Prayer. Why is God selective?

[Kat]

it wasnt...actually aef in the bible he is first vengeful no other gods before him and he would do that (like the flood) but after that...and after some other specific parts i believe (cnt excatally remember) he became the loving forgiving god

 

[Kat]

ill go research it and get back to you on it

 

[dt3]

Mankind at the time was done for. The Bible tells us that Noah and his family were the only believer left on the planet. In the old testament, people didn't go to the fire and brimstone Hell that we think of today, so the killing was only the physical bodies (again, I know you cannot accept this, but it is out POV).

So why couldn't god accept that mankind had grown away from him? Kids do it everyday to their parents. Doesn't mean the parents should kill the kids.

Why wasn't god satisfied with having one family of believers? Does he expect Christianity to dominate the globe? If so, I guess we're all about to be screwed...

Basically, what I'm trying to say is he gave us free will. Then, when man exercised that free will to do things he didn't like, he killed them all. WTF?

 

[All Else Failed]

So why couldn't god accept that mankind had grown away from him? Kids do it everyday to their parents. Doesn't mean the parents should kill the kids.

Why wasn't god satisfied with having one family of believers? Does he expect Christianity to dominate the globe? If so, I guess we're all about to be screwed...

Basically, what I'm trying to say is he gave us free will. Then, when man exercised that free will to do things he didn't like, he killed them all. WTF?

Well, thats what you get for not obeying!

 

[memento_mori]

It's all about perspectives and perception. You can look at a single event and discuss one aspect of it or look at a group of events over time and discuss different aspects of it. No matter how you look at it, things can't be justified by today's logic.

the church seems to pride itself on being a constant, unwavering, unchanging guide for morals and logic. today's logic is supposedly yesterday's logic, or at least should be able to explain yesterday's logic.

The example you gave about Ted, I can twist it and say either Ted is a good person or Ted is a complete asshole. I can also say he's done good things but the bad things he's done are more significant or the other way round. Because there is not absolutes in the world, whatever we say or do can't be all right or all wrong.

:confused so you're a relativist? will you accept that we can get arbitrarily close to right or wrong that we can label something right or wrong? and instead of declaring everything that is ted bundy wrong, can we just take a few of his actions with reasonable context and decide if that action is right or wrong? like, the rape and murder part. i'd like to see you try to make those sound like good things :tongue:

The other thing is people keep saying religion religion. Well, being a Christian is not all about being religious or practicing religious rituals. It's about having a state of mind, a set of value and morals, hopes, desires to be righteous etc. How many people are actually extremists? I don't think pointing at one bad apple in the market is sufficient to judge the quality of the food in the market.

however you define christianity, extremism, or god is up to you. just dont be surprised when people don't agree with you when you say being a christian is all about washing feet. when i'm talking about christians, i'm talking about people who subscribe to christianity as a religion. their state of mind, set of values and morals, hopes, desires to be righteous etc are all part of who they are as people, no matter how influenced they are by their religion.

i don't know, how many people are extremists? we'll have to make a survey :jk

i guess if i was pointing at one bad apple in my other post, it would have been god in the bible. and i dont think god is something you can overlook in this kind of discussion. my point was that having faith in god's plan and praying to have god make things better, does not always work. the bible speaks of some pretty fucked up things in the name of god's plan.

What has Jesus or God done are not all listed in the bible. It quotes examples when it's needed to make a point. Thus, it's not fair to compare all the disasters with the good things Jesus has done and say well, the good things he's done was so little and the bad things were just huge. There is a lot more to it.

god has supposedly done good things. ted bundy has done good things. ted bundy has done bad things. the bible says god has also done bad things. i'm just focusing on the bad things, because the fact that there are bad things disproves that god is always doing good things. i think it's fair to focus on the bad things when they don't have relation to the good things.

And all the other examples you referred about people were being persecuted for the "right reasons" were just bias. Your points of views have been influenced by the society you've lived in, news you've read, people you've talked to etc. If you go to the place the "extremists" are from and ask the people there, they might not agree.

um... i don't believe persecution is for right reasons, i don't remember saying that. i was saying that just because there's persecution, doesn't mean you're right. but i don't know, maybe being persecuted against does mean you're right. maybe i should go find the "extremists" and ask the people there.

Bottom line is: God is the all knowing and we only knows the bits and pieces. We are not qualified to judge anything. The best we can do is to be humble and patient, God will reveal everything to us in his own timing. I am not saying we shouldn't explore the world. By all means. The bible says, seek, and it will be given to you. However, at the mean time, don't make up your mind yet till you know you made the right decision.

even if god is the all knowing, it doesn't mean praying will make things better. in my opinion, we are qualified to judge anything. we have to take our own interpretations of the world around us because we have to make decisions to take actions. you can't always wait for the "more qualified" to judge things for you.

 

[IntruderLS1]

So why couldn't god accept that mankind had grown away from him? Kids do it everyday to their parents. Doesn't mean the parents should kill the kids.

Why wasn't god satisfied with having one family of believers? Does he expect Christianity to dominate the globe? If so, I guess we're all about to be screwed...

Basically, what I'm trying to say is he gave us free will. Then, when man exercised that free will to do things he didn't like, he killed them all. WTF?

No, I agree with you it does not mean that parents should kill their children. At the same time though, by leaving those people up to their own devices, they were going to damn the entire human race. History is a fragile thing. Two or three generations removed from an event, if it isn't taught, it may as well have never happened. I view the flood as an action of goodness towards the rest of us.

Our souls are eternal. It could be argued that God would be unmerciful if he were to let the entirety of man be destined for hell because He didn't intervene. Kind of like America. Sucks if you do, sucks if you don't. You've just got to do what you think is best.

... I'm trying to think of a better way to say it, but that's what I've got for now. Sorry.

 

[All Else Failed]

No, I agree with you it does not mean that parents should kill their children. At the same time though, by leaving those people up to their own devices, they were going to damn the entire human race. History is a fragile thing. Two or three generations removed from an event, if it isn't taught, it may as well have never happened. I view the flood as an action of goodness towards the rest of us.

Our souls are eternal. It could be argued that God would be unmerciful if he were to let the entirety of man be destined for hell because He didn't intervene. Kind of like America. Sucks if you do, sucks if you don't. You've just got to do what you think is best.

... I'm trying to think of a better way to say it, but that's what I've got for now. Sorry.

Society is pretty damn terrible right now, why does he not do anything about it now? It does seem most of society is doomed to hell as it is now, if you believe in that sort of thing.

 

[icecuban]

Society is pretty damn terrible right now, why does he not do anything about it now? It does seem most of society is doomed to hell as it is now, if you believe in that sort of thing.

when u ask a question about god, expect god answers. some conditioned, some genuine. i can see how it is mundane to keep hearing, its part of a plan, its part of a plan...and maybe it is, i like to see those who think that, and when their child dies, still holds to it, and questions nothing. to them, they are not hypocrates. just like, why is society like it is now, why couldnt god just make things good......but i think it might be like saying, why wasnt the earth just made without a big bang, and shit flying around and around for a while.....time and turmoil for a reason. but this is from a faith point of view, which the posts question asks for....missed posting these last few days, love u guys

 

[Magic P]

prayers have common sense in it. It makes you reflect on yourself. To make a petition you actually need to know what you want. Most of the people who think they have a problem don't actually define their problems well. When they pray, they get to think about what actually happened and that solves half of the problem. we got side track on what prayer actually is and the whole religion thing and overlook the benefits it actually gives us.

 

[Magic P]

I just wanna say that I am gonna do what works for me. If prayer gives me a sense of peace why argue with it and stop it and go back to the old confusion over again. Same with all the things that we argued about in this forum. If people actually stop their religious rituals, they might find their lives hard. Same as the anti-depressants, if it works, and gets you through some hard times, why not try it?

 

[dt3]

No, I agree with you it does not mean that parents should kill their children. At the same time though, by leaving those people up to their own devices, they were going to damn the entire human race. History is a fragile thing. Two or three generations removed from an event, if it isn't taught, it may as well have never happened. I view the flood as an action of goodness towards the rest of us.

Our souls are eternal. It could be argued that God would be unmerciful if he were to let the entirety of man be destined for hell because He didn't intervene. Kind of like America. Sucks if you do, sucks if you don't. You've just got to do what you think is best.

... I'm trying to think of a better way to say it, but that's what I've got for now. Sorry.

If god was omniscient he would've known man would fall away from him if given free will. So why did he give us free will only to punish us for it?

 

[All Else Failed]

If god was omniscient he would've known man would fall away from him if given free will. So why did he give us free will only to punish us for it?

Good point. In fact...why does he punish anyone at all since he set us up for sin in the first place?

 

[Magic P]

God's way of doing things is very complex. On one hand he's all knowing, on the other hand, he lets history and human race do it's own things for the sake of free will. However, he also got a way to fix things up when they go down. He gives us free will to choose but there are consequences on what we do. Imagine if there is no consequences on whatever we do, then the world would not make sense. Everyone would just do as they like and they human race would have been gone by now. God doesn't set up sins, in face he doesn't like sins. Thats why he told us at the first place what to do and what not to. If we chose to rebel, well, then you know what's gonna happen.

 

[memento_mori]

feeling a bit pissed. so if i sound offensive in this post, i probably am.

prayers have common sense in it. It makes you reflect on yourself. To make a petition you actually need to know what you want. Most of the people who think they have a problem don't actually define their problems well. When they pray, they get to think about what actually happened and that solves half of the problem. we got side track on what prayer actually is and the whole religion thing and overlook the benefits it actually gives us.

i'm sorry to see you shy away from my responses.

prayer doesn't make you reflect on yourself, reflecting on yourself makes you reflect on yourself. praying and reflecting on yourself are two separate, independent things that can and do exist with out each other.

we have not gotten off track, there is a point to our questions and criticisms. this thread is about the benefits and effectiveness of prayer, and why it seems to help some but not others. you say it's because some people aren't praying correctly, we're saying prayer doesn't have any effect on physical events.

Arrrrrgggg I can so see the difference between Christians and non-christians. Esp the real christians who have faith and give their lives to God. They are strong. They don't tear down people and they don't care what they think cuz they have been through it all to know that God is there and this is the truth.

i think what you said was blatantly offensive. not that you don't have a right to be blatantly offensive, i just think shying away from responses, refusing to accept that your statement was offensive, and not giving reasonable explanation behind it takes away from your credebility.

I am not judging anyone here and plz don't take what I say personally. Jesus wants the best of us and real Christians do forgive people because many have been prosecuted before them. We are glad cuz the great is the reward in heaven. I am not saying i forgive people for the reward in heaven I m just saying Jesus knows what we do, even in the dark. It's ok if you don't believe in it or anything. I don't mind discussing something constructive or answering your questions relating to Christianity but I have a feeling that at the end, people forget the logic and truth and will just turn into pure stubbornness.

i definitely agree people can be stubborn at times. maybe even stupid. anyway, here's to more stubborn stupidity.

Originally Posted by Magic P
It's (god's violent acts in the bible) all about perspectives and perception. You can look at a single event and discuss one aspect of it or look at a group of events over time and discuss different aspects of it. No matter how you look at it, things can't be justified by today's logic.

then what logic can you justify things like the flood, the mauling of children, and seemingly illogical maliciousness attributed to god in the bible? if it's not today's logic, or yesterday's logic, then it is illogical. you have to have some logic for it to be a plan. intruder says the mass murder of people in the flood is justified because their souls and our souls were saved, and that it would have been much worse had all those people survived. that is extremely difficult to swallow, and i can see intruder's hesitation in accepting that.

i don't think you can honestly believe that logic though for all the violence specifically in the old testament. which is another debate, but the criticism still stands that "god's plan" has some fucked up stuff in it, praying isn't going to change god's plan, and god's plan is going to have more fucked up stuff that you're not going to agree with.
this leads to two conclusions:

1.) god's plan is too smart for us to understand the fucked up things that happen, we just have to pray and hope god knows best.

God's way of doing things is very complex. On one hand he's all knowing, on the other hand, he lets history and human race do it's own things for the sake of free will. However, he also got a way to fix things up when they go down. He gives us free will to choose but there are consequences on what we do.

2.) there is no plan, shit happens to you whether you pray or not, and the best way for you to change your situation to the way you want it is to change it yourself. keyword: you.

Originally Posted by Magic P
The example you gave about Ted (Bundy), I can twist it and say either Ted (Bundy) is a good person or Ted (Bundy) is a complete asshole. I can also say he's done good things but the bad things he's done are more significant or the other way round. Because there is not absolutes in the world, whatever we say or do can't be all right or all wrong.

rape and murder are wrong. killing a bunch of people because they were gambling too much, having sex too much, not worshiping god enough, and general sinning is wrong. again: killing a bunch of people for nothing is wrong. i don't care how many bunnies and giraffes god saved in the flood, i don't care that god made the no killing rule so maybe he has the right to break it, there is nothing you can say that changes the black and white that says god killed countless people through a flood and other illogical malice.

in the example of ted bundy, you can argue that his raping and killing was all part of a greater good, but it isn't going to change the fact that his raping and killing was wrong. you can argue that god's bad actions were part of a greater good, but they are still wrong. which contradicts the idea that god and his plan are always right.

what, are you going to say his wrong actions were the right choices because not killing a bunch of men, women, and children would have resulted in a worse world for us? how do you know? is it that whatever happens is god's choice and since god's choice is always right whatever just happened must be a blessing from god?

my cat just died because it was sick. must be god's plan. good thing god blessed me with the death of my cat, it might have raped a baby or something. hmm, i'm feeling a bit sad now that my potentially baby-raping cat is dead, i better pray to make sure i stick with god's plan. *pray* oh noes! now my house just burned down from a forest fire. it's still for the best, though. gotta keep up with god's plan. hey, now no one is rebuilding my house for me. wtf? don't people realise their choice of free will to help me is part of god's plan? blah! now ted bundy is raping me. must be the free will, because god's plan wouldn't be this cruel.

 

[memento_mori]

Originally Posted by Magic P
The other thing is people keep saying religion religion. Well, being a Christian is not all about being religious or practicing religious rituals. It's about having a state of mind, a set of value and morals, hopes, desires to be righteous etc

as per your request, we're talking about praying.

praying: An act of the virtue of religion which consists in asking proper gifts or graces from God. In a more general sense it is the application of the mind to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge of them but to make use of such knowledge as a means of union with God. This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Prayer

thus, why people talk about religion religion.

Originally Posted by Magic P
What has Jesus or God done are not all listed in the bible. It quotes examples when it's needed to make a point. Thus, it's not fair to compare all the disasters with the good things Jesus has done and say well, the good things he's done was so little and the bad things were just huge. There is a lot more to it.

the bible describes examples that have god doing things we find very disagreeable. what is the point of these examples? especially if god's plan is so complex that we can't understand it. is the point of the stories where god kills people that god is better than us and doesn't have to follow our rules? like, the rule that says thou shall not kill?

do you really want to pray to a god that follows a plan that involves killing millions? do you really think this plan is better than something we can come up with?

I just wanna say that I am gonna do what works for me. If prayer gives me a sense of peace why argue with it and stop it and go back to the old confusion over again. Same with all the things that we argued about in this forum. If people actually stop their religious rituals, they might find their lives hard. Same as the anti-depressants, if it works, and gets you through some hard times, why not try it?

do what works for you. this forum isn't making you change that.

but,"If prayer gives me a sense of peace why argue with it and stop it and go back to the old confusion over again. Same with all the things that we argued about in this forum. If people actually stop their religious rituals, they might find their lives hard. Same as the anti-depressants, if it works, and gets you through some hard times, why not try it?"?

we have been trying it, and there's reason to believe it is becoming a problem. just because praying makes you feel better, doesn't make it right. blind faith and dedication to an organisation and philosophy that promotes people not thinking about a disaster, denies the option of saving a young mother from ill raising a child she's not ready for, denies marriage rights to homosexuals, promotes faith in the power of an imaginary being over your own tangible thoughts and actions, that is just plain obsolete...

god and praying are cute and innocent until we get to an actual debate on an actual problem where it's a respected viewpoint to say "god did it, god said it, and we're gonna do it. if you don't believe it, you're not praying enough."

where is the evidence that praying is better than thinking and discussing? where is the evidence that by praying for things to go better, things will actially go better more than actually talking to PEOPLE and not GOD?

i mean, if it's a choice between giving your life up to god, praying, and endlessly trying to make things better for yourself and others until you die vs relying on yourself, the people around you, and endlessly trying to make things better for yourself and others until you die; at least by relying on yourself you can die knowing you tried your best and there wasnt any loss of communication when you thought god would help you out.

 

[Magic P]

I will come back to this when I got time. Exams are in a week time. Sorry buddy.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

YouTube - Garth Brooks - Unanswered Prayers

i don't think God doesn't listen. I think he knows more than we do, and there's definitely a reason people don't always get what they want. And if they did, we'd all win the lottery and live in mansions.

 

[dt3]

And god speaks to all of us through Garth



:jk

 

[All Else Failed]

Why....why why why did you link us to horrible music!

 

[dt3]

Why....why why why did you link us to horrible music!

Damn, I knew we didn't see eye to eye on most things, but...how could you be so wrong???