Prayer. Why is God selective?

[All Else Failed]

Country music is just....anti-music to me I guess. :tongue:

 

[IntruderLS1]

If god was omniscient he would've known man would fall away from him if given free will. So why did he give us free will only to punish us for it?

I don't see us as being punished for exercising our free will. We are certainly capable of choosing paths in life that don't have happy endings, but that isn't a punishment so much as a choice.

If a Christian jumps in front of a bus, his death is not a punishment, it is a consequence of a very poor choice....

I read an interesting article a bit ago, that puts to paper much more clearly what I'm trying to say. Hold on a sec, I'll go grab it.

**EDIT**

Jimeny!! I didn't realize it was so long. Hopefully you're not too turned off by the 6 or 7 minute read. I guess it just can't be explained well in short words.

LOL Hopefully some of you guys are culturally advanced enough to see the relevance of the authors excellent choice of TV shows!! :tongue:

 

[IntruderLS1]

SO WHY DOESN'T GOD ANSWER EVERY PRAYER?​

God does answer every prayer but sometimes the answer is "No!" We can be grateful that the answer isn't always "yes." Oscar Wilde pointed out that when the gods want to punish us, they answer our prayers. Another humorist, (I am afraid I forgot whom), pointed out that it would be most inconvenient, to say the least, if God got around to answering every single prayer we ever prayed. Imagine, said this funny man, what would happen if you grew up from being a cute little kid, and became a successful suburban businessman. Then one day you looked out your window and there was a pony on your front lawn! We can be grateful God is not some cosmic Santa Claus answering every single prayer of every good being from here to the edge of the Universe!

I have a friend who is a Deist, at best. He is willing to believe vaguely that some Being may have wound up the Universe long ago, but he does not believe in a Kind Omnipresent Being who ever answers prayers today. One day my friend came to my house in a jolly mood. A mockingbird had stood next to a sprinkler at the fellow's house and thrashed his wings and made sprinkling noises. He obviously wanted the sprinkler to give him a bath. My friend was laughing at this, "silly bird practicing sympathetic magic." I laughed too, but I pointed out, "But you did turn the sprinkler on for him, didn't you? Sheepishly my friend replied, "Well, yes..."

Is there any wonder that sometimes our prayers aren't answered? We know even less about how the mind of God works than the mockingbird knew about Human brains and sprinkler systems! But even so, sometimes, if we thrash our wings and make sprinkling noises long enough and loud enough, we might get a shower.

Experiments and anecdotal evidence seem to show there is no connection between how moral the subject of the experiment is and how well prayer works. This surprises me. I would have thought otherwise. But history bears this out. A famous and charming faith healer named Kathryn Kuhlman had many successes (and many self admitted failures). She died of health problems herself. During her meetings many proclaimed themselves healed. but the most faithful and seemingly most deserving often left unhealed. But once she had an Atheist walk into her meeting and proclaim, "I just felt myself healed. I came here only to make fun of you. I didn't believe in God when I walked in here, and I still don't. But I had a very painful medical condition and I just felt it go away!" Bernadette, the young lady who discovered Lourdes, died of TB after suffering terribly with it for years.

But if everybody lived forever there would be no room for evolution. If every model T that rolled off the assembly line were still chugging and sputtering up and down our roads, we would not be driving minivans and hybrid cars today. We would have no motivation to learn to solve our own problems if every problem were solved for us. It would be as if God were doing our homework for us, instead of letting us do it ourselves. Much of Human progress and learning would come to a halt due to lack of motivation.
If caribou can pray, they surely pray that God will spare them from the wolves. If wolves can pray they surely pray that God will make the caribou easy to catch. But the Inuit know that if wolves didn't weed out from the herd those caribou who are sick and weak, the whole herd would soon become sick and week. And if caribou were too easy to catch, evolution would quit favoring the survival of the fastest, strongest and most cunning wolves. God is God of both the caribou and the wolf, and God is God of both the Human race and all life, including microscopic life. What megalomaniacs we are to think God should only answer Human prayers! We cannot say at this point in time, if a person dies of TB that prayer did not work, for maybe in their own primitive way the TB germs were also praying. We just don't know these things yet.

Much of the suffering that goes on in this world happens, not because God does not answer our prayers, but because we don't answer God's prayers to US. In the Sermon on the Mount, God prayed to us to feed the hungry, and our planet produces plenty of food, but it often doesn't get to those who need it. This is because WE, not God, lack enough compassion. I saw a bumper sticker once that said, "Pray to God to end abortion." That is so wrong. It is not God who fails to find resources enough to aid pregnant desperate women. God prays to US to end abortion! Alcoholism? Through Paul God prayed that Humans would use alcohol only in moderation. Cancer, allergies and respiratory diseases? We can be sure God is praying to us to eliminate smoking and pollution from the Earth. Illegal drugs? Ditto. Aids and other sexually transmitted diseases? God prayed to us, "Thou shall not commit adultery," and to restrict sex to marriage. The cures for arthritis, cancer, and Alzheimer's disease may have died in the gas chambers of the holocaust. It was not God who fired up those chambers. He prayed to us, "Love one another," and "Thou shalt not Kill."

When healing fails to occur we must avoid the destructive habit of blaming the victim. There is no evidence, scientific or anecdotal, that there is any connection between morality, spirituality and healing, or even mental health and healing. Atheists have miraculous recoveries even without prayer. Saints die slow and painful deaths despite the anguished prayers of multitudes. Angry, violent people get well. The gentle fade away like dying violets. Carl Sagan quoted a Victorian statistician named Frances Galton who argued that the monarchy in England should be very long lived, because millions of people all over the world daily intone, "God save the Queen" (or King). But Galton showed that if anything they don't live as long as other wealthy and pampered aristocrats. The family tree of the royal family is heavily infested with the most agonizing and puzzling of illnesses and tragedies, and incredible amounts of suffering. To name just one sad example, multitudes praying "God save the Queen." did not save Queen Anne, from tragedy. She was pregnant 18 times but only gave birth to five live children. Only one lived to adulthood and he didn't live to see her coronation. But this is an unfair jab. How well would the monarchy be doing if they weren't being constantly prayed for? Comparing them to other kinds of aristocrats is not a good enough control. The monarchy is often the target of large amounts of hatred and envy as well as prayer. If positive prayers can bring about healing, then hatred might bring about the opposite effect. They get assassination attempts. They have cruel gossip spread about them. They sometimes have to make stressful decisions that affect the lives of millions. If you were studying the effect of a drug on a group of Humans you wouldn't assume that it was going to work on a group of heavily stressed world leaders the same way it would work on the wealthy unemployed. Also, monarchs are often in poor genetic health due to generations of inbreeding among the limited "acceptable choices," who comprise the small number of fellow royalty a potential monarch is allowed to marry. Due to inbreeding the Amish are having similar genetic difficulties. Praying for one's offspring is no substitute for avoiding making poor genetic choices in a mate and neither should it be. The rules for genetics, like gravity, must work for all or none, or the Universe becomes unfairly chaotic instead of predictable.
God heals whom He wills, and lets die whom He wills. He lets us suffer and I am quite sure He often suffers Himself. We think He's cruel sometimes but we don't know the whole picture. In the famous Classic Star Trek episode, "The City of the Edge of Forever," McCoy goes back in time and changes history for the worse by saving a street missionary named Edith Keeler from a violent death. She goes on and forms a peace movement that prevents the United States from entering World War II soon enough, so Germany invents the nuclear bomb first and wins the war. She was right about "peace being the way, but she was right at the wrong time." Kirk and Spock have to go back in time and prevent McCoy from saving Edith Keeler's life in order to set history straight again. Captain Kirk has to stop McCoy from saving her life even though he is deeply and profoundly in love with her. So Kirk grabs McCoy just as he is about to push Edith Keeler out of the way of a speeding automobile. Then he has to watch tearfully as she is impacted and thrown into the muddy street. Surely there must be times when God feels like Captain Kirk. He has to stand by and let the good die, and the evil live, and close his ears to the poignant prayers of the sick and suffering! We question God's love and integrity when He refuses to help the innocent and the sick and dying but He sees the alternate futures. We do not. Nevertheless it must be so hard to just stand by and do nothing, or even worse, to deliberately stop the McCoys of this world from saving the Edith Keelers of this world. I would not want to be God!

Sometimes God allows us to suffer to teach us something. Paul had a thorn in his flesh (2 Corinthians 12:7 through 12:9), that God would not take away though he prayed "three times." God told Paul that His grace was sufficient for him for power is perfected in weakness."

 

[IntruderLS1]

Sometimes prayer isn't answered because of evolution. Many of the things that make us suffer also make the Human race smarter. Those who are controlled by their neocortex instead of their glands avoid the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases. Those foresighted enough to wear seat belts are less likely to die in accidents; more likely to pass their genes on to the next generation. People who chose not to take drug, smoke, or drink number one in the first place don't become addicts, smokers and alcoholics. They make better parents. This is cruel only in the sense that the wolf is cruel to the caribou.

Maybe some prayers are not answered because if we don't have enough faith God can't answer them! We bulk at a God who can't do something. God is supposed to be able to do everything! But in Mark 6:22 it mentions that when Jesus went back to His home town of Nazareth, people were so incredulous that this person who had grown up among them had gained such a reputation as a miracle worker that, "Jesus could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands upon a few sick people and healed them. And he wondered at their unbelief."

There are so many unanswered questions about prayer. Are some people more talented at it than others? If so, is their talent genetic or the product of life's experiences? Is one system of religious belief more effective at achieving successful results than others? I would like to think that Born Again Christians have advantages with God here, but do they? Under certain circumstances does the devil heal too? All these things are testable under controlled conditions but they haven't been yet. The studies are yet to be done.
But if we prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that prayer does work, is the need for faith dead? We can prove that prayer works, but we can't prove Christ is God. If a prayer is answered, if someone appears with lightning and thunder on Mount Sinai. If a white robed being soars down out of the sky and proclaims himself, "I Am." is this the Lord Most High, or a lesser being claiming to be God? It is a big Universe. We have no idea what is out there or what isn't. The character Q on "Star Trek, the Next Generation" could pass for a Supreme Being to many people, for he could certainly rise from the dead Sunday morning. He just doesn't have the courage to be crucified for our sins Friday afternoon! How can God prove Himself? If He created a brand new Universe, right before our eyes, how do we know this is the Creator of OUR Universe and not some other universe-creator? How do we know the whole experience isn't being planted in our minds by some form of mind control?

Prayer can be proven to work, or not work, and even the fact this Universe was created, not just an accident, can be proven. The finely tuned variables of the Universe that the Anthropic Principles point out, do prove that, but it's always going to take faith to believe that Christ is God, or to believe in the integrity of God. It is to Jesus' credit that He was so reluctant to perform proof miracles. He knew the simple folks of the first century could be awed by a thunder blast, but not the sophisticates of a culture exposed to Tesla. Captain Kirk would never be awed by booming voices or sound and light shows. We can take comfort in the Bible's portrayal of God as a "Still Small Voice. " (Kings 19:11 to 19:12). And that, in the end, is the only way we can truly recognize Him. Those that have invited that Still Small Voice to live inside of them (and He must be invited in, He won't go where He's not invited for ethical reasons), will recognize whether or not any sound and light show is being put on for real, or if it is just the product of some alien version of Industrial Lights and Magic.

Should prayer be the only acceptable method of healing the way the Christian Scientists practice? Definitely NOT!!! In the New Testament over 20 different methods of healing were practiced or advocated by Christ. One example. Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan. When the good Samaritan found a mugging victim bloodied and bruised along the side of the road, he put the man on his own donkey, which was as close to an ambulance as they had back then, and he took the man to an inn, which was as close to a hospital as they had back then. He treated the man's wounds with oil and wine, which was state of the art high tech medicine back then. Indeed wine is still considered a good antibiotic. There is no record that the good Samaritan prayed for the mugging victim. Yet Jesus commended this guy and said that out of all who passed by, he and only he, was a good neighbor and that we should all do likewise for one another.

While taking a little girl to a church event I watched a strapping 15 year old pick his mother up, give her a big hug and swing her around affectionately. I commented to the mother how charming this was. She said, "You know, he is very sick. He has schizophrenia. he almost ended up in the hospital instead of coming to this event. He had gone off his medication, because he wanted to be healed directly by God. If he had done so, he might have been in a bad way by now. But his Pastor talked to him. He told the boy about the incident in the Gospel of John, Chapter 9, where Jesus made mud and put in a blind man's eyes to heal him. This shows God can use the things of the Earth to heal too. The Pastor told the boy to think of his medication as his "mud." I had always wondered why Jesus did that, instead of just healing the man directly. Now I understand it was a message to all of us whom God chooses to heal through earthly things.

 

[Reaver]

YouTube - Garth Brooks - Unanswered Prayers

i don't think God doesn't listen.

:wtf_anim:

And then, from God knows were, in comes Hotty to totally fucking derail a deep, thought provoking argument and conversation with Garth Brooks.

I think he knows more than we do, and there's definitely a reason people don't always get what they want. And if they did, we'd all win the lottery and live in mansions.

And then maybe we'd all be happy, and wouldn't be fighting and killing each other for money, possessions, etc.

I will come back to this when I got time. Exams are in a week time. Sorry buddy.

TRANSLATION: I got wned: and need some time to formulate another patchy, barren argument/explaination that lacks facts, logic and correct english grammar.

Give it up, I really don't think you can possibly win this argument.

 

[Reaver]

I really kinda question your source on this one Intruder... the biggest paragraph in the whole article is about an episode of Star Trek. For a great deal of the article, the author just gives out a bunch of "What if?" questions and then gives examples. The example that the second post ends on is kind of sketchy, as well. It sounds like he was using a story from the Bible to trick the boy into using his meds... I mean, it isn't a link to some Garth Brooks crap, and I know you obviously didn't write it, so I won't bother to take the time and try to pick it apart...but I still kinda question this article.

 

[IntruderLS1]

what, are you going to say his wrong actions were the right choices because not killing a bunch of men, women, and children would have resulted in a worse world for us? how do you know? is it that whatever happens is god's choice and since god's choice is always right whatever just happened must be a blessing from god?

my cat just died because it was sick. must be god's plan. good thing god blessed me with the death of my cat, it might have raped a baby or something. hmm, i'm feeling a bit sad now that my potentially baby-raping cat is dead, i better pray to make sure i stick with god's plan. *pray* oh noes! now my house just burned down from a forest fire. it's still for the best, though. gotta keep up with god's plan. hey, now no one is rebuilding my house for me. wtf? don't people realise their choice of free will to help me is part of god's plan? blah! now ted bundy is raping me. must be the free will, because god's plan wouldn't be this cruel.

I think it is a common mis-conception that when a Christian says things are in God's hands, they mean that everything is all blessings and divine providence even if it doesn't look that way.

There is good and bad in the world. We believe that in the end, God wins and Satan loses. That end picture is the "Greater good" we're talking about. This doesn't mean that it's going to be chocolates and roses our whole lives.

Another thing that is commonly mis-understood is that every action in the universe is believed by Christians to be the will of God... (and I'm sure this is indeed the view of many believers) This is not the case. God's will is God's will. It's the best one around, but is still His own. Your will, and my will belong to us. It was not God's will that Adam and Eve would fall. He asked them not to. It is not God's will that people rape and murder. He tells us to not do those things. His will for us is beautiful, but we have a choice to exercise our will to align with His and make the world a beautiful place, or go our own way, and see the damage we can cause. God didn't build us as robots, He built us as companions. Some of us choose to fulfill that role, and other choose to travel a different road.

I feel that the freedom we're given is a great sign of love. The only thing that separates us from being a naturally occurring chemical reaction on Earth, is the free will we've been given.

You have brought up the flood again, and mock the idea that it could have been for the greater good. You said "How do we know?" I think the answer to that is, we can never know. It's a question that has haunted Freshmen Ethics majors for all time. If you had foreknowledge that the baby in the crib next to you grows up to become the next Adolf Hitler, and will savagely murder 12 million people for no good reason, should you, or should you not end that innocent baby's life? ... Does killing that child make you a hero? Are you still a murderer? Would killing the child be called mis-guided?? What is the right thing to do? How can you possibly justify killing an innocent baby??

We don't know.

I believe that in the cosmic end, God is making the right choices, and His power is great enough to ensure we get to where we're going.

 

[IntruderLS1]

I read an interesting article a bit ago, that puts to paper much more clearly what I'm trying to say. Hold on a sec, I'll go grab it.

**EDIT**

Jimeny!! I didn't realize it was so long. Hopefully you're not too turned off by the 6 or 7 minute read. I guess it just can't be explained well in short words.

I really kinda question your source on this one Intruder... the biggest paragraph in the whole article is about an episode of Star Trek. For a great deal of the article, the author just gives out a bunch of "What if?" questions and then gives examples. The example that the second post ends on is kind of sketchy, as well. It sounds like he was using a story from the Bible to trick the boy into using his meds... I mean, it isn't a link to some Garth Brooks crap, and I know you obviously didn't write it, so I won't bother to take the time and try to pick it apart...but I still kinda question this article.

The article is meant to be thought provoking. It asks a lot of questions, and makes no effort to convince us the author knows all of the answers.

I posted it because it is much more clear than I've been able to put across so far.

I'm sorry if it looked like I was trying to take credit for writing it. I actually did give credit a few posts back up there.

 

[IntruderLS1]

The example that the second post ends on is kind of sketchy, as well.

Oh, I see the problem. Both posts are actually the same article. I just had to split it in two due to caracter limits.

My bad. I'll edit my earlier post for clarity tomorrow (Not right now, to give you a chance to check my time stamp. )

 

[HottyToddyChick]

And then maybe we'd all be happy, and wouldn't be fighting and killing each other for money, possessions, etc.

Don't you think there is someone somewhere praying to their god for someone to die? Look at the Middle East. They think they are doing "God's will", don't they?

 

[All Else Failed]

Don't you think there is someone somewhere praying to their god for someone to die? Look at the Middle East. They think they are doing "God's will", don't they?

Well to be fair almost all religions have people that pray for death.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

So maybe it is a good thing that God doesn't always say yes, or give people what they pray for?

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm not talking about bad things though. I'm talking about good prayer, "Help my father with cancer" prayer.

 

[Reaver]

Oh, I see the problem. Both posts are actually the same article. I just had to split it in two due to caracter limits.

My bad. I'll edit my earlier post for clarity tomorrow (Not right now, to give you a chance to check my time stamp. )

No, I got that, I just said it to differentiate which one of them I was talking about. Also, I understand you weren't taking credit for writing that, as per your statement: "I read ____ let me go find it" Sry for the confusion.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

I'm not talking about bad things though. I'm talking about good prayer, "Help my father with cancer" prayer.

Oh. In that case, I guess I just have to say that I believe everything happens for a reason. Someone mentioned throwing yourself in front of a bus and dying; yeah, you died for a stupid reason, but it was your time.

I don't know if this entirely relates, but I think that children that are mentally or physically impaired are born to women that God believes are strong enough and capable enough to overcome the challenge. Perhaps by not allowing someone's father to win his battle with cancer, God is preparing that person for something later down the road.

My sympathy goes out to anyone who's had a loved one lose that battle.

 

[memento_mori]

I will come back to this when I got time. Exams are in a week time. Sorry buddy.

i understand, i've been busy myself.

 

[memento_mori]

"So Why Doesn't God Answer Every Prayer?" was some good writing, intruder. so good i would have believed you wrote it :tongue:

power is perfected in weakness.

i hadn't heard this quote before. i like it.

i also appreciate the star trek references.

tho i'm going to have to comment on the last paragraph

The Pastor told the boy to think of his medication as his "mud." I had always wondered why Jesus did that, instead of just healing the man directly. Now I understand it was a message to all of us whom God chooses to heal through earthly things.

it's that kind of thinking that makes me reject "everything has a reason" and god's plan. stories are subjective. experiences are subjective. everything is subjective, and to say we finally understand the reason behind something, and that your conclusion is objective truth, is arrogant (as magic p would say). there's a lot to be said for knowing you can be wrong. obviously there are other interpretations someone can make about the passage, just because your conclusion is pretty and it matches up doesn't make it correct.

 

[icecuban]

"So Why Doesn't God Answer Every Prayer?" was some good writing, intruder. so good i would have believed you wrote it :tongue:



i hadn't heard this quote before. i like it.

i also appreciate the star trek references.

tho i'm going to have to comment on the last paragraph



it's that kind of thinking that makes me reject "everything has a reason" and god's plan. stories are subjective. experiences are subjective. everything is subjective, and to say we finally understand the reason behind something, and that your conclusion is objective truth, is arrogant (as magic p would say). there's a lot to be said for knowing you can be wrong. obviously there are other interpretations someone can make about the passage, just because your conclusion is pretty and it matches up doesn't make it correct.

it is good to be questionable, or else you have no filter. but when u say what u say, its like saying there is no truth at all. that since it is all subjective and individual, then nothing can be said on anything. even wanting to say something is wrong is an imposibility. i think if something is pretty, but in the sense of pretty f@$%ing awsome, then i say go with it, or else there will be nothing to hold on to. i know this has to do with "reasons", but as a whole, i think that if we could give a reason, it would be a good one. existance has created a mind that seeks reason....but does it do that for no reason? i doubt it

 

[memento_mori]

it is good to be questionable, or else you have no filter. but when u say what u say, its like saying there is no truth at all. that since it is all subjective and individual, then nothing can be said on anything. even wanting to say something is wrong is an imposibility. i think if something is pretty, but in the sense of pretty f@$%ing awsome, then i say go with it, or else there will be nothing to hold on to. i know this has to do with "reasons", but as a whole, i think that if we could give a reason, it would be a good one. existance has created a mind that seeks reason....but does it do that for no reason? i doubt it

it just bothers me how some people are so sure that everything has a reason, and that they know that reason, like if they were to run through life a second time and the exact same situation came up, they'd know the right choice because they'd "know" the reasons behind what happened.

it's a tough argument to make. i don't know exactly what you think you mean when you say everything has a reason, and the issues i have with one interpretation aren't necessarily there for another interpretation. another problem is in writing classes they teach you to write everything in objective voice. i try to imagine everyone saying "i think..." and "maybe..." and "but what the hell do i know?" inbetween their sentences, but i have to respond as if you're completely sure as to thats how it is.

we're a bit offtopic at this point, if anyone wants to take this into another thread i'll try and argue against the "everything happens for a reason" approach.

 

[icecuban]

i say, start it up brother, but i tell u what....i agree, ignorant people sound like u say, but dont stay away from saying what your god given brain has shown you to be true to the core, just because u think u may be looked at like u look at them, screw that. dont say, what the hell do i know, because some times u do know, which can be a great thing. again, i hate those that always say, "but i just know", and really dont spend their days, in and out, testing their beliefs, im with u