Religious Inconsistencies

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Johnfromokc

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Tuffy - you are in denial about Christianity and their part in the murder of millions - even though it is historical record. Why not just embrace it and claim divine forgivness?

Good read on the Catholic Church and Nazi's:

Nazi Leaders, Theism, and Family Values

According to standard biographies, the principal Nazi leaders were all born, baptized, and raised Christian. Most grew up in strict, pious households where tolerance and democratic values were disparaged. Nazi leaders of Catholic background included Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Joseph Goebbels.

Hitler did well in monastery school. He sang in the choir, found High Mass and other ceremonies intoxicating, and idolized priests. Impressed by their power, he at one time considered entering the priesthood.

Rudolf Hoess, who as commandant at Auschwitz-Birkinau pioneered the use of the Zyklon-B gas that killed half of all Holocaust victims, had strict Catholic parents. Hermann Goering had mixed Catholic-Protestant parentage, while Rudolf Hess, Martin Bormann, Albert Speer, and Adolf Eichmann had Protestant backgrounds. Not one of the top Nazi leaders was raised in a liberal or atheistic family—no doubt, the parents of any of them would have found such views scandalous. Traditionalists would never think to deprive their offspring of the faith-based moral foundations that they would need to grow into ethical adults.

So much for the Nazi leaders’ religious backgrounds. Assessing their religious views as adults is more difficult. On ancillary issues such as religion, Party doctrine was a deliberate tangle of contradictions.[SUP]16[/SUP] For Hitler consistency mattered less than having a statement at hand for any situation that might arise. History records many things that Hitler wrote or said about religion, but they too are sometimes contradictory. Many were crafted for a particular audience or moment and have limited value for illuminating Hitler’s true opinion; in any case, neither Hitler nor any other key Nazi leader was a trained theologian with carefully thought-out views.

Accuracy of transcription is another concern. Hitler’s public speeches were recorded reliably, but were often propagandistic. His private statements seem more likely to reflect his actual views, but their reliability varies widely.[SUP]17[/SUP] The passages Christian apologists cite most often to prove Hitler’s atheism are of questionable accuracy. Apologists often brandish them without noting historians’ reservations. Hitler’s personal library has been partly preserved, and a good deal is known about his reading habits, another possible window onto Hitler’s beliefs.[SUP]18[/SUP] Also important, and often ignored by apologists, are statements made by religious figures of the time, who generally—at least for public consumption—viewed Hitler as a Christian and a Catholic in good standing. Meanwhile, the silent testimony of photographs is irrefutable, much as apologists struggle to evade this damning visual evidence.

Despite these difficulties, enough is known to build a reasonable picture of what Hitler and other top Nazis believed.

Hitler was a Christian, but his Christ was no Jew. In his youth he dabbled with occult thinking but never became a devotee. As a young man he grew increasingly bohemian and stopped attending church. Initially no more anti-Semitic than the norm, in the years before the Great War he fell under the anti-Semitic influence of the Volkish Christian Social Party and other Aryan movements. After Germany’s stunning defeat and the ruinous terms of peace, Hitler became a full-blown Aryanist and anti-Semite. He grew obsessed with racial issues, which he unfailingly embedded in a religious context.

Apologists often suggest that Hitler did not hold a traditional belief in God because he believed that he was God. True, Hitler thought himself God’s chosen leader for the Aryan race. But he never claimed to be divine, and never presented himself in that manner to his followers. Members of the Wehrmacht swore this loyalty oath: “I swear by God this holy oath to the Führer of the German Reich and the German people, Adolf Hitler.” For Schutzstaffel (S.S.) members it was: “I pledge to you, Adolf Hitler, my obedience unto death, so help me God.”

Hitler repeatedly thanked God or Providence for his survival on the western front during the Great War, his safe escape from multiple assassination attempts, his seemingly miraculous rise from homelessness to influence and power, and his amazing international successes. He never tired of proclaiming that all of this was beyond the power of any mere mortal. Later in the war, Hitler portrayed German defeats as part of an epic test: God would reward his true chosen people with the final victory they deserved so long as they never gave up the struggle.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/paul_23_4.html
 

Joe the meek

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The problem Tuff is that John can't differentiate between men killing on behalf of their God for God's reasons as compared to their own political agenda. He just loves to lump everyone into one category and make generalizations. Have to give him credit though, he does the same thing with all those Islamic terrorists LOL
 

Johnfromokc

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Actually joe, I just lump you in with all the other "enlightened" dumbasses since you have yet to distinguish yourself as having even the slightest ability to argue anything other than the most simplistic points. ;)
 

Tuffdisc

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The problem Tuff is that John can't differentiate between men killing on behalf of their God for God's reasons as compared to their own political agenda. He just loves to lump everyone into one category and make generalizations. Have to give him credit though, he does the same thing with all those Islamic terrorists LOL

Don't I know it. The whole thread is hatred to Christianity. He doesn't understand that people can't enter into countries that have wars to try feed the starving, yet he blames God, not mankind for this suffering, if he reads up Job in the Old Testament, he might understand what God is all about, ok, I have yet to understand, no one goes in life "understanding God", we just try. God allows free will

Tuffy - you are in denial about Christianity and their part in the murder of millions - even though it is historical record. Why not just embrace it and claim divine forgivness?

Good read on the Catholic Church and Nazi's:



http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/paul_23_4.html


Oh boy, you do generalise a lot of people, like I said before there are going to be people who claim to believe in Christ and there are going to be ones that actually believe in his existence. Though I am not a saint to judge people, all I can do is determine the difference between wrong from right. You keep saying that Nazism go hand in hand with Christianity, which is so far from the truth, I can't even believe people believe that. A few Cardinals don't make up the Church as a whole. Having strict parents doesn't make you Catholic, its your belief in Catholicism that makes you Catholic. You state that "Hitler was a Christian, but his Christ was no Jew", this is simply wrong, even Jews say that Jesus was a Jew (Jews for Jesus), therefore his "Christ" was someone completely different, that "he dabbled in the occult" which is something really not in the teaching of Christianity, ok so he wasn't a "devotee", that is besides the point.
 

Johnfromokc

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Tuffy - No wars have ever been declared by Atheists against believers. Religion has always done more harm than good, and this continues to be the case. Nothing you say can change that. Just like any other Abrahamic religion, Christians pick their way through the violence and murder in the bible and say "Oh look at how wonderful we are and how much good we do!" Right. Whatever method of denial gets you through gulit ridden life.

Time for a little levity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CccaGaKOlSI
 

Tuffdisc

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Tuffy - No wars have ever been declared by Atheists against believers. Religion has always done more harm than good, and this continues to be the case. Nothing you say can change that. Just like any other Abrahamic religion, Christians pick their way through the violence and murder in the bible and say "Oh look at how wonderful we are and how much good we do!" Right. Whatever method of denial gets you through gulit ridden life.

Time for a little levity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CccaGaKOlSI


Whether they are caused by "religious" people or not is besides the point, they are all bad whoever starts them. Plus, stop throwing me videos, I don't have the bandwidth on my allowance to view them. Where have Christians picked their way through violence and murder in the Bible? All I have read is that enemies were attacking the Jews and that God was on their side etc...I have never read one case of violence in the New Testament unless you can misconstrue another thing in the Bible
 

CityGirl

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The problem Tuff is that John can't differentiate between men killing on behalf of their God for God's reasons as compared to their own political agenda. He just loves to lump everyone into one category and make generalizations. Have to give him credit though, he does the same thing with all those Islamic terrorists LOL
Men kill on behalf of God for God's reasons?
dazed024.gif
 

Stone

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.............

Soviet Communism is a tired old excuse - the Soviets didn't give a fuck if you were religious or not. You either supported the Communist party or you were imprisoned or killed.


Where do you come up with this shit?
Pull it out of your ass and worship it till you think it becomes fact?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Religion

Although raised in the Georgian Orthodox faith, Stalin was an atheist. Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. His government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion.[88]

Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.[89] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, and thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression during Khrushchev's rule. The Russian Orthodox Church Synod's recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.

Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in ethnic regions of the Soviet Union, including the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Catholic Churches, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, and Judaism underwent ordeals similar to that which the Orthodox churches in other parts of the country suffered: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed
 

Johnfromokc

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Whether they are caused by "religious" people or not is besides the point, they are all bad whoever starts them. Plus, stop throwing me videos, I don't have the bandwidth on my allowance to view them. Where have Christians picked their way through violence and murder in the Bible? All I have read is that enemies were attacking the Jews and that God was on their side etc...I have never read one case of violence in the New Testament unless you can misconstrue another thing in the Bible

Really?

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34


[Jesus] said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one..." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.
Luke 22:36,38

[Jesus] made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
John 2:15


We could use a little ass whipping on Wall Street, but sadly, most American Christians seem to think the Republicans and the banksters are doing gods work. Afterall, those good billionaire TEA Party funders are routing out the gawdless libruals.

Here's some good old fashioned old testament violence for ya. These are only a tiny fraction of bible violence. I'll post all you want:

Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1)If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
 

Johnfromokc

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Where do you come up with this shit?


Stone, are you drunk again? What war was started in the Name of Atheism? Still waiting.

Doesn't your nursing home have a curfew? I'm going to have to report Alien Allen for sneaking you in booze again.

104px-Abraham_Simpson.png
 

Joe the meek

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Men kill on behalf of God for God's reasons?
dazed024.gif

Apologies, I'd scratch my head to.

What I meant to say is that John can't differentiate between between men killing others in the name of their religion when in reality those men are only killing for their own personal/political/power reasons.

Just because man says he's killing in the name of his God does not mean he's telling the truth.

Some time ago you posted a scale of the earth in the Universe. I think in the grand scheme of things, if there is a God, he has better things to do than have humans killing in his name.
 

Stone

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Men kill on behalf of God for God's reasons?
dazed024.gif

Or kill men on behalf of state atheism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

It's a longish read, but it demonstrates what atheists can be capable of, also.

Not all men kill on behalf of religion or atheism.
But it's rather obvious men use those concepts as rationale for power.


Since I'm not copy and pasting cartoons into my post, I wonder if anyone will bother to read the link? :rolleyes:
 

Stone

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Stone, are you drunk again? What war was started in the Name of Atheism? Still waiting.

Doesn't your nursing home have a curfew? I'm going to have to report Alien Allen for sneaking you in booze again.

104px-Abraham_Simpson.png



Denying you posted this

...............

Soviet Communism is a tired old excuse - the Soviets didn't give a fuck if you were religious or not. You either supported the Communist party or you were imprisoned or killed.

is one way of avoiding having to defend it :D


You are fucking up again .....better to accommodate reality than try to write your own ;)
 

Stone

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Apologies, I'd scratch my head to.

What I meant to say is that John can't differentiate between between men killing others in the name of their religion when in reality those men are only killing for their own personal/political/power reasons.

Just because man says he's killing in the name of his God does not mean he's telling the truth.
..........................


Indeed.
But John has an agenda.
Religion must die.......did you read the link I posted on state atheism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

Same mentality ( killing for their own personal/political/power reasons. ), just a different means to power.

Does John have visions of grandeur? :D
 

Johnfromokc

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Apologies, I'd scratch my head to.

You obviously have no clue how many of your posts fit the head scratching category. Even Vin used to ask me if I knew WTF you were talking about. Had to quite frequently say "no fucking clue". :dunno

What I meant to say is that John can't differentiate between between men killing others in the name of their religion when in reality those men are only killing for their own personal/political/power reasons.

It's a distinction without a difference when you paint with the hypocrit broad brush like you do Joe. You make no attempt to understand posts you disagree with - you just shoot off a reply. It's funny as fuck watching you do the same thing you accuse me of.

Just like the dipshits running around here attempting to say the soviets killed in the name of Atheism. They killed religious people because they were not willing to risk their solidarity - they didn't give a fuck what imaginary deity they worshiped.

Just because man says he's killing in the name of his God does not mean he's telling the truth.

Does it really matter in the long run if "man" convinces enough other religo-bots to follow him in gods name?

Some time ago you posted a scale of the earth in the Universe. I think in the grand scheme of things, if there is a God, he has better things to do than have humans killing in his name.

If there IS a god? If you have doubts, why are you even participating in this thread - other than the fact that you love me so much?
 

Stone

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......................

Just like the dipshits running around here attempting to say the soviets killed in the name of Atheism. They killed religious people because they were not willing to risk their solidarity - ........................................

......................................

Their solidarity involved the acceptance of an atheistic state.

Please stop making a fool of your self.
 
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