Occupy this, occupy that...

[Stone]

Here is the list for your review

1. Elimination of the Corporate State.
2. Abrogation of the "Citizens United" Case.
3. Elimination of All Private Benefits and "Perks" to Politicians.
4. Term Limits.
5. A Fair Tax Code.
6. Healthcare for All.
7. Protection of the Planet.
8. Debt Reduction.
9. Jobs for All Americans.
10. Student Loan Forgiveness.
11. Immigration Reform and Improved Border Security.
12. Ending of Perpetual War for Profit.
13. Reforming Public Education.
14. End Outsourcing.
15. End Currency Manipulation.
16. Banking and Securities Reform.
17. Foreclosure Moratorium.
18. Ending the Fed.
19. Abolish the Electoral College, Comprehensive Campaign Finance and Election Reform.
20. Ending the War in Afghanistan.
21. Repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act ("DOMA").

And yet those concerns don't cover all, let alone the majority, of reasons why the US is in dire financial shape.
It's easy to point out the abuses on Wall Street, but where are the lists of abuses from union influence on the State legislatures, like the States drowning in red ink from public sector pension plans legislated by politicians looking to be reelected?
Or the massive entitlements during a depression/recession?
No one remembers the car give-away of Obama?

Not that I support the bailouts, I didn't, but the cost to the tax payers on TARP is insignificant compared to all the other programs/waste.
~$19 billion.....which is chump change in today's DC politics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARP
That's less than the Savings and Loan debacle back in the 80's

OWS is what Adbusters planned.....a chaotic/anarchist movement in support of socialism.

Reform is needed in many aspects of our society, but once a position is favored ( anti capitalism in this case ) and all else ignored, the situation obviously becomes political.....and it's only a year to the next Presidential election and it's timely to ramp up political support.

 

[Tim]

And yet those concerns don't cover all, let alone the majority, of reasons why the US is in dire financial shape.
It's easy to point out the abuses on Wall Street, but where are the lists of abuses from union influence on the State legislatures, like the States drowning in red ink from public sector pension plans legislated by politicians looking to be reelected?
Or the massive entitlements during a depression/recession?
No one remembers the car give-away of Obama?

Not that I support the bailouts, I didn't, but the cost to the tax payers on TARP is insignificant compared to all the other programs/waste.
~$19 billion.....which is chump change in today's DC politics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARP
That's less than the Savings and Loan debacle back in the 80's

OWS is what Adbusters planned.....a chaotic/anarchist movement in support of socialism.

Reform is needed in many aspects of our society, but once a position is favored ( anti capitalism in this case ) and all else ignored, the situation obviously becomes political.....and it's only a year to the next Presidential election and it's timely to ramp up political support.

So what are your proposed solutions? Eradicate unions? Eliminate all pensions?
And what are these massive entitlements that you are talking about?

 

[Stone]

So what are your proposed solutions? Eradicate unions? Eliminate all pensions?
And what are these massive entitlements that you are talking about?

Apply the same rationale of reform to union activity as corporations/wall street.

And what are these massive entitlements that you are talking about?

Please, present serious questions and challenges.
Imbecile comments are a waste of time to the forum.

But anyway
http://www.heritage.org/research/re...ments-principles-of-reform-and-the-next-steps



You like pie charts?
Start with the Federal budget as an example.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png

Rate of increased debt:
( sorry it's a graph )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USDebt.png

The Federal government is creating debt to the extent that it degrades the value of the dollar and that is also missing from much if not all of the OWS protest and creates additional tax burden.

OWS isn't about reform, it's about creating 'change' .....and there seems a heavy socialist attitude to even the 'moderates' in the streets.

 

[rback33]

God forbid you try and get and actual conversation going with Stone Tim... I mean... what the hell are you thinking asking him questions which will require him to think up actual ANSWERS....

So far I love Stone's philosophical aspect but I have yet to see him answer a single question thrown at him. If I did not know better I would think he has Tim on ignore.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I think the occupy idea was originally a good concept but has been bastardized by the life-long non-contributors of society. Most of the occupy things have just turned into continuous parties and not an active political movement.

Fred - not to engage you in combativeness - but that post above is propaganda being spread by those against OWS. The movement is even more focused than before and it will continue to grow.

Life long non-contributors? Really?

Continous parties? Please.

It is very much a non-partisan political movement and their goals are clear if people would only look for themselves instead of allowing the naysayers to do their thinking for them.

 

[Stone]

God forbid you try and get and actual conversation going with Stone Tim... I mean... what the hell are you thinking asking him questions which will require him to think up actual ANSWERS....

So far I love Stone's philosophical aspect but I have yet to see him answer a single question thrown at him. If I did not know better I would think he has Tim on ignore.

You just don't like my answers

 

[Stone]

....................................

It is very much a non-partisan political movement and their goals are clear if people would only look for themselves instead of allowing the naysayers to do their thinking for them.

If it's non-partisan, why is so much avoided in addressing reform?
Why is the crushing Federal Debt a non issue in the OWS ranks?
Why aren't the unions also taken to task for their influence in both State and Federal legislatures?
Why, because the OWS isn't 'bi-partisan'.
The OWS isn't about reform, it's about change.
And it's ironic they claim to speak for the masses ( 99% ) while avoiding many of the issues that plague them.

 

[teh_fuzz]

Here is the list for your review

3. Elimination of All Private Benefits and "Perks" to Politicians. (hmm.. interesting and i somewhat agree with it)
4. Term Limits. (Sure, why not...)
6. Healthcare for All. (... *le sigh* coming from a country where healthcare is free for all i can assure you it is not all it seems)
7. Protection of the Planet. ( lol lets be greeen yaaaaaaaay... alright i do agree on this one too)
8. Debt Reduction. (debt reduction? how about living within you means classes for all and the govt before we can demand something as ludicrous as debt reduction)
9. Jobs for All Americans. (LOL they have to get up off their asses and LOOK for one... and tough it up and take what they can get)
10. Student Loan Forgiveness. (and rainbows and unicorns for all recent graduates... )
21. Repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act ("DOMA") ( I agree)

my run down

 

[Johnfromokc]

Well, well, well...another naysayer straight from the conservobot talking points radio network.

If it's non-partisan, why is so much avoided in addressing reform?

WTF are you talking about? Have you ever looked into the movement, or is all your information from the anti-ows sites?

Rhetorical question - the answer is obvious.

Why is the crushing Federal Debt a non issue in the OWS ranks?

Yep, straight from the anti crowd.

Why aren't the unions also taken to task for their influence in both State and Federal legislatures?

Answer this question and maybe you'll figure it out:

How much income do all American unions gross annually compared to Wal-Mart's profits alone?

After you look that easily obtainable info up, then explain who has the most influence over government - the Fourtune 500 companies, or unions.

Why, because the OWS isn't 'bi-partisan'.

OWS is non-partisan. You would know that if you were intellectually honest and actually sought the answer somewhere other than the anti-ows web pages.

The OWS isn't about reform, it's about change.

WTF are you saying here. Reform? Change? This statement makes about as much sense as a football bat.

And it's ironic they claim to speak for the masses ( 99% ) while avoiding many of the issues that plague them.

So, wise one, why don't you jump in here and tell us about all those issues that plague them.

 

[Alien Allen]

Here ya go Tim.

Go ahead and rip me a new one.

Oh and I would have added if we are going to get into social debates like same sex marriages then we might as well also add legalizing prostitution and drugs.:thumbup



1. Elimination of the Corporate State.
Fine as long as Unions are acknowledged as being part of the corporate state

2. Abrogation of the "Citizens United" Case.
Same as above and unions can not lobby

3. Elimination of All Private Benefits and "Perks" to Politicians.
some of this is fine. some is not

4. Term Limits.
No way. Term limits do not work. People need to get more involved and vote

5. A Fair Tax Code.
The devil is in the details and what is fair is subjective. This looks more of the lets tax the rich and business. We already are being done.

6. Healthcare for All.
How you going to pay for this?

7. Protection of the Planet.
Cap and trade says it all and that is a horrible idea

8. Debt Reduction.
We need debt reduction but not as envisioned by OWS

9. Jobs for All Americans.
Rah, rah, rah... Reminds me of when my crew back 30 years ago demanded they be given a massive raise and guaranteed 40 hour weeks just like the Auto Unions. That did not fly and the UAW proved they can be just as greedy and unrealistic as any CEO

10. Student Loan Forgiveness.
Ah yes lets let people get more stuff for free. Why not forgive everybodys mortgage.

11. Immigration Reform and Improved Border Security.
This proposal is giving in to immigration and rewarding criminals. Sounds like a bad idea.

12. Ending of Perpetual War for Profit.
I am in favor of bringing back all the troops everywhere. Might be better put to use along the borders to provide us real security and at the same time we get out of everybody else business giving them no excuse to hate us. And if they do attack we kick em in the ass threefold.

13. Reforming Public Education.
I am all for reform. Some of this I could sign on with

14. End Outsourcing.
I agree with the incentives part of this but not an outsourcing tax

15. End Currency Manipulation.
agreed but good luck on that one

16. Banking and Securities Reform.
Agree

17. Foreclosure Moratorium.
I might agree with some relief on a case by case basis. Many should lose their homes and any temporary relief would be just putting off the inevitable. I also don't want banks being able to double dip which they have been that makes them more money to foreclose.

18. Ending the Fed.
I am not that well versed to say we should eliminate the Fed but I sure as hell believe there needs far greater oversight and accountability and transparency. How that is done without making the Fed another politically motivated entity will be the challenge.

19. Abolish the Electoral College, Comprehensive Campaign Finance and Election Reform.
Disagree completely about abolishing the electoral college. The reasons it was established still apply. We need reform and I have been a long time supporter of the concept of public financed elections. I would also add shortening the election period instead of this nonsense where people are stumping for a couple years in advance.


20. Ending the War in Afghanistan.
I never wanted to go there to begin with. There is a reason the USSR left with their tail between their legs back in the early 80's

21. Repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act ("DOMA").[/QUOTE]
It never should have been a law to begin with. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Never was it same sex. Common sense and religious nuts drove this into law. Same sex unions should be allowed when done in a legal manner if the same benefits as marriage are to be applied but same sex couples are not married.

 

[Kyle B]

These ones seemed to jump out at me:


10. Student Loan Forgiveness.

Sounds nice, but isn't very fair to the people who didn't go into thousands of dollars into debt to go to school. Do those people get a check?

13. Reforming Public Education.

This is a bit vague. I think a good start to reforming education would be to reform tenure and make it easier to get rid of crappy teachers.


19. Abolish the Electoral College, Comprehensive Campaign Finance and Election Reform.

I could care less if we got rid of the Electoral College, it's an outdated system that serves little purpose. Whichever candidate wins the popular vote should win the election, hands down.

 

[Stone]

Well, well, well...another naysayer straight from the conservobot talking points radio network.



WTF are you talking about? Have you ever looked into the movement, or is all your information from the anti-ows sites?

Rhetorical question - the answer is obvious.



Yep, straight from the anti crowd.




Answer this question and maybe you'll figure it out:

How much income do all American unions gross annually compared to Wal-Mart's profits alone?

After you look that easily obtainable info up, then explain who has the most influence over government - the Fourtune 500 companies, or unions.



OWS is non-partisan. You would know that if you were intellectually honest and actually sought the answer somewhere other than the anti-ows web pages.



WTF are you saying here. Reform? Change? This statement makes about as much sense as a football bat.



So, wise one, why don't you jump in here and tell us about all those issues that plague them.

Well, well, well...another naysayer straight from the conservobot talking points radio network.

You're merely confused and fall back on tired name calling.

WTF are you talking about? Have you ever looked into the movement, or is all your information from the anti-ows sites?

I see you also are afflicted with reading comprehension.

Rhetorical question - the answer is obvious.

And yet you have no response.

Answer this question and maybe you'll figure it out:

How about you answering with out a fallacious response? ( Begging the question is not an answer....it is a logical fallacy......you lefties seem to do that a lot )

How much income do all American unions gross annually compared to Wal-Mart's profits alone?

Irrelevant to my post.
One big issue with the public sector unions has been one of pension negotiations with legislatures that they lobby. The taxpayer is obligated by legislation and has little input, even though they are the primary source for the employment. All government employment is done in the name of the taxpayer.
The private sector unions are relatively burnt out from over pricing labor demands in the past and jobs have moved to global areas more receptive to cheap labor.
That's not my political position, that reality.

After you look that easily obtainable info up, then explain who has the most influence over government - the Fourtune 500 companies, or unions.

Non sequitur.
I'm not arguing for relief in the business sector, I'm pointing out your bogus left wing argument for supporting OWS

OWS is non-partisan.

In an interview, Lasn makes the argument for a third party.
I posted the link in another thread.
Here it is again toward the bottom of the page:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...behind-it-all/2011/10/12/gIQAC81xfL_blog.html

excerpt>

Q. Why do you think a third party is possible at this moment in history?
A. We [the left] haven’t really had our act together. The tea party has had all the fun. This is about the political left having some fun. The political left wants a fundamental change in our political system and economy, in the way we drink and eat and buy things and get around. This movement can bear a lot of fruits, and I think a third party is one of them.

That's not bi-partisanship.
Feeling ignorant yet?

WTF are you saying here. Reform? Change? This statement makes about as much sense as a football bat.

That's probably because you played with out a helmet

 

[All Else Failed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T52pwLjmvA&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[Codrus]

im going to go occupy my bed and protest the fact i have to work for a living...by snoring

 

[Stone]

Even organizers like Schultz admit OWS is about revolution and anarchy.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-f...ganizer-marketing-analyst-whose-linkedin-list

quote from the video ( sorry, couldn't hot link to it )
Definitely worth watching.

SHARPTON: Thank you. Tell us a little bit about the movement that's going on in Wall Street.

SCHULTZ: The movement down here is incredibly exciting. It's incredibly exhilirating. And I see my opinion as a professional sociologist, I think that this is the beginning of a revolution in this country . . . We're all for change. We all want something different. We all want something better. As far as the specifics, as far as how we go about doing that, we don't know yet. Part of the problem, part of the issue is that I think that a lot of the people that are here are in fact anarchists, are in fact revolutionaries. And putting a revolution, putting a revolutionary change into political terms is very difficult to do. Because we're trying to get away from all the problems. Again, we don't really want to fix them: it's revolution, not reform.

 

[CityGirl]

...Wonderful is the effect of impudent & persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen-yard in order. I hope in God this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted. -- You ask me if any thing transpires here on the subject of S. America? Not a word. I know that there are combustible materials there, and that they wait the torch only. But this country probably will join the extinguishers. -- The want of facts worth communicating to you has occasioned me to give a little loose to dissertation. We must be contented to amuse, when we cannot inform. http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl64.htm

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith Paris, Nov. 13, 1787

 

[All Else Failed]

Yeah he was clearly wrong and a stupid thing to say

 

[teh_fuzz]

aaaah the politics section in OTZ

let us bask in its uselessness and yet ponder at the wonder that freedom of speech and political views bring to a forum.... aaaaaaaaaaaah

:tooth

 

[Stone]

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith Paris, Nov. 13, 1787

And how do you relate his words to the anarchy presented by the OWS and their list of proposed entitlements?

 

[CityGirl]

And how do you relate his words to the anarchy presented by the OWS and their list of proposed entitlements?

To what list of entitlements are you referring?