Religion Debate Thread

[Tuffdisc]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

There's a BIG difference between being a rapist and being a homosexual and I cannot believe anyone would build an argument around the two in this day and age. Are you homophobic then? It certainly sounds like it.

Being homosexual IS NOT A CHOICE. Sexual orientation is not something you "choose". It's how we are formed. You are straight not through choice any more than anyone else.

And this has nothing to do with control or anything like that, and I really don't understand where any of this came from, the rape scenario doesn't apply here.

As for questioning scientists, I'd happily question a scientist. But the scientific findings, well, unless you can conduct similar studies then you have to take the results they have found. Science should always be questioned. The peer-review process demands it.



Of course it's the opposite of questioning: it's an ANSWER! Attributing anything to God is giving yourself the easiest and least-effort of answers.

There is plenty of harm in a belief in God, as I explained briefly before in this thread, and you've just highlighted that very well: Bigotry is one of the bastions of modern religion. Great contribution to the world, that one.

As for homosexuality being "normal", well, it certainly is for homosexuals. And it's been observed in many other species, not just humans. It's as natural as the sun rising every day.

Is that all you can say to me? Am I homophobic? Pfft, you got nothing left in your armoury so you use that card all the time, that is so sad and boring, to say that homosexuality is a choice is not homophobic, grow up will you, discuss things properly will you, everyone has a preference in life, so it IS A CHOICE, and don't insinuate that I am homophobic, because that is just a lame argument or accusation thrown at me

You are saying that people can't control themselves for being what they do, of course they can, otherwise we might as well throw the laws away if they couldn't control themselves, or do you want that to happen? Just because other species 'do it' doesn't mean to say that it is normal, is two wrongs a right? No? thought as much

 

[Niamh]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

How about those who don't want to be gay so much that they get married and have a family and try to repress it? What gender you're attracted to is hardly a choice, you could choose not to act on being attracted to the same sex but you can't choose to stop being attracted.

 

[edgray]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

Is that all you can say to me? Am I homophobic? Pfft, you got nothing left in your armoury so you use that card all the time, that is so sad and boring, to say that homosexuality is a choice is not homophobic, grow up will you, discuss things properly will you, everyone has a preference in life, so it IS A CHOICE, and don't insinuate that I am homophobic, because that is just a lame argument or accusation thrown at me

No, I didn't CALL you homophobic, I asked if you are homophobic - BIG difference.

There's no "armoury" here. And no, saying homosexuality is a choice by itself isn't homophobic, but it certainly leads one to think that's where that utterly ridiculous and backward and totally unfounded belief comes from.

IT'S NOT A CHOICE. Neither is being straight, bi lesbian or whatever.

But I'd like to ask, how do you justify it as being a choice?

And don't tell me to "grow up" because you can't even tackle my stance at all. Big cop out.

You are saying that people can't control themselves for being what they do, of course they can, otherwise we might as well throw the laws away if they couldn't control themselves, or do you want that to happen? Just because other species 'do it' doesn't mean to say that it is normal, is two wrongs a right? No? thought as much

Of course we can control ourselves, but we control ourselves ONLY within the limits of the mental and physical framework we've been given. This is all determined by a combination of genetics and environmental stimuli.

And yes, because it's observed in other species it does make it perfectly natural.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

If homosexuality was a choice, I could choose to be lesbian any moment now. Only there would be no feelings. I can't force myself. So what gives people their feelings towards members of the same sex. People don't choose their feelings, and therefore can't choose their sexuality. Part of it is to do with upbringing, another human nature, and maybe a little genetic contribution.

 

[edgray]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

How about those who don't want to be gay so much that they get married and have a family and try to repress it? What gender you're attracted to is hardly a choice, you could choose not to act on being attracted to the same sex but you can't choose to stop being attracted.

well said

 

[HK]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

....everyone has a preference in life, so it IS A CHOICE

If homosexuality as a 'preference' means it is a controllable choice then presumably you're saying that straight people are also straight by choice, as it is their preference to like the opposite sex, but could 'choose' to become homosexual instead if they wanted. Is that right?

At what point in life do you think we choose our sexuality?

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

And if sexuality is NOT a choice, doesn't that make it unfair that religions hate on gay people? Hmm?

 

[Tuffdisc]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

If homosexuality as a 'preference' means it is a controllable choice then presumably you're saying that straight people are also straight by choice, as it is their preference to like the opposite sex, but could 'choose' to become homosexual instead if they wanted. Is that right?

At what point in life do you think we choose our sexuality?

Are you saying that we have NO CONTROL on what we think? I can understand about if the brain regulates the heart beat, but to say that we have no control on who we have sex with is just plain daft :thumbup No offence

 

[Niamh]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

Are you saying that we have NO CONTROL on what we think? I can understand about if the brain regulates the heart beat, but to say that we have no control on who we have sex with is just plain daft :thumbup No offence

You seem to be missing the point slightly, of course we can control who we do and do not have sex with but we can't control who we want and don't want to.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

You know things influence our choices, just saying.

A drunk person is a little impaired in the judgment arena, just saying.

A person under hallucinogenic effects would have trouble too, just saying.

The environment can affect somebody too, just saying.

 

[Tuffdisc]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

You seem to be missing the point slightly, of course we can control who we do and do not have sex with but we can't control who we want and don't want to.

So did you consciously want to be married? Or was that due to lack of control on your behalf?

 

[Niamh]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

So did you consciously want to be married? Or was that due to lack of control on your behalf?

I don't see how that question has any relevance to the point I was making

 

[Tuffdisc]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

I don't see how that question has any relevance to the point I was making

OK, if you don't see the relevance of the question, then don't tell me that our sexuality isn't a choice, it is clear to me that it is, no I am not narrow-minded, but from what I get from Ed and other gay people is that the reason why they want to defend it as not a choice is because they want to 'justify' their sexuality

 

[HK]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

Are you saying that we have NO CONTROL on what we think? I can understand about if the brain regulates the heart beat, but to say that we have no control on who we have sex with is just plain daft :thumbup No offence

This isn't about conscious thought, it's about attraction. We don't consciously control who we're attracted to. Even within one gender, no woman is attracted to every single man and vice versa. I could choose to have sex with a woman technically, but that doesn't make me a lesbian at heart - just because an action is possible does not mean it is possible to just 'pick' a new preference to go with the action.

Anyone can live their life differently - as Niamh pointed out, there are plenty of gay people who attempt to lead a straight life for one reason or another - but that doesn't erase the fact that they attracted to the opposite sex.

If it were that easy then presumably you could choose, right now, to go and lead a gay lifestyle instead. I'm not saying you would or should, but if we had control over who we are attracted to on a subconscious level then it would be easy to simply say 'actually women aren't worth it, now I shall like dick!'

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

Haha, this debate is sad. TD has committed numerous fallacies, sad he can't see.
I'm outta here, yayer.

 

[Niamh]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

OK, if you don't see the relevance of the question, then don't tell me that our sexuality isn't a choice, it is clear to me that it is, no I am not narrow-minded, but from what I get from Ed and other gay people is that the reason why they want to defend it as not a choice is because they want to 'justify' their sexuality

No, I mean I'm not attracted to women so naturally I'm with a man, if I was attracted to women I would probably be with a woman which would then be natural to me. If I choose not to be with a woman but was attracted to women that would be an unnatural choice.

 

[Tuffdisc]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

This isn't about conscious thought, it's about attraction. We don't consciously control who we're attracted to. Even within one gender, no woman is attracted to every single man and vice versa. I could choose to have sex with a woman technically, but that doesn't make me a lesbian at heart - just because an action is possible does not mean it is possible to just 'pick' a new preference to go with the action.

Anyone can live their life differently - as Niamh pointed out, there are plenty of gay people who attempt to lead a straight life for one reason or another - but that doesn't erase the fact that they attracted to the opposite sex.

If it were that easy then presumably you could choose, right now, to go and lead a gay lifestyle instead. I'm not saying you would or should, but if we had control over who we are attracted to on a subconscious level then it would be easy to simply say 'actually women aren't worth it, now I shall like dick!'

We're not consciously attracted to each other? If someone tells me I'm ugly, is that not being consciously telling me that they're are not conscious of what they say or do?

 

[Tuffdisc]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

No, I mean I'm not attracted to women so naturally I'm with a man, if I was attracted to women I would probably be with a woman which would then be natural to me. If I choose not to be with a woman but was attracted to women that would be an unnatural choice.

I'm not attracted to men because I don't believe that to be right to be attracted to the same gender, just because other species have been known to have 'sex' with each other doesn't mean that homosexuality is right

 

[HK]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

We're not consciously attracted to each other? If someone tells me I'm ugly, is that not being consciously telling me that they're are not conscious of what they say or do?

Yes, but that conscious awareness that they are not attracted to you comes from their subconscious desire for a different type.

Put aside the fact that you don't believe homosexuality is okay for a moment and answer these questions:

If sexuality is a choice, at what point in our lives do we make the decision to be straight or gay?

And if it is a choice, therefore you could potentially decide to become gay. Forget about the fact that you are not gay - if it is a choice then you are saying that if you one day somehow had your mind changed, you could then decide to be attracted to men. Yes?

 

[Niamh]

Re: 2 hours IN shoveling - SNOW ANGEL CAME

I'm not attracted to men because I don't believe that to be right to be attracted to the same gender, just because other species have been known to have 'sex' with each other doesn't mean that homosexuality is right

and that's the reason you think you're not gay?:confused So you don't feel that you being attracted to women was just natural attraction then? You actively chose not to be attracted to men? I never made a choice to be straight, I just was. If I happened to be attracted to women then I'd be with a woman. Personally I believe that a loving relationship between two consenting adults is no one elses business besides the two involved and if it's right for them then it's right all round.