The business itself is taxed on its income, and then any dividends that are then passed along to shareholders are taxed as well... resulting in double taxation. The way of getting around that is by incorporating as an S-Corp, which gives single taxation, but you can only incorporate as an S-Corp under certain circumstances as well... so many large businesses aren't able to do so. If you're a sole proprietorship, then you face your business income counting as your own income, thus placing you into a higher tax bracket. You could also incorporate as a partnership or an LLC, but then you face significant anti-trust regulations... but you enjoy the benefits of experiencing flow-through income without taxation... but again, you're limited in the type of business you can have and how you run it as a result.

Then if they want to eventually sell their business, they get taxed by capital gains as well.
 

Alien Allen

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Brings to mind a neat paraprosdokian sentence


Never argue with an *****
He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.


actually there is a different word used but that would probably get me an infraction and Johnnyboy you just aint worth it I am afraid
 

Johnfromokc

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Here's an idea... it solves everything. I even mentioned it earlier.

ABOLISH THE TAX CODE!

I would agree that our tax code does indeed require simplification. I do not agree with your suggestions however.

FYI, I was a hardcore conservative libertarian beginning in 1995 and beginning to end around 2004 as I continued to verify that much of that political thought process was flawed in many ways as I educated myself as to how the world actually works. And how the world actually works is often 180 degrees opposite the conservative libertarian position.

Everyone who is not a conservative or a libertarian is not automatically a liberal either. There is truth on both sides as well as massive amounts of bullshit. I refuse to drink the Koolaide of either side and put everything either side says to the truth, fact, reason and logic test.

Move to the FairTax system. Problem solved. There are no more loopholes, the "rich" and the "poor" pay the same percentage in taxes as everyone else. It's a consumption tax, I suggest you go read up on it and see just how fair it is.

I started listening to Neal Boortz in 1994. I lived in Atlanta Georgia when Hannity and Boortz were the local right wing radio talent. I can tell you 100% of his positions from memory. I read his books, including this one:

icker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

I know as much about the "Fair Tax" as you do, and I'm not a fan. It has some reasonable points, but it still taxes the middle class and lower working taxes far harder than it does the upper income brackets. It is a tax designed to benefit mainly the upper income brackets. While I like the idea of eliminating the IRS, I do not like the idea of increasing taxes on the lower income class.

It isn't fair to tax the "rich" upwards of 90% in their top bracket in order to fund bullshit wars or equally bullshit entitlement programs.

Which "bullshit entitlement programs" are you referring to? Oil company subsidies? Subsidies to big agriculture? Corporate subsidies? Lots of corporate welfare going on here in our capitalist utopia called America. Or are you only referring to the welfare checks that go to the single mom with the disabled child? Or the Social Security and Medicare benefits going to your grand parents?

I wonder who recieves more entitlement payments? Big business? Or the single mom, grandma and grandpa? Here's what John Stossel (not exactly a liberal) has to say about it:

Corporate Welfare

By John Stossel

In America today, the biggest recipients of handouts are not poor people. They're corporations.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/03/23/corporate_welfare_109316.html

As far as the wars go... I thought we were getting done with them, and then Obama goes and gets us involved in a third one. Iraq and Libya were both completely unconstitutional incursions.... while Afghanistan was justifiable under the War Powers Act.

It is good to see you note that Bush's invasion of Iraq was illigitimate. Obama is doing the best that he can. He has made mistakes and probably will make more. He is owned by the same monied interests that owned Reagan, both Bush's and our federal legislature. Even Afghanistan has spiraled out of control and we have become mired in it, fighting the Taliban we essentially created to be a thorn in the side of the Soviet Union.

One thing is certain - you cannot fund two massive ongoing wars while decreasing taxes on the wealthy and the corporations that benefit most from the profits generated by the war machine.

The middle class is also hording as much money as they're able to as well... because they don't know what the future holds for them.

Is it logical to suggest that the middle class is hoarding as much money as the top 1%? I know you did not say exactly those words, but that is what you seem to be suggesting. What is left of the ever-shrinking middle class spends most of it's income making the monthly bills. They have been forced to cut back on the credit spending and have little discretionary income. This discrestionary income pales in comparison to that of the top 1%.

The Fed's answer to everything is to simply print more money. We need to move away from a fiat currency system if at all possible, but at this point we've probably passed the point of no return in being able to do that.

You do know the Federal Reserve is a private corporation don't you? Many people think it is a federal agency, but it is not. I've often wondered why we are paying a private corporation interest to loan us our own money.

Fiat currency in itself is not the problem. A fiat system works well with sound monetary policy. I have yet to have anyone explain how a gold, silver or whatever "backed" system has any less flaws than a fiat currency system. If you can explain it, I'll listen. But neither system will work if it is not managed soundly.

We're heading for economic ruin, and the government can't seem to understand the simple concept of reducing spending in order to get the economy a little bit under control. If you cut spending (like the middle class is expected to do, like you said), then it's going to eliminate the need for increased taxes, as we'll experience increased revenue simply through lowering the spending... that is to say that we'll have more money because we're not spending as much.

OK, what do we cut that actually will make a dent in the trillions we owe? These little penny ante cuts both sides are suggesting are a joke. They are "soft targets" designed to not upset either sides voter base. The fact is taxes must be raised at least back to Clinton era levels in conjunction with an increase in the Social Security and Medicare taxes. Right now, no Social Security taxes are paid on income earned over $106,800. This must be increased to keep SS solvent. SS is NOT an entitlement program. It is an old age income suppliment that millions of elderly Americans would starve without. That leaves the military, which is an enormous financial strain on taxpayers. We need to pull out of all 3 wars and close 100% of foriegn military bases. Simply "cutting spending" will not get our financial house in order. It is going to take massive change and like it or not, the wealthy and corporations are going to have to step up to the plate and sacrifice riight alongside the working classes.

This country experienced it's largest period of economic growth during Reagan's terms as President... wouldn't it make sense to reduce spending and then move towards those types of economic policies? Combined with a loophole free tax system? That seems to make a whole helluva lot more sense than raising taxes on the so-called rich.

I have heard this fallacy so many times. It is NOT true. I do, however stand in awe of those who have worked so hard on this myth that so many simply believe it without investigating the facts for themselves. We are where we are now, largely as a result of supply side economics. Why do you think the middle class has been so steadily shrinking? It did not happen overnight. So where has all this supply side left us? To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, are you better off than you were 25 years ago?

Here is what has happened since Reagan:


The traditional pension, an employee benefit that was widely available until the early 1980's has been vanishing from the American workplace ever since. More than two-thirds of older households - those headed by people 47 to 64 - had someone earning a pension in 1983. By 2001, fewer than half did.

In the 1980s about two-thirds of corporations included health care benefits with their pensions. Today only about a third do.

In April 2004, the nation's trade gap hit a record $48 billion, precisely the sort of thing extreme capitalism, free trade, and globalization was supposed to prevent.

The Congressional Budget Office says the income gap in the United States is now the widest in 75 years. While the richest one percent of the U.S. population saw its financial wealth grow 109 percent from 1983 to 2001, the bottom two-fifths watched as its wealth fell 46 percent.

Meanwhile, for households of all ages, between 1983 and 1998 the average household net worth of the poorest 40% in the U.S. declined 76%.

The top one percent's share of household wealth had dropped from 1929 to 1981 from 44% to 27%. By 1998 it was back up to 39%.


And here's a biggie.......In 1983, 50 corporations controlled most of the news media in America. By 2002, six corporations did.

Feel free to challenge any of my information. Like your favored author and talk show host says:

"Don't believe anything I say unless you verify it" The funny thing is, Boortz KNOWS 90% of his will never check the facts and will take his word at face value.

Know this: there is but one political party in the United States today - it is the party of big business. It has two faces -Republican and Democrat. Neither side is concened with the interests of small business or the working class.
 
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