Religious Inconsistencies

[Johnfromokc]

I guess Epicurus has never heard of free will.

Guess you never heard of logic.

There's always some excuse.

 

[Minor Axis]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

I realize this is a quote, but our lives on Earth have nothing to do with God allowing evil, being unable to stop evil, or being malevolent. When Earth is viewed as the Earth Simulator, that's what this is, a place to learn and improve one's self. When humans feel they have lousy lives because God allows evil, they are not seeing/imaging the big picture that spirituality is supposed to include.

 

[Minor Axis]

So what is the point of this thread if there is mis-categorised of position of Atheists

Huh? The point is not to mis-categorize on purpose or in ignorance.

 

[Stone]

I realize this is a quote, but our lives on Earth have nothing to do with God allowing evil, being unable to stop evil, or being malevolent. When Earth is viewed as the Earth Simulator, that's what this is, a place to learn and improve one's self. When humans feel they have lousy lives because God allows evil, they are not seeing/imaging the big picture that spirituality is supposed to include.

You hope.......LOL!


You hate ancient scripture but make comments like that out of the blue :eek

Looking for middle ground to stand on?
If it wasn't for GIA's 5 second stroke, you and he could have teamed up .....

 

[Minor Axis]

Stone, you want so bad for me to engage you, lol.

 

[Tim]

When Earth is viewed as the Earth Simulator, that's what this is, a place to learn and improve one's self.

Dude, even I think you are nuts when you talk like this...

Where the hell does someone come up with ideas like this? Is it like throwing a dart on a board filled with outlandish fantasies and where ever the dart hits, that's what your sticking with?

:crazy:

 

[Tuffdisc]

Guess you never heard of logic.

There's always some excuse.

Have you ever heard of logic? All of the images you have posted in this thread are laughably mad

 

[CityGirl]

Here is something I don't get. According to the BuyBull, Man by his very nature is evil/sinful. God was so angered by the sinfulness of man that he destroyed the world by flood. But, he saved a few sinful creatures to start all over with. Nothing like starting from scratch with a contaminated specimen. This is Einstein's definition of insanity!

 

[Mercury]

Look at all of the Holy text. Keep in mind this stuff has been translated and in some cases there are controversies about what the original text ment. Then you have the church who decides what belongs in the Bible. This stuff has the hands of man all over it. The only possible way God was involved is to say that our supreme deity was there behind the scenes directing these people possibly subconsciously to do the things they do. Where this falls down is when you see the mess the Church represents, especially the Catholic church or any of the fundamentalist churches with charismatic leaders riding in limos, and finally you can take one of Jesus's doctrines to diminish practically every church out there, resisting the temptation to exert power over others.

Well said ... and that was my point. The HUMAN element in Religion is what is usually sour.

Alright, let me see if I can give you my perspective on this... let me regress back to my fundie days

The word of god is just that, the word of god. It was divinely inspired but written by the hand of man. We were taught that translation mattered and the King James version was as close as you can get, so we exclusively used that and only that. There were no other religious texts that were divinely written and as such none other to be considered as holy text.
There was zero room for doubting a single verse or word in the bible. It was to be ingested as gospel, the infallible word of god.

Fast forward 20 so years and I have learned many things that cause me to question any holy text and whether any were "divinely" inspired.
Here are may concerns
Translations being incorrect or incomplete
Missing sections, added sections, deleted sections
Multiple holy texts and so many similarities between them
Stories that repeat between different religions with different characters
Why are divinely inspired texts only given to primitive cultures thousands of years ago?
Why would god choose people living in the desert so long ago and then be quiet?
Why no new information?

For me, it doesn't make sense, any of it. I think it makes more sense that primitive man was in awe of nature and it's furry. Couple that with the overbearing loss of loved ones when they died and it makes perfect sense that stories would take shape to help describe the world around us. Stories that help ease the loss of a loved one and how their spirit would live on, which is a great way to ease the pain. And over the millennium these stories were refined and perfected as they were passed down generation after generation. The advent of the written word helped solidify the stories and helped shaped who we were as a people.

I believe that the progression the human species has taken was the logical course. That if we were to start all over again, religion would be the first to spring up to help explain the natural world around us before we matured enough to understand the world through science. I am an atheist who believes that religion was absolutely necessary for our development and that religion is still needed by many and I'm ok with that. But I also believe that thousands of years from now we will be as free from religion as our ancestors were free from science.

Was that thought out enough for you?

LOL ... well done Tim.

You pretty much summed up what I meant in my statement which caused such a lengthy response ...

 

[Johnfromokc]

 

[Tuffdisc]

Yada, yada, yada, did someone post a link of scientists who were Christian in this thread? Oh yeah, sure they did

 

[Stone]

Alright, let me see if I can give you my perspective on this... let me regress back to my fundie days

The word of god is just that, the word of god. It was divinely inspired but written by the hand of man. We were taught that translation mattered and the King James version was as close as you can get, so we exclusively used that and only that. There were no other religious texts that were divinely written and as such none other to be considered as holy text.
There was zero room for doubting a single verse or word in the bible. It was to be ingested as gospel, the infallible word of god.

Fast forward 20 so years and I have learned many things that cause me to question any holy text and whether any were "divinely" inspired.
Here are may concerns
Translations being incorrect or incomplete
Missing sections, added sections, deleted sections
Multiple holy texts and so many similarities between them
Stories that repeat between different religions with different characters
Why are divinely inspired texts only given to primitive cultures thousands of years ago?
Why would god choose people living in the desert so long ago and then be quiet?
Why no new information?

For me, it doesn't make sense, any of it. I think it makes more sense that primitive man was in awe of nature and it's furry. Couple that with the overbearing loss of loved ones when they died and it makes perfect sense that stories would take shape to help describe the world around us. Stories that help ease the loss of a loved one and how their spirit would live on, which is a great way to ease the pain. And over the millennium these stories were refined and perfected as they were passed down generation after generation. The advent of the written word helped solidify the stories and helped shaped who we were as a people.

I believe that the progression the human species has taken was the logical course. That if we were to start all over again, religion would be the first to spring up to help explain the natural world around us before we matured enough to understand the world through science. I am an atheist who believes that religion was absolutely necessary for our development and that religion is still needed by many and I'm ok with that. But I also believe that thousands of years from now we will be as free from religion as our ancestors were free from science.

Was that thought out enough for you?

That was well thought out and I applaud you for taking the time that so many characteristically blow off.
You've actually posted many reasons why I don't consider the Holy Bible the inerrant Word of God, as I've mentioned in the distant past.
But while it certainly addresses the literal correctness of the Bible, it's still opinion when it comes to addressing what is unknown and likely to remain unknown in an empirical sense...., as is my own position.
My issue with these religious threads is that they typically impose personal opinion rather than discuss the topic and it's boundaries.
Since you've presented fair and proper reasoning for your opinion, here is mine.....you are welcome to your opinion as long as you don't intend to impose it upon me. And this goes to fundamentalists as well. I am not interested in converting you to my opinion ( my beliefs ). I'm not even concerned about your personal beliefs as long as they don't infringe upon me, and I extend this to fundamentalists.

I wasn't raised a fundamentalist and have never experienced it's fragile/brittle traits concerning doubt.
There is much I don't know and can't explain and in accepting that, doubt becomes merely blank spots to be discovered rather than the mechanism that destroys. 'Faith' is obviously complex.....too much unfounded 'detail' can obviously become an issue.

In a perverse way, I do however enjoy these threads, both atheist and fundamentalist because they allow me to improve my skills with logic.

Again, thanks for taking the time where most are taking cheap shots with copy and paste images and cartoons.

 

[Tim]

...My issue with these religious threads is that they typically impose personal opinion rather than discuss the topic and it's boundaries.
...

But here is the problem, religion is personal. It can't be discussed scientifically nor should it be. It can't be proven nor disproved.
It is only a personal journey that can't be dissected by logic or reason.

I don't want to "convert" anyone or lead them away from their beliefs. But, and this is the big but....

I want people to wake up. I want people to start thinking for themselves and stop being sheep just blindly following what they were told. I don't think it's good to accept anything on blind faith unless you actually have done your due diligence and examined why you believe what you do. That's the problem with most major religions, they strongly discourage a true examination of the faith. Too much is explained away with, "you need to have faith", "God works in mysterious ways", "You can't really understand God's will", etc. And people just accept this and question no further.
There are glaring inconsistencies and contradictions that are never examined by the "faithful" because of their blindness.
This is what concerns me.

Personally I feel that those who whole heartily accept faith are weak individuals. That faith and religion fill a whole in their lives and if it wasn't faith and religion it would be some other crutch like drugs or alcohol. I have seen this many times through the many years of being a Christian. It's no coincidence that the majority of mission work is done at the prisons, poor neighborhoods, rehabs, or any other place where people are in some sort of "need". To actually witness a life time drunk give up alcohol and turn to religion is amazing to watch. You can see them replace one crutch with another and depend on latter with as much vigor as they did clutching that bottle of Jack. Religion and faith can either fill a void in someones life or replace a vice they already have.

Now I understand that what I just said will anger some of you, but that wasn't the reason I posted it. It's just an transition I have seen repeated thousands of times throughout my life in the faith... And once you recognize the pattern it becomes so clear that you wonder why everyone doesn't see it.

Feed their soul and give them purpose and they will continue to eat from the troth of knowledge for life... just real them in like fishes

 

[Panacea]

I will say, though it's off topic, I truly believe humans can do no better than shift from one addiction to another. One can say drugs to god is a positive shift
Ok back to your regularly scheduled thread!

 

[Johnfromokc]

But here is the problem, religion is personal. It can't be discussed scientifically nor should it be. It can't be proven nor disproved.
It is only a personal journey that can't be dissected by logic or reason.

I don't want to "convert" anyone or lead them away from their beliefs. But, and this is the big but....

I want people to wake up. I want people to start thinking for themselves and stop being sheep just blindly following what they were told. I don't think it's good to accept anything on blind faith unless you actually have done your due diligence and examined why you believe what you do. That's the problem with most major religions, they strongly discourage a true examination of the faith. Too much is explained away with, "you need to have faith", "God works in mysterious ways", "You can't really understand God's will", etc. And people just accept this and question no further.
There are glaring inconsistencies and contradictions that are never examined by the "faithful" because of their blindness.
This is what concerns me.

Personally I feel that those who whole heartily accept faith are weak individuals. That faith and religion fill a whole in their lives and if it wasn't faith and religion it would be some other crutch like drugs or alcohol. I have seen this many times through the many years of being a Christian. It's no coincidence that the majority of mission work is done at the prisons, poor neighborhoods, rehabs, or any other place where people are in some sort of "need". To actually witness a life time drunk give up alcohol and turn to religion is amazing to watch. You can see them replace one crutch with another and depend on latter with as much vigor as they did clutching that bottle of Jack. Religion and faith can either fill a void in someones life or replace a vice they already have.

Now I understand that what I just said will anger some of you, but that wasn't the reason I posted it. It's just an transition I have seen repeated thousands of times throughout my life in the faith... And once you recognize the pattern it becomes so clear that you wonder why everyone doesn't see it.

Feed their soul and give them purpose and they will continue to eat from the troth of knowledge for life... just real them in like fishes

:homo: Great post, but no matter how many times you repeat it, it will never break through to the one's who need it most.

 

[Minor Axis]

Dude, even I think you are nuts when you talk like this...

Where the hell does someone come up with ideas like this? Is it like throwing a dart on a board filled with outlandish fantasies and where ever the dart hits, that's what your sticking with?

:crazy:

Of course you would, Mr. Grounded In The Dirt Atheist, who does not speculate and relies only on proven science. What makes you think I'm sticking with anything in particular? How many times do I have to say it, I am Agnostic. I like to speculate regarding spirituality so shoot me. My reference to the Earth Simulator is not belief and its basis is not my idea. It's based on any religious faith that believes in heaven and an afterlife.

It is simply an extension of a premise beginning with spirituality (which is widely accepted as gospel ), and speculation regarding a purpose for our lives. It's in response to people who loose their faith based on an unrealistic expectation of the role of God in their lives, among other things to shield them from bad things. The Earth Simulator is a term I made up to differentiate between our Human lives and the spiritual life that millions believe follows physical death. Based on these premises, it provides a plausible reason why shit happens on Earth. The faithful that struggle are looking at their lives in human terms and limits. And even though they claim to believe in heaven, fail to take that aspect of their existence into account. It becomes all about here and now and I'm suffering. They fail to consider that the adversity in their lives could be obstacles to overcome and learn from.

But here is the problem, religion is personal. It can't be discussed scientifically nor should it be. It can't be proven nor disproved.
It is only a personal journey that can't be dissected by logic or reason.

Yet you feel the need to call me crazy for mentioning the Earth Simulator. :smiley24:

I will say, though it's off topic, I truly believe humans can do no better than shift from one addiction to another. One can say drugs to god is a positive shift

Ok back to your regularly scheduled thread!

That would depend now wouldn't it?

 

[Alien Allen]

oh come on Minor

that Earth Simulator bit was flippin hilarious

 

[Minor Axis]

oh come on Minor

that Earth Simulator bit was flippin hilarious

I like it. When it comes to religion, what are you Allen?

If you believe in Heaven, and you spend an average of 70 years on Earth as a Human, then turn into your true spirit self to spend eternity in Heaven, then what was Earth, but a simulation? It's like a MMORPG where thousands of people play roles. Get it?

 

[Stone]

But here is the problem, religion is personal. It can't be discussed scientifically nor should it be. It can't be proven nor disproved.
It is only a personal journey that can't be dissected by logic or reason.

I don't want to "convert" anyone or lead them away from their beliefs. But, and this is the big but....

I want people to wake up. I want people to start thinking for themselves and stop being sheep just blindly following what they were told. I don't think it's good to accept anything on blind faith unless you actually have done your due diligence and examined why you believe what you do. That's the problem with most major religions, they strongly discourage a true examination of the faith. Too much is explained away with, "you need to have faith", "God works in mysterious ways", "You can't really understand God's will", etc. And people just accept this and question no further.
There are glaring inconsistencies and contradictions that are never examined by the "faithful" because of their blindness.
This is what concerns me.

Personally I feel that those who whole heartily accept faith are weak individuals. That faith and religion fill a whole in their lives and if it wasn't faith and religion it would be some other crutch like drugs or alcohol. I have seen this many times through the many years of being a Christian. It's no coincidence that the majority of mission work is done at the prisons, poor neighborhoods, rehabs, or any other place where people are in some sort of "need". To actually witness a life time drunk give up alcohol and turn to religion is amazing to watch. You can see them replace one crutch with another and depend on latter with as much vigor as they did clutching that bottle of Jack. Religion and faith can either fill a void in someones life or replace a vice they already have.

Now I understand that what I just said will anger some of you, but that wasn't the reason I posted it. It's just an transition I have seen repeated thousands of times throughout my life in the faith... And once you recognize the pattern it becomes so clear that you wonder why everyone doesn't see it.

Feed their soul and give them purpose and they will continue to eat from the troth of knowledge for life... just real them in like fishes

But here is the problem, religion is personal. It can't be discussed scientifically nor should it be. It can't be proven nor disproved.
It is only a personal journey that can't be dissected by logic or reason.

I agree with your summation, but I see a distinction between the reality we exist in and the projection of the concept 'faith' as an answer for the unknowable within our physical realm. So the concept of faith shouldn't be an issue that interferes with the logic of science, imo.....thus I don't have the conflicts that fundamentalists need, to embrace, and reassure their doubts. But as atheists point out, and some Christians agree, 'faith' taken to the extremes tries to rationalize it's self using the same logic as applied to reality.....it's an obvious apples to oranges fallacy.

I don't think it's good to accept anything on blind faith unless you actually have done your due diligence and examined why you believe what you do.

All faith is 'blind' in an empirical setting. You do appear to be of a very analytical and empirical nature so I wouldn't expect you to hold any different position. But it's still only your opinion and if a person values personal freedoms, what argument can you propose that rationalizes regulation on issue that can't be studied?

I don't want to "convert" anyone or lead them away from their beliefs. But, and this is the big but....

I want people to wake up.

Just pointing out that this is the same logic a fundamentalist would use, but like apples and oranges, not the same format. The would point to the Bible as the inerrant Word of God while you point to the empirical study of reality ( science)
I do understand what you mean if you are criticizing the rigidity and the imposition of organized religion, though.

Too much is explained away with, "you need to have faith", "God works in mysterious ways", "You can't really understand God's will", etc. And people just accept this and question no further.

I agree.
I was trained in science, have a BS degree in Geology and very involved at another debate forum on topics like evolution. I constantly ran into that mentality in defending the science of the process/event of evolution and it's theory, so I'm well aware of this problem.
It's 'faith' taken to extremism just as atheism taken to extremes can result in state atheism.
And both have political engines within their fold to facilitate their positions on others.
It's an issue of 'True Believers' existing in both camps.

Personally I feel that those who whole heartily accept faith are weak individuals.

Be it as it may, your position is one of an absolute.
I see some as mentally weak in both the fundamentalist and atheist camps.
doombug was an obvious example, but give this thread a critical eye.....isn't it rather obvious there are fewer actually discussing and debating than those that are most obsessed in driving their message?

That faith and religion fill a whole in their lives and if it wasn't faith and religion it would be some other crutch like drugs or alcohol. I have seen this many times through the many years of being a Christian. It's no coincidence that the majority of mission work is done at the prisons, poor neighborhoods, rehabs, or any other place where people are in some sort of "need". To actually witness a life time drunk give up alcohol and turn to religion is amazing to watch. You can see them replace one crutch with another and depend on latter with as much vigor as they did clutching that bottle of Jack. Religion and faith can either fill a void in someones life or replace a vice they already have.

Indeed.....but you should realize that your analogy started with a weak individual.
I'm not aware of most people that have a concept of 'faith', being of that condition to start with.

Now I understand that what I just said will anger some of you....

Not me.....I like to debate and discuss these thing on this level.

Feed their soul and give them purpose and they will continue to eat from the troth of knowledge for life... just real them in like fishes

OK....you made me laugh


imo, the strength of faith is more about it's perseverance than the blind acceptance of claimed details. Fragility comes with that blind package and when tested, really tested as you seem to have done, it's frequently shattered.
So, from my pov, you are supplying the rationale to shatter other peoples faith....and it contradicts your statement:

I don't want to "convert" anyone or lead them away from their beliefs.

But, and this is the big but....

In their own way, fundies seem to make a similar statement...(edit: at me )...only they use phrases like: "are you calling God a liar " or "you're not a true believer "

About all I see out of this are two groups of extremists that hack and claw their way to acceptance, Tim.

 

[Stone]

oh come on Minor

that Earth Simulator bit was flippin hilarious

I had to rep that