Martin/Zimmerman-----Poll

[The Man]

Nice troll, but like most of your efforts, it's hopelessly off the mark.This has absolutely nothing to do with politics, this is a straightforward matter of law, and of law at it its simplest. There is not one country in the developed world that would tolerate the idea that a vigilante can select a man walking down the street minding his own business, presume him to guilty of criminal intent, stalk, engage, and then execute him without trial.

Anyone that think is Zimmerman did anything different clearly doesn't give a fuck about law or justice,and is simply getting off on the notion that carrying a gun is a heroic act that is above any form of responsibility or scrutiny.

This has absolutely nothing to do with politics, this is a straightforward matter of law, and of law at it its simplest.

Then provide the elements of a murder...and EVIDENCE to support it.

There is not one country in the developed world that would tolerate the idea that a vigilante can select a man walking down the street minding his own business, presume him to guilty of criminal intent, stalk, engage, and then execute him without trial.

Evidence doesn't suggest an execution that was presented by the earlier media....but rather a brutal assault and Zimmerman defending himself as a result.
You have zero evidence to support your claim

 

[The Man]

Zimmerman picked a fight the moment that he ignored the police dispatcher's instructions and left his vehicle.He had been specifically told that it was not neccesary for him to follow Treyvon Martin, yet he chose to stalk him.

Still, we can continue to go round in circles if you insist on defending incompetent vigilante killers.

Zimmerman picked a fight the moment that he ignored the police dispatcher's instructions and left his vehicle

When was he told to not leave his vehicle?

 

[The Man]

Not trying to sound like an ass here KD...I understand you are from a different country where burglary is rampant and just a way of life.

Let me explain what is what here in the states...and in this case fla {each state has different laws and punishments although many may be similar}

Murder 1.....premeditated murder...execution by firearm or other means
You stated it was an execution...If so the state would have filed murder 1 charges.

Murder 2..Murder at the moment...crime of passion....Which would apply IF ZIMMERMAN SHOT MARTIN AFTER THE FIGHT WAS OVER AND MARTIN SHOWN NO SIGNS OF FURTHER ATTACK.

Fla manslaughter
Manslaughter by Act (Voluntary Manslaughter): Committing an act that was neither excusable, nor justified that resulted in the death of another person.
Which is pretty close to murder 2...but given the fact that he was getting his head smashed it was excusable....{unless you can show cause why he should be getting his head smashed in}...other than "he got out of his suv"...getting out of his suv gives martin no right to smash his head in.

Manslaughter by Procurement (Voluntary Manslaughter): Persuading, inducing, or encouraging another person to commit an act that resulted in the death of another person.
Does not apply here

Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence (Involuntary Manslaughter): Engaging in “Culpably Negligent” conduct that resulted in the death of another person.

Which is reckless behavior...accidentally shooting someone....backing over someone etc...which also does not apply here...as he intended to shoot him.

Which brings us back to murder 2 {which is what the state charged Zimmerman with}
The state itself is not even claiming Zimmerman shot him after the beating.
The states own evidence shows martin was shot while on top of Zimmerman.
The state has zero evidence that Zimmerman shot him after....only during the beating.

Which brings us to self defense....Martin did not have a mark on him...Zimmerman was beat bloody and yelling for help.
Witnesses saw Zimmerman being beat and screaming for help.
The evidence shows he was beat and was getting his head beat against the sidewalk.
Zimmerman passed two lie detector tests.
With all that....the state did not file charges ....and rightly so.

However...911 tapes were edited to make Zimmerman appear to be a racist.
Footage was edited to hide his bloody head.
Pictures of 12 year old trayvon were given to the media.
The state filed due to public pressure from a misinformed public.
You are still misinformed...this was not an execution....Martin wasnt 12 ....and unedited media was released to show that there was an effort to hide Zimmerman's injuries....as well as make his audio appear racist.
The states complaint itself does not list the elements of a murder...nor probable cause of a murder.

You can hate Zimmerman all you wish....I dont particularly care for him either...however I can not support a RR job just because I dont care for him.
This case should be treated for what it is.....a sad and tragic day for all involved....but no crime has been committed here.


In regard to self defense {Which is what this case is about}

Here below is a man that dies from a martin style attack

A man who was beaten to death Friday night on a Panorama City sidewalk was identified Saturday as Wesley Wahl, 58, of Lake View Terrace.

Police arrested a transient, Ben Skidmore, 23, on suspicion of murder in connection with the slaying, Los Angeles Police Detective Dan Riehl said.

Witnesses said Wahl's head was slammed against the sidewalk several times, Riehl said.

The man was dead on arrival at Panorama Community Hospital, the detective said. No motive was given for the attack.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-02-...e-view-terrace

As said it can kill you.

I hate to sound repetitive ...but hopefully this will help you understand what we actually have going on here.


Edit.
To add even if Zimmerman was the aggressor as you claim he was {but offer no proof} it was still a justified shoot according to the law below


776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

{B}

What this means is even if you start a fight,,,then choose to "quit or give" and still get your head beaten upon the sidewalk you can defend yourself.

Here the yelling for help..is the action of withdraw and quit ...42 seconds worth I might add

Below is the preceding section pertaining to above section.


776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

 

[Alien Allen]

you are wasting your time TM

The only evidence Dundee cares about is that Zimmerman got out of his car and had a gun. Anything else is irrelevant to Dundee

 

[Tangerine]

And the only evidence The Man cares about is that GZ had scratches on his head. Everything else is irrelevant to The Man.

 

[The Man]

If they were scratches I would support a murder charge...but they are impact wounds.
There was no DNA under his nails according to the state.
Its a wonder he didnt get knocked out from the sidewalk.....had he: Martin would have been able to slam his head much harder at that point.
Put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes...you are getting your head slammed by a guy who isnt going to stop....what choice do you have at that point.

 

[Francis]

If they were scratches I would support a murder charge...but they are impact wounds.

Who says he did not cause the damage by himself.. No one really saw the whole situation. When you cause an altercation of course one person can end up on the bottom and top depending on how it all starts. Heck if was being attacked I would defend myself as well.

But when people toss around on the ground, there is a big possibility one or both could hit a body part and end up with injuries cause by their own actions.

I really don't care who wins and losses.. It makes no difference to me and I have barely followed this case but there are some common sense things being said that don't add up..

 

[The Doc]

I really don't think race had much todo with it

 

[buffalo hunter]

I really don't think race had much todo with it

It didn't, not until the racist politicians, and media made it out to be racist for their own agenda. No more then it had to do with Zimmerman being a Democrat, but you can bet your butt if he would have been a Republican they would have been shouting it from the rooftops.

 

[The Man]

I really don't care who wins and losses.. It makes no difference to me and I have barely followed this case but there are some common sense things being said that don't add up..

I hate to see an innocent man get locked up due to political pressure.....using racism for the lever.

The best thing we could have done is the state stuck to their guns and not file charges....Then someone with balls in position such as a governor or president give a speech and tell what really happened.

The incident was major and had national attention and worthy of setting the record straight.....What we got was a quick lipped president that added fuel to the fire....Just as he did when his professor friend was screaming that the police were picking on him because he was black.

To succumb to public pressure and do the wrong thing does nothing to ease the racial tensions that already exist but merely set them back....as well as encourage similar in the future.

The "fuel" crew needed to be put in their place and made a mockery of for intentionally mis-informing the public...Not only was the moral conduct appalling...but actually borderline criminal in regard to "incite of riot" using race for leverage.

That shit wouldn't have happened in my state as people of power will make speeches in regard to social tensions.

 

[The Doc]

A crime is a crime. I really don't think the intent of a crime should affect sentencing.

 

[Alien Allen]

been interesting watching the pundits at MSNBC, Fox and CNN

I swear they must be all watching a different trial to come up with such different conclusions.

Hard to believe but it seems CNN is actually trying to judge fairly.

 

[The Man]

As suspected the judge ruled against the defense on martins history of fighting etc.
Odd though that she allowed the state to "build Zimmerman's presence of mind" for the last several months before the incident.
But not trayvons presence of mind for the last several months nor his capabilities of fighting.

How can one be relevant and not the other.
Martins fighting and capability's are very relevant as to help the jury decide "Could George have defended himself against Martin without a gun."
Lets face it...he is not 12..and was a skilled athlete and fighter..who bragged about fighting.

Not only is the state trying him with zero evidence of a murder ..they are also intentionally blocking his self defense claim by not allowing the defense to show what Zimmerman was up against.

Example if martin had an illness such as MS and made him very weak and unable to "lift 20 pounds" it would be very relevant....The fact he is very capable and likes to exercise such is also very relevant.

If martin was alive and on the stand all this would come out...the fact he is dead should not interfere with the defendant being able have a defense in court.

People you dont have to like Zimmerman...hate his guts thats fine.
This is about a fair trial and justice .....Something that has been slipping away from us as time goes by.
Could be you being charged for something in the future ...your son or daughter.

They are blatantly fucking this guy,without even trying to hide it...thats what you need to be paying attention to.
You dont fuck a guy for something he did that was legal and disregard due process.

 

[Francis]

been interesting watching the pundits at MSNBC, Fox and CNN

I swear they must be all watching a different trial to come up with such different conclusions.

Hard to believe but it seems CNN is actually trying to judge fairly.

I have to agree Allen..

I was reading an article ( not sure if you saw it ) about why was Martin not permitted his right to Stand Your Ground for self defence ?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/opinion/francis-zimmerman-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

 

[The Man]

I have to agree Allen..

I was reading an article ( not sure if you saw it ) about why was Martin not permitted his right to Stand Your Ground for self defence ?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/opinion/francis-zimmerman-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

Sounds good...however Martin didnt have a mark on him....therefore was not meeting deadly force with deadly force.
As said you cant attack the watchman just because he went to see where you went.
Even the gf of martin said that she heard zimmerman ask "what are you doing here"...which shows Zimmerman was wanting to talk.
"What are you doing here?' is not threatening.

 

[The Man]

The former chief was dammed if he does and damned if he dont.
Not only did he do the right thing the original DA did as well and should be commended for such.

(CNN) -- The George Zimmerman investigation was hijacked "in a number of ways" by outside forces, said the former police chief of Sanford, Florida.

Bill Lee, who testified Monday in Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial, told CNN's George Howell in an exclusive interview that he felt pressure from city officials to arrest Zimmerman to placate the public rather than as a matter of justice.

"It was (relayed) to me that they just wanted an arrest. They didn't care if it got dismissed later," he said. "You don't do that."

When Sanford police arrived on the scene on February 26, 2012, after Zimmerman fatally shot unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, they conducted a "sound" investigation, and the evidence provided no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman at the scene, he said.

It had nothing to do with Florida's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law, he said; from an investigative standpoint, it was purely a matter of self-defense.



It was a matter of protocol, Lee said. Arresting Zimmerman based on the evidence at hand would have been a violation of Zimmerman's Fourth Amendment rights, he said. Thus, the Sanford police presented a "capias request" to the state's attorney, asking that the prosecutor determine whether it was a "justifiable homicide," issue a warrant for arrest or present the case to a grand jury.


"The police department needed to do a job, and there was some influence -- outside influence and inside influence -- that forced a change in the course of the normal criminal justice process," Lee said. "With all the influence and the protests and petitions for an arrest, you still have to uphold your oath."

The Sanford police intended to release the tapes once the probe was over, Lee said, because you can't publicize evidence amid an investigation.

Instead, the mayor told him on March 16 the tapes had been released to Martin's family and the public

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/justice/sanford-bill-lee-exclusive/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

A RR job from beginning to end...The state has already put on its evidence in this case....not one single shred of evidence of a murder.
But lets back up further...the states complaint itself did not have have probable cause of a murder...nor list any elements of a murder.

So lets recap.
Sanford police were originally correct.
Pressure was made to make an arrest.
The DA found nothing to support a crime had been committed.
The case gets hijacked.
A special DA is brought in.
A murder charge is filed...that does not list probable cause or elements of the crime.
The judge rather than reject the complaint and demand a proper complaint...honors the complaint.
Defense is denied the right to show the capabilities of who he was in a fight with.
Defense is denied the right to show the disposition and presence of mind of martin.
The state provides zero evidence of a crime during a trial.
Defense asks for dismissal....judge denies...rather than list probable cause.
Defendant by force of judge makes defendant tell whether or not he is going to testify BEFORE all witnesses have testified in the case.

We have gone back to the 1800s in short time....while people cheer.....We are savages......Perhaps people need to dust their mirrors to get a better look at themselves.

 

[All Else Failed]

just came here to drink dundee's tears


u mad bro?

 

[The Man]

just came here to drink dundee's tears


u mad bro?

He may not have been informed yet...news may be somewhat slow in NZ...he still thinks it was an execution as early media had been reporting a year ago.
They apparently do not have quite the interest in US politics there as he does.

 

[Alien Allen]

I do get the outrage over an unarmed person being shot and killed. But there never was anything other than sheer speculation as to what Zimmerman did once he left the car. What is known is that either Martin or some phantom menace broke Martins nose along with scrapes on the back of the head. Meanwhile Martin had no marks on him. It would be a stretch to think Martin did not start the physical confrontation.

The race baiters demanded a trial. They got one and now that is not enough. They want a civil rights violation charge thrown at Zimmerman. And they will lose on that too.

Thank fully this jury ruled based on evidence and not emotion.

 

[The Man]

I do get the outrage over an unarmed person being shot and killed. But there never was anything other than sheer speculation as to what Zimmerman did once he left the car. What is known is that either Martin or some phantom menace broke Martins nose along with scrapes on the back of the head. Meanwhile Martin had no marks on him. It would be a stretch to think Martin did not start the physical confrontation.

The race baiters demanded a trial. They got one and now that is not enough. They want a civil rights violation charge thrown at Zimmerman. And they will lose on that too.

Thank fully this jury ruled based on evidence and not emotion.

I do get the outrage over an unarmed person being shot and killed.

I do to...but then I realize had Martin been armed he may have shot zimmerman when he ran back to the T where Zimmerman was....Would still have been a tragedy.

But there never was anything other than sheer speculation as to what Zimmerman did once he left the car.

True...but we do know the incident was on his way back to his SUV....It is fair to say IMO that Zimmerman said to himself "Well heck he is gone"

What is known is that either Martin or some phantom menace broke Martins nose along with scrapes on the back of the head. Meanwhile Martin had no marks on him. It would be a stretch to think Martin did not start the physical confrontation.

I agree ...additionally a first punch to the nose was martins trademark.


One thing for sure...we have went to "white man lay and waits to execute young black boy on way back from candy store"..to a fairly accurate account of what happened....Either way Zimmerman life has been ruined by false allegations in the beginning.