Proof of God - for or against???

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Diggin Deep

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This is where we are missing each other. You talk about testing faith yet that is impossible to anyone except he who holds the faith. It is not testable by peer review, meaning your faith it is a personal matter.
This brings me right back to my point that religion, spirituality, faith, etc. is very personal.
Science is universal. It's a truth held by all and if you have any doubts, you can test the results for yourself. The tests are repeatable by all who question it's validity.

I'm talking about testing the core of one's belief that leads to their faith. I'm not talking about personal experiences...you can't test that, it's impossible. There is evidence that supports my belief and because of that evidence, I develop faith.

Neither faith or science can give us absolute truth, but you can test the validity of the evidence for both.

Without quoting everything I posted yesterday, I don't know a better way of explaining my opinion on this :( And I have a feeling that we are both "face palming" over this. :surrender
 
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Panacea

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Oh really? So you can test Quantum Electrodynamics yourself? You would have no idea if those equations are right and if they line up with the real world. You have to rely on others to do that for you. You believe in things you don't understand. You only believe them because others told you they are true. You aren't capable of knowing for yourself. You are going on faith. You could never tell yourself if there is an error in them.

I appreciate this way of looking at it, though I don't think I agree with the implication fully but I haven't quite figured out why. :p
 

Tim

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Oh really? So you can test Quantum Electrodynamics yourself? You would have no idea if those equations are right and if they line up with the real world. You have to rely on others to do that for you. You believe in things you don't understand. You only believe them because others told you they are true. You aren't capable of knowing for yourself. You are going on faith. You could never tell yourself if there is an error in them.

Nope, I wouldn't know where to begin testing that. But there are those who can.

But there is plenty I can test that within my capabilities. Science doesn't only encompass the weird and bizarre aspects of our universe. Science can be as simple as determining how much salt you can dissolve in water. Determining the boiling point of water at sea level. How many pounds of water is in a 1 gallon container.
That is just as much science as quantum electrodynamics is.
Why you felt the need to jump to the extreme is beyond me.

It doesn't matter if I weigh 1 gallon of water here in the states or if Helga does in the Ukraine, the results will be the same and verifiable. That is something you cannot do with faith.
 

Pet Sounds

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Nope, I wouldn't know where to begin testing that. But there are those who can.

But there is plenty I can test that within my capabilities. Science doesn't only encompass the weird and bizarre aspects of our universe. Science can be as simple as determining how much salt you can dissolve in water. Determining the boiling point of water at sea level. How many pounds of water is in a 1 gallon container.
That is just as much science as quantum electrodynamics is.
Why you felt the need to jump to the extreme is beyond me.

It doesn't matter if I weigh 1 gallon of water here in the states or if Helga does in the Ukraine, the results will be the same and verifiable. That is something you cannot do with faith.
That isn't science. That is weights and measures. Bookkeeping. The scientific principles behind those events, such as osmosis and thermodynamics, I doubt you could give a good critique or explanation of. That is the real science of those things.
 

HK

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I'm just going to throw this out there. I don't know much about thermodynamics, for example, at this moment in time.

However, if I chose to study it, it is completely likely that I would eventually understand it fully.

Just because a layperson doesn't have a deep understanding of every single scientific theory or breakthrough, doesn't mean they never could and therefore science is about faith. If you decide to educate yourself, anyone can test those theories for themselves. Not to mention, there are already thousands of scientists who do exactly that.
 

Pet Sounds

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You realize that the best scientists that got us to the moon, like Von Braun, clearly believed in God? That Buzz Aldrin took Communion on Apollo 11? The Catholic Clergy alone has given us Genetics, The Big Bang, and Heliocentrism.

It was science that engineered those airplanes too. Religion doesn't build airplanes.

Just another poorly thought out atheist meme.
 

Panacea

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I'm just going to throw this out there. I don't know much about thermodynamics, for example, at this moment in time.

However, if I chose to study it, it is completely likely that I would eventually understand it fully.

Just because a layperson doesn't have a deep understanding of every single scientific theory or breakthrough, doesn't mean they never could and therefore science is about faith. If you decide to educate yourself, anyone can test those theories for themselves. Not to mention, there are already thousands of scientists who do exactly that.

Yay, this is the piece I was missing!! :woot:
Great point, HK
 

Pet Sounds

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I'm just going to throw this out there. I don't know much about thermodynamics, for example, at this moment in time.

However, if I chose to study it, it is completely likely that I would eventually understand it fully.

Just because a layperson doesn't have a deep understanding of every single scientific theory or breakthrough, doesn't mean they never could and therefore science is about faith. If you decide to educate yourself, anyone can test those theories for themselves. Not to mention, there are already thousands of scientists who do exactly that.

What if you studied it and came to the conclusion it was wrong? Then what? This hypothetical, along with your hypothetical, is moot because the fact is you haven't studied them.

There are millions of religious people who say their religion is true. Many more than scientists who say their science is true. Why not believe them? You don't understand either but one side has larger numbers. And you seem to think numbers are important.
 

HK

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What if you studied it and came to the conclusion it was wrong? Then what? This hypothetical, along with your hypothetical, is moot because the fact is you haven't studied them.

There are millions of religious people who say their religion is true. Many more than scientists who say their science is true. Why not believe them? You don't understand either but one side has larger numbers. And you seem to think numbers are important.

Science may well be proved wrong in some areas but the beauty of it is just that - it can be constantly tested and retested in the light of new information. Religion cannot be tested, even if you come to have belief after not having any to start with.

Anyone can, in theory become a scientist. All it requires is the desire to do so, so in theory absolutely anyone could test scientific hypotheses for themselves if they developed enough of an interest. However, no matter how religious you are, there is still no way to test the theory of God.

My point about there being thousands of scientists was not to do with a majority automatically being right - it was only to say that there many, many people out there who do understand and can test science. Not one of the religious people out there, even if they are in the majority, can test for God and prove beyond all reasonably doubt whether or not he exists.
 

BornReady

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You can't necessarily test faith. But you can test the evidence and beliefs that are the foundation of faith and science.
It is clear how a scientist can test a scientific hypothesis proposed by another scientist. It is not at all clear how someone could test a religious belief held by someone else. Will you give an example?

You believe in things you don't understand. You only believe them because others told you they are true.
I trust the statement of a scientist about science more than I trust the statement of a believer about God. This is because scientists follow the scientific method. Believers can't follow the scientific method. If they could and did then I would find them more credible.
 
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