physical proof that god doesn't exsist.

[Minor Axis]

"shit happens" whether or not the entity exists or not.

what you (or another person) takes from it is up to them.

True- but even for logical religious people (oxymoron?) there is no way you could conclude that God has any kind of some semblance of a strict policy of rewarding the "good" while they are alive on the Earth.

 

[lonemeditater]

i love how people like to assume that bad things happening is the work of "God, if He exists" but never mention that if we consider that God might exist, we must also consider that Satan might exist >_>

 

[Peter Parka]

I wouldn't say this proves that god dosen't exist but that his non existance is one of three possible options I can think of, the other two being

2 - He is not perfect

3 - He is just a complete prick

 

[Minor Axis]

i love how people like to assume that bad things happening is the work of "God, if He exists" but never mention that if we consider that God might exist, we must also consider that Satan might exist >_>

Or that neither exist. Anyone who frames God as "if he exists" is in the questioning, hopefully open-minded mode. Blaming "bad things" on God sometimes comes up when religious people get it in their heads that God is supposed to protect the believers physically while living their lives on Earth. That concept is clearly disproven daily and results in some level of disappointment. I prefer to think that "God, if he exists" does not micro manage our lives.

My view is that both God and Satin have been defined, if not created by organized religion. They are not exclusive or inclusive of one another. You can consider God, Satan, both or neither. One could exist without the other. I do see the logic that if the Church got it right about God, they could also be right about Satan. But that is a mighty big IF.

I assume you believe so how would you define Satan?

 

[Peter Parka]

The whole Satan thing is confusing. We're supposed to accept that he is the hight of evilness but surely if he is running hell and using it to punish bad people, that would make him working for god?

 

[Minor Axis]

The whole Satan thing is confusing. We're supposed to accept that he is the hight of evilness but surely if he is running hell and using it to punish bad people, that would make him working for god?

Great point! Consider that God is supposed to be all knowing, all seeing, and ALL POWERFUl. Why would he allow Satan to run around causing all this trouble? Three possibilities, Satan works for God and is used by God to test us (Pete's idea), Satan is just as powerful as God so God can't control him (God is not all powerful), Satan does not exist.

 

[Nielisfranco]

Satan used to be God's number one angel. He was cast out of heaven and down to earth along with 1/3 of the angels. The main reason stated in the bible is because he is jealous of the relationship between man and God. So for that God decided to create hell and to send Satan there at the end times. No one can say why God did this.

One thought that I think a lot of people have when it comes to God, is he or isn't he, is that we always, as humans try to humanize God. God thinks on a much larger scale then any human can. Eternity is long time and if God is at the beginning and the end then he is a big God. I don't think I can imagine knowing what I will be doing tomorrow, let alone at the end of my life. Where as God knows every possible outcome, of every persons lives. Not just the ones that you choose, but the ones you didn't choose. Think about it, even the basic of things, like looking out the window has a million different outcomes. You see a bird, maybe you follow its path with your eyes, maybe not. You walk somewhere, maybe you talk to a person maybe not, maybe you turn right, or not.

In my opinion, its this humanization that causes us to miss the point entirely. And I don't want to hear the "if god can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that even he can't lift i?!'. Because 1) it is exactly what my point suggests 2) the answer is yes, but a human mind can't understand something that is a paradox. Sorry if I sound bitchy, didn't eat my Wheaties this morning.

 

[Peter Parka]

That's all very well but it dosen't explain why a god that great allows good people to suffer when he could quite clearly stop it.
Saying that no one knows why god did this is just a cop out way of admitting it makes no sense.

 

[Codrus]

Satan used to be God's number one angel. He was cast out of heaven and down to earth along with 1/3 of the angels. The main reason stated in the bible is because he is jealous of the relationship between man and God. So for that God decided to create hell and to send Satan there at the end times. No one can say why God did this.
In stating this you have admitted to gods imperfection which means he cannot be "The oneTrue God" or even "A God". According to the bible god created everything including the angels, god did not give the angles free will or emotion, they were supposedly created a s servants of god to follow his instruction without question or malice etc.

One thought that I think a lot of people have when it comes to God, is he or isn't he, is that we always, as humans try to humanize God. God thinks on a much larger scale then any human can. Eternity is long time and if God is at the beginning and the end then he is a big God. I don't think I can imagine knowing what I will be doing tomorrow, let alone at the end of my life. Where as God knows every possible outcome, of every persons lives. Not just the ones that you choose, but the ones you didn't choose. Think about it, even the basic of things, like looking out the window has a million different outcomes. You see a bird, maybe you follow its path with your eyes, maybe not. You walk somewhere, maybe you talk to a person maybe not, maybe you turn right, or not.

Knowing every possible variable of every possibility/outcome would be "nice", but having a grasp of the possibilities and just sitting back and watching to see what happends means you dont really know and that makes it an experiment

In my opinion, its this humanization that causes us to miss the point entirely. And I don't want to hear the "if god can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that even he can't lift i?!'. Because 1) it is exactly what my point suggests 2) the answer is yes, but a human mind can't understand something that is a paradox. Sorry if I sound bitchy, didn't eat my Wheaties this morning.

"Humanization" as it were is the only reason we have religion/god at all, becuase a group of individuals sat down and thought "hey, how do we control a large number of people and generate revenue ?"......you get them to believe the same thing or think the same way, a.k.a sheep or cattle, and yes the human mind cannot understand or figure out everything that there is... so religion/god is used as a crutch or security blanket to keep people from being afraid of the "unkown" or what they cannot understand/perceive ....which hasnt really worked that well.

basically you have faith in something greater than yourself becuase it answers question that either you cant or dont want to know so you are not consumed by them.

personally i have faith in me, are there things in the universe greater than myself..i certainly hope so otherwise we are all fucked!!! do i think thats its all due to one invisible being who has the ability to control everything but choose's to just watch sit back and watch...no , that just sounds like a couch potato


and i dont think you sound "bitchy" , you have your opinion and i have mine...and in this instance i choose to throw words and logic instead of tomato's

 

[MoonOwl]

God = CouchPotato:24::24::24::24::24:

 

[Tomperi]

God didn't create man, man created God.

 

[MoonOwl]

Gotta love powerful Men who think they can control the world by making Sheep out of all of us...........


:kneelsuckers::kneelsuckers:

 

[Codrus]

Gotta love powerful Men who think they can control the world by making Sheep out of all of us...........


:kneelsuckers::kneelsuckers:

bahhh....bahhh (or whatever sheep do))

 

[Minor Axis]

Satan used to be God's number one angel. He was cast out of heaven and down to earth along with 1/3 of the angels. The main reason stated in the bible is because he is jealous of the relationship between man and God. So for that God decided to create hell and to send Satan there at the end times. No one can say why God did this.

This may sound crouchy, (but I'm not ) but no one can say why, because the whole story is pure conjecture and it's really tough tieing together all the loose ends of what likely is a tall wishful tale.

One thought that I think a lot of people have when it comes to God, is he or isn't he, is that we always, as humans try to humanize God. God thinks on a much larger scale then any human can.

How do we know this? A book you read and possibly childhood or religious indoctrination.

Eternity is long time and if God is at the beginning and the end then he is a big God. I don't think I can imagine knowing what I will be doing tomorrow, let alone at the end of my life. Where as God knows every possible outcome, of every persons lives. Not just the ones that you choose, but the ones you didn't choose. Think about it, even the basic of things, like looking out the window has a million different outcomes. You see a bird, maybe you follow its path with your eyes, maybe not. You walk somewhere, maybe you talk to a person maybe not, maybe you turn right, or not.

More wishful conjecture, but no hard feelings. I've got a alternate reality for you with just as much plausibility and just as much proof as you have. There is, for lack of a better term, a spiritual dimension, that may exist in a plane that may be connected to our physical world or overlaps with ours. An existence without a supreme leader, who lives forever, and controls everything including us, whose image we are not made in, as he/she/it would be a spiritual being, while we are shaped specifically as a result of the environment we exist in, who does not consider us his children, who individually may not even be aware of us, but in some unknown fashion we are part of that existance, part of a force, we will return to it, and may or may not become fully aware of it's true nature upon the time of our passing. The mysteries may continue for the foreseeable future!

PS- Of course Yahweh may be sitting up there with a big paddle ready to tan my spiritual hide when my time is up. But you know what I'd ask? Why all the mysteries? Why all the absenteeism? Why all the lack of guidance? (Btw, a book composed of scripts written by hundreds of people, translated numerous times by an organization with an agenda may have some good principles to live by, but does not really qualify as guidance or truth imo.) And at least in human terms, that's not a good Father-son relationship.

 

[Minor Axis]

Gotta love powerful Men who think they can control the world by making Sheep out of all of us...........

Yep, it's organized religion sitting on that throne, you know, the ones with all the answers asking for money.

 

[Nielisfranco]

Interesting. I appreciate your points of view and your input.

My point however, was simply this. That if there were a God, who created all the universe and who lives forever all at one time, thinks on a much higher level of thought than we do.

The best analogy for my point is the difference between the thought and perception of a child compared to an adult. The same applies from a human to a God.

As per sheep, they don't blindly follow. In fact sheep learn the sound of the shepherds voice and follow only him. If some stranger ran to a field with sheep and said, Hey follow me, they would run the other way. Whereas sheep follow the shepherd they know. That is why Christ used that analogy for his church. He is the shepherd and we are the sheep, learn his voice and follow him. That is how God chooses to lead us, not by saying, follow me or die in hell. But saying, here is the way that I think you should follow and if you don't that is your own fault, but I am always here to help you. The fear of hell and burning for eternity is fear mongering by those in power that seek to control. God isn't like that. In my opinion anyway.

The best way to describe following God is not that he is in control of your life, but he has a plan for you and this plan is greater than anything we could think of for ourselves. Just imagine your parents or if you are a parent, imagine what you want for your kids. Aren't you going to try and lead them down that path. Or weren't your parents trying to get you in the best school or make sure you had food. That is the relationship between us and God. Its not about control at all, its all about being in relationship with the creator of the universe. The only reason someone has any input into your life is through relationship. Like if I told you buy some stock you might not take it, because you don't really know me. But if your best friend or family member told you, you might be more inclined. God does this in a persons life through the Bible, Prayer and other followers of God who hear him. Now its getting weird eh?

Just for some clarification, in case you might be wondering. I have only been a believer for a short while. I have seen things that are just unexplainable by science, since becoming a believer. Its nice and dandy for me to say that, and to you it could be that I am just a lier trying to convert you. But I am not, I am just saying, I came about my faith through trial and error and personal experience of God. And in truth, I don't think God can be proved in a manner such as this, but only through personal research and careful examination. Or you could just ask Google and see what it says, Google knows everything!

 

[Tomperi]

In my opinion anyway.

Thats the key sentence here. Most Christians I've met have told me, if I don't repent and let God into my heart, I will burn in hell for all eternity. The bible is really all about picking and choosing. I suppose you don't believe in tossing stones on people if they work on the sabbath, and "thou shall not kill" is the way to go.

And as for praying, it clearly doesn't work. An example would be the eastern front of WWII. The Wehrmacht was almost entirely comprised of devout Christians, who certainly were praying for God to protect the fatherland. And yet, the Red Army, comprised mostly out of Atheists, beat back the Germans and invaded Berlin. Were was God then?

 

[Peter Parka]

Interesting. I appreciate your points of view and your input.

My point however, was simply this. That if there were a God, who created all the universe and who lives forever all at one time, thinks on a much higher level of thought than we do.

The best analogy for my point is the difference between the thought and perception of a child compared to an adult. The same applies from a human to a God.

As per sheep, they don't blindly follow. In fact sheep learn the sound of the shepherds voice and follow only him. If some stranger ran to a field with sheep and said, Hey follow me, they would run the other way. Whereas sheep follow the shepherd they know. That is why Christ used that analogy for his church. He is the shepherd and we are the sheep, learn his voice and follow him. That is how God chooses to lead us, not by saying, follow me or die in hell. But saying, here is the way that I think you should follow and if you don't that is your own fault, but I am always here to help you. The fear of hell and burning for eternity is fear mongering by those in power that seek to control. God isn't like that. In my opinion anyway.

The best way to describe following God is not that he is in control of your life, but he has a plan for you and this plan is greater than anything we could think of for ourselves. Just imagine your parents or if you are a parent, imagine what you want for your kids. Aren't you going to try and lead them down that path. Or weren't your parents trying to get you in the best school or make sure you had food. That is the relationship between us and God. Its not about control at all, its all about being in relationship with the creator of the universe. The only reason someone has any input into your life is through relationship. Like if I told you buy some stock you might not take it, because you don't really know me. But if your best friend or family member told you, you might be more inclined. God does this in a persons life through the Bible, Prayer and other followers of God who hear him. Now its getting weird eh?

Just for some clarification, in case you might be wondering. I have only been a believer for a short while. I have seen things that are just unexplainable by science, since becoming a believer. Its nice and dandy for me to say that, and to you it could be that I am just a lier trying to convert you. But I am not, I am just saying, I came about my faith through trial and error and personal experience of God. And in truth, I don't think God can be proved in a manner such as this, but only through personal research and careful examination. Or you could just ask Google and see what it says, Google knows everything!

Unlike sheep though, we have a level of understanding that can understand explanation. If god has a higher purpose for us and is so great he would be able to explain it clearly to us, not in contradictory and riddle filled books.
You use the example of a shepherd. A good shepherd can steer his flock in the one direction he wants them to go. Judging by gods sheep all heading in different directions and fighting among themselves, I would say he's doing a pretty dismal job of it if what you say is true.

 

[Minor Axis]

Interesting. I appreciate your points of view and your input.

My point however, was simply this. That if there were a God, who created all the universe and who lives forever all at one time, thinks on a much higher level of thought than we do.

I can't really argue that other than to say the key word is "if".

The best way to describe following God is not that he is in control of your life, but he has a plan for you and this plan is greater than anything we could think of for ourselves.

If you speak of this as your faith, I have no problem with that. If you start preaching it at a gathering of people, then I would question.

Just for some clarification, in case you might be wondering. I have only been a believer for a short while. I have seen things that are just unexplainable by science, since becoming a believer. Its nice and dandy for me to say that, and to you it could be that I am just a lier trying to convert you. But I am not, I am just saying, I came about my faith through trial and error and personal experience of God. And in truth, I don't think God can be proved in a manner such as this, but only through personal research and careful examination. Or you could just ask Google and see what it says, Google knows everything!

Some good points here. First I would not call you or anyone trying to describe what-is-spiritually-what as lairs. They may just be adding 1+1 and getting 3. Secondly, just because something is unprovable by science does not mean it's provable or true just because someone wants it to be true. And thirdly, with the lack of evidence, I would really find it alarming if the understanding, loving, great and powerful Oz, I mean God would hold it against anyone for questioning their place in the universe.

 

[Azazel]

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