Proof of God - for or against???

[Tuffdisc]

Did yinz even read what I said there?

Yeah, you said that whoever believes in God is closed minded

 

[Panacea]

Yeah, you said that whoever believes in God is closed minded

I walk fine lines
To say god absolutely exists is just as closed minded as saying it definitely doesn't.
I think either option insinuates, in either direction, we know for sure about the origins of life, which is a bit closed to me.

I am a 6 on the Dawkins scale, mostly unconvinced by the Abrahamic god, but I am open to discovery of all sorts.

 

[brieze]

Let me break this down

Religion - 0 Atheists - 0


No one knows crap.

 

[Diggin Deep]

Let me break this down

Religion - 0 Atheists - 0


No one knows crap.

Ha!Ha! :willy_nilly: :thumbup

 

[BornReady]

Is the proof enough for the individual to believe in a creator?

I too believe our universe had a beginning but so do hurricanes. There is no reason to believe the "creator" of our universe was a person. Maybe our universe was created by a black hole in another universe. Maybe our universe was created by an old man with a long white beard. No one knows. Some people pretend like they know because it makes them feel better. I am comfortable with admitting I don't know.

 

[brieze]

Some people pretend like they know because it makes them feel better. I am comfortable with admitting I don't know

Can I put this as my sig?

 

[BornReady]

Sure. I'm glad you like it.

 

[itsmeJonB]

Sure. I'm glad you like it.

I do too but id apply it more to my answer of the creation of the universe, not the existence of a diety
I guess its almost one in the same.. but not quite

 

[FreightTrain]

Is it just me or does the word atheist often equate with douchebag??
I can respect a spiritual healer. I can respect an agnostic. I can respect those mute on the topic. Atheist?? That still makes me think of most cynical, cocky, down-trodden people on Earth. I don't know. Again, maybe that's just me.

 

[itsmeJonB]

Is it just me or does the word atheist often equate with douchebag??
I can respect a spiritual healer. I can respect an agnostic. I can respect those mute on the topic. Atheist?? That still makes me think of most cynical, cocky, down-trodden people on Earth. I don't know. Again, maybe that's just me.

Well, its a good thing your opinion doesn't really matter then does it

 

[FreightTrain]

Yes it is. My opinion is equally-weighted as the average schmo!

 

[Diggin Deep]

Is it just me or does the word atheist often equate with douchebag??
I can respect a spiritual healer. I can respect an agnostic. I can respect those mute on the topic. Atheist?? That still makes me think of most cynical, cocky, down-trodden people on Earth. I don't know. Again, maybe that's just me.

I know a lot of people who feel this way regarding atheism - so I understand your opinion. However, it is not my opinion. I have made many friends over the years who are/were atheist. Whether they are/were atheist because they were brought up that way, by choice, or circumstance...I don't consider them a douchebag. I try very hard not to pass judgement on anyone and am far from "perfect" by any stretch of the word. I may not agree with their opinion and views, but they are still my friends and some have better morals, by "human standards", than some who consider themselves Christians. All I can hope is that through our friendship or even a forum acquaintance, is to offer an alternative to their belief - through my actions and my words.

What they do with that alternative is their choice, but it doesn't keep me from befriending them. It just gives me incentive to get on my knees.

 

[BornReady]

Atheist?? That still makes me think of most cynical, cocky, down-trodden people on Earth. I don't know. Again, maybe that's just me.

Atheists are skeptical, not cynical. There's a difference. Cocky? I don't know. Atheists probably tend to be more self confident than theists. Theists are often told they are worthless sinners. That can affect your self confidence after awhile. Unfortunately, atheists are often down-trodden which means oppressed or treated badly by people in power.

 

[FreightTrain]

Yeah, I understand all of that. But, to believe NOT to believe? To me, there's a certain amount of arrogance involved in that train of thought. At least, agnostics admit they just don't know. There may be a God, there may not be--they haven't decided. Atheists say there is no God because, 'I said so.' To me, that's just plain ignorant. I haven't been to the planet Mars, but I believe it exists. The only proof I have of it is sketchy photos and the word of astronomers. I've never been to Mars and probably never will go there, but I can still believe in it merely because some people told about it. It's funny that some would sooner accept the Big Bang theory over the possibility that maybe there is something greater out there. Maybe there's a reason for this Earth and its perfect atmosphere. Maybe there's a reason we walk on two legs and are smarter than anything else on our planet. Humans are able to run, swim, and fly--something we share with only a few birds on Earth and no other animal. Maybe, I'm too rational...maybe too inquisitive...maybe too spiritual, but I believe in something else. I don't believe Man has it all figured out, but I'm open to listen and I believe atheists have their minds closed. But, who am I to judge? I'm just a mere mortal expressing my personal beliefs. I'm no different than the average schmuck with a laptop and half of a braincell.

 

[itsmeJonB]

On the contrary atheists have their minds open. We understand that there is no answer as of yet and they continue to look to science for facts and theories. To discredit findings of proof with the idea that god did it is far more closed minded. We have to have physical evidence and truly reasoned logic to come to conclusion rather than chalk it up to an unseen entity, that to me is far more rational given the world we live in

 

[FreightTrain]

Well, everyone has their own opinion of rationality and ignorance. I never stated a belief in an all-powerful God. I only stated that I have more respect for agnostics than atheists. Atheists are stubborn and believe in non-belief. Believers and agnostics alike agree that maybe they have an answer and maybe they don't, but they're still on the journey and haven't given up hope. Also, if being an atheist is open-minded than I'm a negro, white supremist!!

 

[Panacea]

I am working my way into my "atheism", so to speak, which annoys me because I shouldn't even have to identify as an atheist...I don't identify as an Aunicornist, or have to defend the other things I don't believe in...so...but anyway I digress.

Let's start with actually talking about theism, because a lot of people misrepresent the terms...it works on a system of belief and knowledge: there's theist (belief in god/s) and atheist (no belief in god/s) THEN there is agnostic (I don't believe we can know if god exists) and gnostic (I do believe we can know if god exists).

Now. I'm a gnostic atheist. I think it is possible to know if a god exists (sounds pretty open minded, no?) I just feel we just don't have that knowledge yet, and I have no idea if we ever will. For me, it's the best bet just to assume no god as we currently define it exists, and to keep a curious mind open to evidence and discovery. I'm of the suspicion "god" is a man made concept.

Ok now the mud slinging:
Lots and lots of theists I have known have claimed atheists are mean and cocky. Then some go off about how they're going to hell, are baby eaters, kiddy fuckers, a-moral, miserable (down-trodden), close minded, cruel, rude. Hm pot, kettle, hai.

There's half a point there, and then just a bunch of horse shit. For the point, I will say, I know a lot of atheists who aren't quite as emotional as theists. When debating theism, there is this divide that goes much further than just "yes god" or "no god" it's literally that theism has saved someone's life, and they love their god more than their own children , etc wow powerful stuff versus the frame of mind an atheist (and "agnostics" sometimes too, seriously, it's not just us) has, which is...why the fuck does the Vatican protect molesters, why is religion so oppressive, what the fuck would anyone be doing supporting this, etc.

This is hugely difficult to reconcile. For one side, the good outweighs the bad, and for the other side, the bad outweighs the good, regardless of how "open minded" a person is.

As for the cocky atheist thing, it is there in highly intellectual and brand new atheists, I think. Really intellectual people are cocky because they're really intellectual. Even the most humble bumble, if they're smarter than most people, they're gonna seem cocky. I'm cool with that. You're smart, you work hard to know things about science, go you. To a new atheist, the realization that there really is no reason to believe in god is an exciting one. Then, the realization the evidence is on your side (since one cannot prove a negative) can give people a little bit too much confidence.

But there's where I will stop, because the rest of the insults are just...well, fuel to the fire. When someone who believes in something you feel can't be proven is constantly making judgments about your character and your future after death, it kind of makes tolerance and respect difficult.

Also, I have a feeling "open minded" is just code for "believe in what cannot be proven". Not everyone wants to make that leap in logic, but it doesn't mean they are closed off to arguments and new information.

 

[itsmeJonB]

I'm a gnostic atheist in that sense. If proof points to its existence then there would be no denying it. But since there's no proof, in my opinion I remain an atheist

 

[Diggin Deep]

Throwing insults back and forth at one belief or the other gets us nowhere fast. If anything, it pushes us even farther from being open-minded to another side of things.

What is sad and we all do it at one point or another - is that "Christians" put all non-believers in a category and non-believers put all "Christians" in a category - "guility by association". I've been guilty of this myself whether I voiced it or not. I was humbled today and realize that our stance or belief one way or the other can come across as patronizing and sometimes just insulting. Unfortunately, we can't always help it, regardless if that was our intent or not.

One must understand that not all Christians, Catholics, etc. have the same views and opinions regarding Christianity and God. That is why there so many different denominations and even non-denomination churches. One must also understand that there are many different levels of atheism and agnosticism. Not all believers are preaching hell, fire and brimstone, nor do all believers look down upon non-believers. Not all non-believers are casting fantasy, scapegoat Jesus, and personal beast of burden insults at people who do believe.

The best a Christian can do is offer an alternative to an atheistic view. The best a Christian can hope for is that they offered the alternative in a way that Jesus would have...not insulting, not "I'm better than you", but compassionately. And all of those who read or heard would have a little food for thought - new information that they can do with what they choose.

:horse

 

[Tim]

I'm a gnostic atheist in that sense. If proof points to its existence then there would be no denying it. But since there's no proof, in my opinion I remain an atheist

:homo:


And I also find it funny that I don't ever need to defend that I don't believe in the existence of unicorns. If I saw one, then I would believe. But as I sit here right now, I will say that I do not believe in them. Does that make me close minded or arrogant?