Proof of God - for or against???

[Diggin Deep]

Let’s turn to Christian faith. Let’s compare and contrast what the Christian faith can and cannot do. One of the things the Christian faith does really well is establish the fact that we are creatures and that we have been created. So it gives us insight to the relationship we have with our creator. I think that is really key. If you look at the account in Genesis, it’s not really about the science behind how God created the heavens and the earth how He created us. It’s that He did it, He did it in His image and that we are His creatures.

That’s the key to Genesis – putting us in a context as to who we are in relation to our creator. If you go searching for mechanisms, you are going to be disappointed. Though I want to point out that what is written in scripture is actually very consistent with what science has described as what the process might have been in terms of the sequence of different life forms appearing. Also note that, for example, the description scripture gives us of our relationship to the earth is exactly what the theory of evolution says, basically we are all dirt.

Another thing that the Christian faith can do is actually give us some insight into the human experience. I’ve referred to this as something science can’t do, but the Christian faith can give us some handle on, “Why we are here, What this is all about, and what we are suppose to be doing”. Every situation that you could find yourself in as a human being, has already been dealt with in some manner in scripture. I think that is wonderful evidence to the ultimate truth of The Bible.

Another thing that the Christian faith can do is actually give us insight into the moral realm. It is interesting, because even though scientists, including Richard Dawkins in his book would make a valiant attempt to come up with an argument about morality. It actually falls flat, because scientists are not able to come up with any basis for saying why you should or shouldn’t do any particular thing. It basically says evolution has just brought you to the point where at some point it is valuable for you to be a certain way, so that is why you do. But science doesn’t create any sense of true morality. And yet everyone is born with an understanding, not only that there is good and evil, but that there is injustice in the world and that the world should be different than it is. That understanding does not come out of science. It only comes out of some understanding that is putting us in context. In this case, I think The Bible is very clear about the fall of humanity and what it has done regarding our relationship with God.

 

[Diggin Deep]

What about what the Christian faith cannot do? One thing is that it can’t give answers on how the universe works. This is really important, because those who look to scripture as a way of trying to understand how the universe works are going to be very disappointed. If you want to learn calculus, engineering principles or principles of dynamics – you aren’t going to find it in scripture. Some people might say, “Well that stuff doesn’t matter then, right? The only thing that matters is what we find in scripture.”

Those same people would be very happy to go to a physician’s office and be treated for some illness. On what basis is the physician treating you? I’m not denying the importance of prayer, but most people aren’t very happy if they go into a doctor’s office and the doctor says, “Yeah I think I figured out what you have. You have terminal cancer, but I’ll pray for you.” Well that’s good and no one is going to reject that, but you probably are not going to pay the bill when you get it. You have a lot of other people who are willing to pray for you, but fewer people who actually have some knowledge that they gained of how the human body works and what kind of treatments may be effective.

 

[Diggin Deep]

So, Christian faith cannot answer questions about the universe works. It can’t answer all of our questions. If we expect scripture to be able to answer all of our questions or science for that matter, we are going to be very disappointed. We have to be careful not to read answers into scripture that are not there. I think this is one of the dangers of the literalist’s understanding of scripture – that we feel overly confident that we really know what the truth is based on a poor understanding of what the actual context is.

Another thing that the Christian faith is not able to do is it can’t be traded off. I can’t give the faith that I have to you and say here is the formula and you need to use it. This is something that every individual has to work out on their own. This is serious business. It’s not just something that because you sit in a church on Sunday or because you follow through with a particular process of doctrine, you are magically transformed into this person of faith. So it is really based upon this very serious question about looking at the evidence, establishing a basis of belief and then living based on that belief.

Another restriction that the Christian faith has, as well as science is that we can’t have absolute truth. There is an importance of doubt – first admitting that we have doubt, second of all wrestling with that doubt, and then to be honest with ourselves as well as those around us. When we have questions about the Christian faith or science, we admit that upfront. We say, “Look, I’m not absolutely sure about this”. If you get evidence to the contrary, you have to start processing it and say, “How it fits with everything else?” You can only make some sense of the world based on that.

 

[Diggin Deep]

An example of creation vs evolution which is a common thing we hear in the media, to me is kind of a non-issue, in the sense that I don’t care about how God went about doing creation in terms of my faith. To whether it was a long process, an evolutionary process that I think the evidence actually supports, I don’t look into science with any dependence upon that being true or false. And nor do I go into my faith as a believer under the assumption that it had to happen a certain way. In other words, I can have a belief of creation vs evolution, but it is not essential to how I live or what I do on a daily basis. It’s not a faith based process. I’m not actually having to decide what I do today based on whether the theory of evolution is true or whether there was a literal creation within seven days.

The point for me is that God did it and that is the claim that I need to look at. When I start looking at the evidence of this as I did when I was struggling with my faith and belief in God, I came across a challenge to really study the claims of The Bible in a systematic way. I was actually kind of embarrassed of the fact that I was maintaining this agnostic position without ever really looking at the evidence.

 

[Diggin Deep]

As I was studying scripture, I came across this scripture in Romans 1:20 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

In other words, Paul is saying that if you look at this amazing creation (the sunrise, sunset, night sky, constellations, etc), it’s very difficult not to walk away with some sense of awe, a sense of wonder. Even Richard Dawkins makes the statement in his book that this is a common experience. We have to admit that there is something beyond us just because it’s so overwhelming. That evidence, however, is something we often overlook. For example, on my senior trip in high school, we were in Washington DC. We went to the National Gallery of Art. I noticed that when in there, none of the security guards were looking at the art at all, even though so many visitors were really engrossed in it. They were just standing around people watching. What I realized is that they see this stuff every day. We become immunized to the beauty of creation because of our familiarity with it – we take it for granted.

 

[Diggin Deep]

So I got to the point where it seemed reasonable to believe that there was a creator – a god. Then I was caught short when I came across this passage in James:

James 2:19 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Maybe it’s one of those things that are just kind of obvious. Even the majority of people, at least in the United States when asked if they believe in God, say yes. It’s not one of those things that people ordinarily question. So it seemed to me that there is something else going on and decided to look at further. I came across this passage in 1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:14 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

That really took me back. You mean I just can’t believe that he is a good teacher, good moralist, and so forth? Paul’s writing here is saying, no, that’s not an option. If you want to buy into this belief system – the central claim of Christianity is that Jesus died and came back to life. It’s on that basis that His preaching and the other claims that He made can be trusted, because He demonstrated His authority over creation and over death. All of a sudden, I had to really look at that evidence.

What kind of evidence is there? It turns out that there is quite a bit of evidence, not just in scripture, but evidence outside of The Bible, in terms of the historical fact of Jesus – His life as well as His death. And I would argue for His resurrection, because the impact that it had on those who knew Him was tremendous. To the point of people running away when Jesus was first arrested and now being willing to die for whatever had happened.

 

[Diggin Deep]

So I started thinking that maybe this was true. I started praying on that basis for God to make it clear to me that it was true. I started using that as a basis of developing a belief that this was true. And then the key was acting on that belief, exhibiting faith. So starting to act on the assumption that this in fact true, that the claim that Jesus was who He said He was, was something that I could base my life on. And essentially, that’s what I’ve been doing.

 

[Diggin Deep]

In conclusion, The Bible…I completely believe in The Bible. I believe it is the inherent word of God. What I don’t believe is that any of us have an inherent understanding of the word of God. In that result I can’t say for absolute certainty, based upon the evidence that I know how, for example, how creation occurred. I think the evidence goes against any strict literalist interpretation of Genesis in terms of seven, twenty four hour days. But, He could have done it however He wanted to do it…He’s God. And it should not be central to our faith of whether He created the world over a long period of time or just snapped His fingers.

I think this is really important, at the risk of some people branding me a heretic. There are a lot of people who have a ship wrecked faith and become very bitter toward the concept of God (atheists, agnostics, and so forth). Because somewhere along in their life they were fed a bill of faith goods which meant you have to be certain and nail down everything. Then all of a sudden someone introduces a fossil and it’s like “oh my goodness” – The Bible is wrong. I think it’s important to know that one of things we need to know is that hundreds of years before Darwin ever came along, there were Christian greats such as Saint Augustine that said Genesis 1 did not need to be taken as twenty four hour literal days six thousand years ago. It’s not a response to Darwin, it’s a valid interpretation that many spiritual greats have had.

 

[Panacea]

I will admit, DD, I didn't read all of this. I hope to, out of respect for your opinion and contribution...

My thought about science versus faith is just that they are both necessary and existing portions of the human mind. The key, in my opinion, is the amount of power we place in either of them. They are both prone to error, but I admire science's commitment to finding it and removing it the best it can.

Every day faith is prone to error, and often adjusts for error (I trusted Jim, he cheated, I don't trust him). Religious faith, however often (but I'm sure not always, depending on the person) claims there can be no error, which is just a decision people have to make and if they can live with it, that is fine and within their right.

I do not demonize faith for it's imprecision. I just don't respect the kind of faith that demonizes groups of people who are otherwise fairly healthy for society, just not to the god with which we have no proof. It completely blows my mind, is all.

 

[Tim]

After reading all the way through, I see a few problems with you analysis.
You compare science and faith and show their similarities. While they may have some of the same processes it all breaks down at the most important part... peer review an being able to duplicate the results. This difference makes science verifiable while faith becomes subjective. Your faith can never be tested by someone else. You can only share your experience with faith.
Your Christian faith is a very personal one that cannot be tested or repeated by others because it is a very personal experience.
Here's the other problem I have... You keep referring to Christian faith. What about all of the other faiths out there? On your personal journey you have found Christian faith to resonate with you. But what about the billions of other people who have Muslim faith, Hindu faith, Chinese traditional religious faith, Sikhism faith, Shinto, Judaism, or any of the other religions and their faith? Those who are as steadfast in their faith as you are in yours.
Where faith is very personal, science transcends all religions, cultures and beliefs.

 

[Diggin Deep]

I will admit, DD, I didn't read all of this. I hope to, out of respect for your opinion and contribution...

My thought about science versus faith is just that they are both necessary and existing portions of the human mind. The key, in my opinion, is the amount of power we place in either of them. They are both prone to error, but I admire science's commitment to finding it and removing it the best it can.

Every day faith is prone to error, and often adjusts for error (I trusted Jim, he cheated, I don't trust him). Religious faith, however often (but I'm sure not always, depending on the person) claims there can be no error, which is just a decision people have to make and if they can live with it, that is fine and within their right.

I do not demonize faith for it's imprecision. I just don't respect the kind of faith that demonizes groups of people who are otherwise fairly healthy for society, just not to the god with which we have no proof. It completely blows my mind, is all.

Thanks for making an attempt and I hope you find time to read the rest of it. After all, it is just my opinion and contribution to my faith

I completely agree that both science and faith are necessary portions of our lives. We can't place too much power in either without a personal investigation. We have to exercise both our spirituality and our brain. We have to decide for ourselves what is sufficient evidence.

I also agree that there is no respect to be had for people on either side of the fence who demonize another for their belief, view, opinion, or life style. Both sides of the argument are guilty of this and I'm sorry that you have had to experience it.

 

[Panacea]

Thanks for making an attempt and I hope you find time to read the rest of it. After all, it is just my opinion and contribution to my faith

I completely agree that both science and faith are necessary portions of our lives. We can't place too much power in either without a personal investigation. We have to exercise both our spirituality and our brain. We have to decide for ourselves what is sufficient evidence.

I also agree that there is no respect to be had for people on either side of the fence who demonize another for their belief, view, opinion, or life style. Both sides of the argument are guilty of this and I'm sorry that you have had to experience it.

I think it's one thing to publicly criticize someone's beliefs (I don't mind at all, honestly...people can go off and say whatever they want. In the words of RuPaul, "what someone else thinks about me is none of my damn business", but the policy making and the societal norms that devastate those out of favor with the majority's beliefs in a spiritual world feels unacceptable to me and I therefore sort of cast the concern in their direction.

 

[Diggin Deep]

After reading all the way through, I see a few problems with you analysis.
You compare science and faith and show their similarities. While they may have some of the same processes it all breaks down at the most important part... peer review an being able to duplicate the results. This difference makes science verifiable while faith becomes subjective. Your faith can never be tested by someone else. You can only share your experience with faith. Your Christian faith is a very personal one that cannot be tested or repeated by others because it is a very personal experience.

You are correct - you can only share your experience with faith. That is why I wrote that the Christian faith cannot be traded off. There is not specific formula for it that everyone can follow. However, you can investigate the the foundation of faith. You can look at the evidence of why someone believes a certain way, establish your own basis of belief and then live based on that belief.

Here's the other problem I have... You keep referring to Christian faith. What about all of the other faiths out there? On your personal journey you have found Christian faith to resonate with you. But what about the billions of other people who have Muslim faith, Hindu faith, Chinese traditional religious faith, Sikhism faith, Shinto, Judaism, or any of the other religions and their faith? Those who are as steadfast in their faith as you are in yours.
Where faith is very personal, science transcends all religions, cultures and beliefs.

The title of this thread is "Proof of God - for or against???" - God being "The Bible" God, . I explained earlier in this thread of why I don't believe that other "faiths" are valid based on the conclusions I made based on their contradictions and lack of actual evidence. Again, that's just my opinion. Feel free to investigate the basis of those faiths for yourself.

 

[Tim]

You are correct - you can only share your experience with faith. That is why I wrote that the Christian faith cannot be traded off. There is not specific formula for it that everyone can follow. However, you can investigate the the foundation of faith. You can look at the evidence of why someone believes a certain way, establish your own basis of belief and then live based on that belief.



The title of this thread is "Proof of God - for or against???" - God being "The Bible" God, . I explained earlier in this thread of why I don't believe that other "faiths" are valid based on the conclusions I made based on their contradictions and lack of actual evidence. Again, that's just my opinion. Feel free to investigate the basis of those faiths for yourself.

I am only showing the major difference between faith and science. I am not trying to discredit or endorse either.

Faith and science are not the same, hell, I don't think they compete with each other any more than what type of house you live in and what type of car you drive to work in do. They are not the same thing nor do they seek the same answers. If I need to determine what size alternator I need for my project car, I will rely on science and not ask a priest.

As to the part about your Christian faith vs other faiths...
I am not trying to question whether your particular faith is correct or not in my statement. I was simply pointing out that religious faith can have very different meanings to different people while science is universal. I was putting a fine point on the differences of faith and science and why they aren't comparable.

 

[Diggin Deep]

In the words of RuPaul, "what someone else thinks about me is none of my damn business"

That's a good quote. I often worry too much about what other people think about me or how they perceive me. As a Christian, we are called to be a witness of Christ, both in our speech and our actions. So there is some sort of need for me to concern myself with how I carry myself. However, I shouldn't beat myself up and wallow in self pity over it.

As far as my faith goes...I use to be one of those people who lashed out when my faith was attacked. I was just a baby then, in terms of faith. I had no real and personal knowledge of The Bible. I didn't really know anything about the God I believed in...I just believed. Thus, leading to me falling away. I can say for certain that now, I have a strong faith in God - one that I did not know was possible. I have an unshakable foundation with Him.

So now, I can approach discussions of religion and my faith much more maturely. Even when certain people try to undermine the core of my faith. All I can do is offer my side of the story. I definitely can't force it on anyone, nor will I persecute those who don't believe in the God that I do.

 

[FreightTrain]

After reading all the way through, I see a few problems with you analysis.
You compare science and faith and show their similarities. While they may have some of the same processes it all breaks down at the most important part... peer review an being able to duplicate the results. This difference makes science verifiable while faith becomes subjective. Your faith can never be tested by someone else. You can only share your experience with faith.
Your Christian faith is a very personal one that cannot be tested or repeated by others because it is a very personal experience.
Here's the other problem I have... You keep referring to Christian faith. What about all of the other faiths out there? On your personal journey you have found Christian faith to resonate with you. But what about the billions of other people who have Muslim faith, Hindu faith, Chinese traditional religious faith, Sikhism faith, Shinto, Judaism, or any of the other religions and their faith? Those who are as steadfast in their faith as you are in yours.
Where faith is very personal, science transcends all religions, cultures and beliefs.

Excellent line of questioning! NOW, you're thinking outside the box! :thumbup

 

[FreightTrain]

I think it's one thing to publicly criticize someone's beliefs (I don't mind at all, honestly...people can go off and say whatever they want. In the words of RuPaul, "what someone else thinks about me is none of my damn business", but the policy making and the societal norms that devastate those out of favor with the majority's beliefs in a spiritual world feels unacceptable to me and I therefore sort of cast the concern in their direction.

Nobody's beliefs need ever be crammed down others' throats! Be it Christianity, Communism, Nationalism, Footballism, Soccerism, Jihadism, Terrorism, Fascism, Nazism, Egocentrism, etc.!

 

[Diggin Deep]

I am only showing the major difference between faith and science. I am not trying to discredit or endorse either.

Faith and science are not the same, hell, I don't think they compete with each other any more than what type of house you live in and what type of car you drive to work in do. They are not the same thing nor do they seek the same answers. If I need to determine what size alternator I need for my project car, I will rely on science and not ask a priest.

As to the part about your Christian faith vs other faiths...
I am not trying to question whether your particular faith is correct or not in my statement. I was simply pointing out that religious faith can have very different meanings to different people while science is universal. I was putting a fine point on the differences of faith and science and why they aren't comparable.

I do understand your points...I really do Faith and science are different. However, I think you can compare them; at least the methods. You can't necessarily test faith. But you can test the evidence and beliefs that are the foundation of faith and science.

Once you have tested something, your form some sort of conclusion or belief. Once you act on that conclusion, you will get feed back as to whether that action was reasonable or not. This now becomes a part of your knowledge and with this you now have additional evidence that will support future action, future tests.

This is both true in testing a belief (basis of faith) and science.

 

[Tim]

I do understand your points...I really do Faith and science are different. However, I think you can compare them; at least the methods. You can't necessarily test faith. But you can test the evidence and beliefs that are the foundation of faith and science.

Once you have tested something, your form some sort of conclusion or belief. Once you act on that conclusion, you will get feed back as to whether that action was reasonable or not. This now becomes a part of your knowledge and with this you now have additional evidence that will support future action, future tests.

This is both true in testing a belief (basis of faith) and science.

This is where we are missing each other. You talk about testing faith yet that is impossible to anyone except he who holds the faith. It is not testable by peer review, meaning your faith it is a personal matter.
This brings me right back to my point that religion, spirituality, faith, etc. is very personal.
Science is universal. It's a truth held by all and if you have any doubts, you can test the results for yourself. The tests are repeatable by all who question it's validity.

 

[Pet Sounds]

This is where we are missing each other. You talk about testing faith yet that is impossible to anyone except he who holds the faith. It is not testable by peer review, meaning your faith it is a personal matter.
This brings me right back to my point that religion, spirituality, faith, etc. is very personal.
Science is universal. It's a truth held by all and if you have any doubts, you can test the results for yourself. The tests are repeatable by all who question it's validity.

Oh really? So you can test Quantum Electrodynamics yourself? You would have no idea if those equations are right and if they line up with the real world. You have to rely on others to do that for you. You believe in things you don't understand. You only believe them because others told you they are true. You aren't capable of knowing for yourself. You are going on faith. You could never tell yourself if there is an error in them.