Prayer. Why is God selective?

[Magic P]

Please, enlighten me as to what values I'm lacking. Since you know me so well and all. Please, go ahead and judge. I'm sure that's exactly what Jesus would've wanted.

I am not judging anyone here and plz don't take what I say personally. Jesus wants the best of us and real Christians do forgive people because many have been prosecuted before them. We are glad cuz the great is the reward in heaven. I am not saying i forgive people for the reward in heaven I m just saying Jesus knows what we do, even in the dark. It's ok if you don't believe in it or anything. I don't mind discussing something constructive or answering your questions relating to Christianity but I have a feeling that at the end, people forget the logic and truth and will just turn into pure stubbornness.

 

[dt3]

I am not judging anyone here and plz don't take what I say personally. Jesus wants the best of us and real Christians do forgive people because many have been prosecuted before them. We are glad cuz the great is the reward in heaven. I am not saying i forgive people for the reward in heaven I m just saying Jesus knows what we do, even in the dark. It's ok if you don't believe in it or anything. I don't mind discussing something constructive or answering your questions relating to Christianity but I have a feeling that at the end, people forget the logic and truth and will just turn into pure stubbornness.

How am I supposed to not take it personally (and how is it not judgmental)when you insult the values of non-believers (which is a category I definitely fit into)? I'm proud of my values.

This is exactly the "Holier Than Thou" mentality that I hate about religion.

If you want to discuss something constructive, then tell me why you think what you believe is better than what I believe? Then explain to me how you thinking your beliefs are better is staying true to the whole "Judge not lest ye be judged yourself" part of the Bible.

 

[All Else Failed]

The way of life is different and the mind set is different. You can tell from this forum how different their values and attitudes are. I mean believers are very strong together, I can feel that there is like a bond between believers. No matter where they are, who they are and what they do, they share something special in common. It's like a family.

Thousands of years of religious and sectarian violence disagrees with you.


I'm a part of a family called "the human race". Perhaps you should look beyond religion.


Are Christian values better than other people's?

 

[dt3]

Thousands of years of religious and sectarian violence disagrees with you.


I'm a part of a family called "the human race". Perhaps you should look beyond religion.


Are Christian values better than other people's?

That's what I've heard...

 

[memento_mori]

Society is what we make of it to SOME EXTENT. Just like there is no absolute free will. At the end of the day, we are not God.

no, we are society. we can't control what others do, but we can control what we do. and that's 1/6,000,000,000 of the way there. it's a long road and it requires a little faith, but it's our best shot.

The way of life is different and the mind set is different. You can tell from this forum how different their values and attitudes are. I mean believers are very strong together, I can feel that there is like a bond between believers. No matter where they are, who they are and what they do, they share something special in common. It's like a family.

as you can see, atheists are like a family too. we unite in our distaste for people who say stupid things. we have ideas in common. it's like uniting with someone who's also a fan of your favorite sports team. or being friends with someone who goes to yoga with you.
christians are not anymore united than people who think blake should win american idol. and i'm not even getting into all the separations the christian church has had.

Because society is shit, is unreliable and unpredictable.

god's plan is shit, is unreliable and unpredictable. seriously, what are you relying on it for other than peace of mind? it's not going to change your mother getting cancer, or your friend being raped, or your odds of winning the lottery. can you predict god's plan? people seem to assume it's just for the best. if something horrible happens, you forgive god because it's part of his plan.
if people had half that forgiveness, or that relentless optimism, or the dedication to society, i think the world would be a better place. b/c then we'd be 2/6,000,000,000 of the way to changing the world.

it's ok, magic. i do believe in forgiveness in the name of progress, and i still love ya sweetcheeks.

 

[Magic P]

Well in my book, when you judge something, you need to look at the whole picture rather than one period of time. God has been faithful through all the centuries and the only times when we seemed to have disasters happening were mostly because of our own human faults. For instance, if you don't take care of the environment, it's gonna be polluted. Our society is unreliable cuz human beings are unreliable. It's true that we can put in our own effort to make things better and we definitely should but we need to get the whole race's attention so rather than prosecuting Christians or whoever, we can actually provide opportunities for them to do great things for the world and for God.

 

[IntruderLS1]

god's plan is shit, is unreliable and unpredictable. seriously, what are you relying on it for other than peace of mind? it's not going to change your mother getting cancer, or your friend being raped, or your odds of winning the lottery. can you predict god's plan? people seem to assume it's just for the best. if something horrible happens, you forgive god because it's part of his plan.

I believe that 99% of a situation is what we take from it. My dad (who I believe is an atheist) told me a story once.
<story time>
A man was invited onto a talk show to discuss the amazing luck he had experienced his whole life. You know it's bad when a talk show wants in on the action..... Well, the day before he goes on the show, he has a terrible fall down two flights of stairs. Breaks both of his legs, and one arm. When he is wheeled onto the stage the next day, unable to shake hands, or sit, or walk around as a normal person, the host has a bit of a chuckle about the irony of the moment. The injured man is totally un-deterred, he smiles, and waves to the crowd with his good arm. When the audience finally goes quiet, and the host opens the questions about incredible luck, the man practically comes out of his skin with excitement. "I know!!!" the man exclaimed. "What are the odds I would come through that accident without breaking my neck?!?!"
</story time>

Long story, short moral: Life is what we make of it. Religious people try to make the best of things, and are generally rewarded with the consequences of those decisions. If a person falls down, and refuses to get back up because there is no hope for tomorrow, how is their story gong to be different than that of the person who has great faith that there is a plan for his or her life, and tomorrow is going to be better?

I see nothing wrong with that. Religious beliefs aside, this is a great way to move through life. (IMO obviously)

if people had half that forgiveness, or that relentless optimism, or the dedication to society, i think the world would be a better place. b/c then we'd be 2/6,000,000,000 of the way to changing the world.

Rep for great wisdom. Couldn't have said it better myself if I'd been given a thousand years to think about it.

All of mans failings aside, would you agree that this is at least one goal of Christianity?

 

[BreakfastSurreal]

hmm nice post intruder...i dunno if you have ever read this but I used to have it posted up on my mirror:
Attitude
By Charles Swindoll

[FONT=verdana, geneva] The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life.

Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company... a church... a home.

The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude... I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.

And so it is with you... we are in charge of our attitudes.[/FONT]

 

[memento_mori]

All of mans failings aside, would you agree that this is at least one goal of Christianity?

i don't question that christianity tries to make the world better. i used to have a quote in my sig:

"there's no such thing as evil, only the failure to do good."

it's not that i think religion is wrong, i just don't think it's right. if that makes sense. praying is helpful to ease your mind in the situation, but it's not as good as searching through all your options and keep trying everything you can.

 

[memento_mori]

Well in my book, when you judge something, you need to look at the whole picture rather than one period of time. God has been faithful through all the centuries and the only times when we seemed to have disasters happening were mostly because of our own human faults. For instance, if you don't take care of the environment, it's gonna be polluted.

we're just getting out of a old testament vs new testament debate in the atheists thread. how about the story of the ark, the destruction of sodom, and the story of the two bears that slaughtered the 42 youths? those are claimed to be god's bidding.

Our society is unreliable cuz human beings are unreliable. It's true that we can put in our own effort to make things better and we definitely should but we need to get the whole race's attention so rather than prosecuting Christians or whoever, we can actually provide opportunities for them to do great things for the world and for God.

i'm still failing to see how god is more reliable. actual people seem easier to interact with, and therefore, more reliable. making society more reliable.

and i don't know what you're talking about with persecuting christians and providing opportunities. i don't see christians being denied opportunities to better the world or being persecuted.

 

[Magic P]

we're just getting out of a old testament vs new testament debate in the atheists thread. how about the story of the ark, the destruction of sodom, and the story of the two bears that slaughtered the 42 youths? those are claimed to be god's bidding.

i'm still failing to see how god is more reliable. actual people seem easier to interact with, and therefore, more reliable. making society more reliable.

and i don't know what you're talking about with persecuting christians and providing opportunities. i don't see christians being denied opportunities to better the world or being persecuted.

Why can't you count the good things in the old and new testament that God has done for people? Plus, there had always been a reason why God did what he did. God is unfailing and faithful and that's why he's reliable. If you didn't know how christian's opportunities of bettering the world being denied then you must do some more research. We can sit comfortable in a church, read a bible whenever we like and talk freely about Christianity because so many heroes have gone before us and be brave and was persecuted in various hush ways. Some even died for it.

 

[All Else Failed]

I believe that 99% of a situation is what we take from it. My dad (who I believe is an atheist) told me a story once.
<story time>
A man was invited onto a talk show to discuss the amazing luck he had experienced his whole life. You know it's bad when a talk show wants in on the action..... Well, the day before he goes on the show, he has a terrible fall down two flights of stairs. Breaks both of his legs, and one arm. When he is wheeled onto the stage the next day, unable to shake hands, or sit, or walk around as a normal person, the host has a bit of a chuckle about the irony of the moment. The injured man is totally un-deterred, he smiles, and waves to the crowd with his good arm. When the audience finally goes quiet, and the host opens the questions about incredible luck, the man practically comes out of his skin with excitement. "I know!!!" the man exclaimed. "What are the odds I would come through that accident without breaking my neck?!?!"
</story time>

Long story, short moral: Life is what we make of it. Religious people try to make the best of things, and are generally rewarded with the consequences of those decisions. If a person falls down, and refuses to get back up because there is no hope for tomorrow, how is their story gong to be different than that of the person who has great faith that there is a plan for his or her life, and tomorrow is going to be better?

I see nothing wrong with that. Religious beliefs aside, this is a great way to move through life. (IMO obviously)



Rep for great wisdom. Couldn't have said it better myself if I'd been given a thousand years to think about it.

All of mans failings aside, would you agree that this is at least one goal of Christianity?

Hey, we actually agree on something.

 

[All Else Failed]

Why can't you count the good things in the old and new testament that God has done for people? Plus, there had always been a reason why God did what he did. God is unfailing and faithful and that's why he's reliable. If you didn't know how christian's opportunities of bettering the world being denied then you must do some more research. We can sit comfortable in a church, read a bible whenever we like and talk freely about Christianity because so many heroes have gone before us and be brave and was persecuted in various hush ways. Some even died for it.

I don't care what humans did in the OT, nothing justifies mass murder just because you disagree with them.

Plus, Christianity has persecuted, hell religion as a whole has persecuted more people than any other organization in history.

 

[memento_mori]

Why can't you count the good things in the old and new testament that God has done for people? Plus, there had always been a reason why God did what he did. God is unfailing and faithful and that's why he's reliable. If you didn't know how christian's opportunities of bettering the world being denied then you must do some more research. We can sit comfortable in a church, read a bible whenever we like and talk freely about Christianity because so many heroes have gone before us and be brave and was persecuted in various hush ways. Some even died for it.

good things god has done in teh bible: made women, spoke out against murder, sent jesus, saved an adultress from being stoned, cured a blind man, brought lazarus back from teh dead.

bad things god has done: killed people in a flood, almost had abe kill his boy isaac, killed people in a fire for having too much sex, killed children with bears, and randomly cursed a fig tree.

why can't you count the good things ted bundy has done for us? he did well in school, was vice president for a church function, did boy scouts, volounteered late at nights for a suicide hot line, got a degree in psychology, and worked for the republican party.

plus, there had always been a reason for why ted did what he did. i don't understand why people are so down on him just because he raped and murdered a few people.

counting the good things does not discredit the bad things.

you can read a bible freely because we enforce freedom of religion, and america was founded by purist christians. plenty of people have died for christianity, but martyrdom does not equal justification. terrorists die and are tortured for their beliefs, does that make them right? saddam hussein was prosectuted and executed, does that make him right? the US persecuted communists, does that make communists right?

i googled stuff about christians being persecuted currently, and i found this:

http://www.forum18.org/PDF/johan_candelin.pdf

and when i read that, i just see some christian writer defending christianity against persecution in 3rd world countries, the kind of persecution that to me happens because of religous extremism in the first place.

believing in god, praying to god, and reading the bible will not make you right by themselves. nor will praying make what you want come to reality.

 

[Magic P]

good things god has done in teh bible: made women, spoke out against murder, sent jesus, saved an adultress from being stoned, cured a blind man, brought lazarus back from teh dead.

bad things god has done: killed people in a flood, almost had abe kill his boy isaac, killed people in a fire for having too much sex, killed children with bears, and randomly cursed a fig tree.

why can't you count the good things ted bundy has done for us? he did well in school, was vice president for a church function, did boy scouts, volounteered late at nights for a suicide hot line, got a degree in psychology, and worked for the republican party.

plus, there had always been a reason for why ted did what he did. i don't understand why people are so down on him just because he raped and murdered a few people.

counting the good things does not discredit the bad things.

you can read a bible freely because we enforce freedom of religion, and america was founded by purist christians. plenty of people have died for christianity, but martyrdom does not equal justification. terrorists die and are tortured for their beliefs, does that make them right? saddam hussein was prosectuted and executed, does that make him right? the US persecuted communists, does that make communists right?

i googled stuff about christians being persecuted currently, and i found this:

http://www.forum18.org/PDF/johan_candelin.pdf

and when i read that, i just see some christian writer defending christianity against persecution in 3rd world countries, the kind of persecution that to me happens because of religous extremism in the first place.

believing in god, praying to god, and reading the bible will not make you right by themselves. nor will praying make what you want come to reality.

It's all about perspectives and perception. You can look at a single event and discuss one aspect of it or look at a group of events over time and discuss different aspects of it. No matter how you look at it, things can't be justified by today's logic. The example you gave about Ted, I can twist it and say either Ted is a good person or Ted is a complete asshole. I can also say he's done good things but the bad things he's done are more significant or the other way round. Because there is not absolutes in the world, whatever we say or do can't be all right or all wrong.

The other thing is people keep saying religion religion. Well, being a Christian is not all about being religious or practicing religious rituals. It's about having a state of mind, a set of value and morals, hopes, desires to be righteous etc. How many people are actually extremists? I don't think pointing at one bad apple in the market is sufficient to judge the quality of the food in the market.

What has Jesus or God done are not all listed in the bible. It quotes examples when it's needed to make a point. Thus, it's not fair to compare all the disasters with the good things Jesus has done and say well, the good things he's done was so little and the bad things were just huge. There is a lot more to it.

And all the other examples you referred about people were being persecuted for the "right reasons" were just bias. Your points of views have been influenced by the society you've lived in, news you've read, people you've talked to etc. If you go to the place the "extremists" are from and ask the people there, they might not agree.

Bottom line is: God is the all knowing and we only knows the bits and pieces. We are not qualified to judge anything. The best we can do is to be humble and patient, God will reveal everything to us in his own timing. I am not saying we shouldn't explore the world. By all means. The bible says, seek, and it will be given to you. However, at the mean time, don't make up your mind yet till you know you made the right decision.

 

[Magic P]

I found this: Pope stokes debate on Darwin and evolution-Comment-Faith-TimesOnline

 

[All Else Failed]

I don't see how what he has said is so important....it's the same thing over and over.

 

[IntruderLS1]

i don't question that Christianity tries to make the world better. i used to have a quote in my sig:

"there's no such thing as evil, only the failure to do good."

it's not that i think religion is wrong, i just don't think it's right. if that makes sense. praying is helpful to ease your mind in the situation, but it's not as good as searching through all your options and keep trying everything you can.

Wow, after all this, we come to common ground. I respect your position. I realize it's the same position you've held since the beginning, but <chick voice> "It was the way you said it before." </chick voice> LOL J/K ladies.

we're just getting out of a old testament vs new testament debate in the atheists thread. how about the story of the ark, the destruction of sodom, and the story of the two bears that slaughtered the 42 youths? those are claimed to be god's bidding.

I know the ark thing is bugging you. It's hard to look at point blank, and I know this is going to bring up more strong debate, but have a fair point.

Mankind at the time was done for. The Bible tells us that Noah and his family were the only believer left on the planet. In the old testament, people didn't go to the fire and brimstone Hell that we think of today, so the killing was only the physical bodies (again, I know you cannot accept this, but it is out POV).

If all of mankind had fallen away, and the history of the beginning was lost, that would have been the entire race of humanity doomed to oblivion. By taking out those tens, or possibly hundreds of thousands of people then, He was in fact, giving the billions to follow a fighting chance.

Tough call either way, but if you look at it on paper, the flood was the greater good. The only piece of recent history that comes close is the use of the Atom Bomb in '45. Disintegrate 150,000 men, women, and children in two massive shock waves, or lose an estimated million plus in an invasion attempt?

Make me glad I don't have to make that decision. But if I were there, and HAD to choose, I would take the one that looked best on paper.

 

[Kat]

also remeber after that Noah and the ark God said he would never again destroy the world. just wanted to note that

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm not going to argue, I'm just going to say this about the flood: Killing every living thing on the planet besides a few people, can never be forgiven or be attributed to an all loving god.