Martin/Zimmerman-----Poll

[The Man]

Nice troll, but like most of your efforts, it's hopelessly off the mark.This has absolutely nothing to do with politics, this is a straightforward matter of law, and of law at it its simplest.

There is not one country in the developed world that would tolerate the idea that a vigilante can select a man walking down the street minding his own business, presume him to guilty of criminal intent, stalk, engage, and then execute him without trial.

Anyone that think is Zimmerman did anything different clearly doesn't give a fuck about law or justice,and is simply getting off on the notion that carrying a gun is a heroic act that is above any form of responsibility or scrutiny.

There is not one country in the developed world that would tolerate the idea that a vigilante can select a man walking down the street minding his own business, presume him to guilty of criminal intent, stalk, engage, and then execute him without trial.

ROFL...he wasnt executed...he was shot while he was on top of Zimmerman beating the life out of him.
If he was out to execute him all he had to do was shoot him.

his has absolutely nothing to do with politics, this is a straightforward matter of law, and of law at it its simplest

According to you disregarding the advice of dispatch equals ...Zimmerman picked a fight...but then you go on to say he executed him...which one is it?
Or is that pick a fight then execute him?....Do you have anything to support this?

Anyone that think is Zimmerman did anything different clearly doesn't give a fuck about law or justice

Actually they do care about the law...remember its innocent until proven guilty..but you have already convicted the man in your mind saying he executed him.
Gee you are worse than the prosecutors in this case...an execution would be murder 1...there is not one shred of evidence to support murder 1
Technically there is nothing to support murder 2 but they rolled it out anyway to appease the public.
If you remember it was claimed early on to be an execution of a young boy...As more become available we found out this wasnt the truth...sadly you still believe it though...Most of the suckers now remain quiet which is why you dont hear it being repeated.
I am beginning to suspect the news in NZ is worse than that of the US and isnt interested in selling truth but rather emotionalism...sometimes the truth just isnt exciting and doesnt sell ..know what I mean.

 

[The Man]

Good to see that you still can't respond in a logical and credible manner.

However you try to slide out of it with semantics, Zimmerman's actions were excessive and unnecessary. He had no need to be anywhere near Treyvon Martin,and yet he stalked him.You don't have one shred of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman didn't instigate any fight, and I would contend that a person walking down the street minding his own business is less likely to start a fight than a wannabe cop who has already ignored advice from police NOT to pursue him. IMO he's clearly guilty of manslaughter, and it's quite possible that he got away with murder only because there were no witnesses.

By sheer coincidence, the police shot and killed an armed burglar not far from here yesterday. It's kind of big news round here, not because the police were reckless or amateurish in any way, but because it's very rare . In a country of over 4 million people, just 10 criminals have been shot dead by police in the last 20 years.Only one bystander, who had the misfortune to drive into a gun battle between police and criminal has died in the last 20 years Only 4 officers have been shot dead by armed offenders in the same period. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS DIED AS A RESULT OF VIGILANTE ACTIONS.
Community patrols here are run to tight standards, and volunteers are properly trained and vetted so that loose cannons like Zimmerman get weeded out.

Quite honestly I can't see why Zimmerman isn't already in jail. He initiated a confrontation that led to the death of an unarmed teenager. I cannot fathom why anyone would want to defend such behaviour.

Zimmerman's actions were excessive and unnecessary

Agreed he should have stayed in the SUV...but as said that doesnt automatically make him guilty.

You don't have one shred of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman didn't instigate any fight,

No marks on martin...besides thats not how it works here in the states you would have to have proof that Zimmerman instigated a fight.

I would contend that a person walking down the street minding his own business is less likely to start a fight than a wannabe cop who has already ignored advice from police NOT to pursue him.

He confronted Zimmerman while he was on his way back to his SUV....who said what at that moment is not fully known.

IMO he's clearly guilty of manslaughter

Earlier you said he executed him...now you are saying manslaughter...why the change?

and it's quite possible that he got away with murder only because there were no witnesses.

Why let someone bash your head in before you murder them?
Why walk back towards the SUV if you want to murder someone?
Sounds far fetched IMO...and an elaborate murder plan.
For this to have been possible.
He would have waited for the boy coming back from the store.
call the cops.
Go after the young man.
Act like he retreated his search.
Let Martin come out of in between the buildings and come to him on the sidewalk.
Let martin beat him up.
Shoot him during the beating.
Hope no one saw anything in the apt complex.
Sounds pretty far fetched IMO.

The more that comes out the more we find that we were mislead by the media in the beginning.
This is a prosecution of public pressure...no more.
Good chance they might find him guilty just to avoid riots.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

You seem determined to base your argument on a whole heap of contentions which are not supported by any admissible evidence.I'm glad that you agree he should have stayed in the SUV....if he had, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.Any testimony from Zimmerman should be treated as what it is- the testimony of a defendant who allows his wife to commit perjury on his behalf. I can't see any evidence of the press misleading anyone. Zimmerman, on the other hand must be treated with skepticism. There's no evidence or witnesses to corroborate any of his claims. The failure on the part of the police to do their job properly should not be interpreted as vindicating Zimmerman - the responsibility of the police begins and ends with gathering evidence,identifying suspects, and then passing the information to the judicial system to decide whether there is a case to answer. Clearly there is. Oddly enough, the public object to vigilante actions against unarmed and innocent citizens. If they find him guilty, it will be because he has broken the law. If they let him off on a technicality and the public feel that justice has not been served, they most certainly will protest.

This is a simple case of law - Did Zimmerman have the right to stalk, engage, and kill Treyvon Martin simply because Zimmerman decided that Treyvon Martin was worthy of harassment? That was a rhetorical question, btw, just in case anyone really believes that there was any justice to Zimmerman killing Martin.

Those who defend him on this forum, on the other hand, do so for purely political motives.Those who are claiming to defend Zimmerman don't give a damn about him, much less about the innocent victim that he killed.Those arguing for Zimmerman are scared of the very real potential of this case to permanently change the laws around gun use by private citizens. There's a few people out there who cling to the theory that owning a gun somehow entitles you to bypass the law and act as judge, jury and executioner. This has never been the case. You can't justify vigilante killings with feeble excuses like 'he has a concealed carry permit' or on the killer's unsubstantiated testimony. As a watchman it was his job to observe and report, and the standards of behaviour for bona fide watchmen are quite clearly documented. Nowhere in the handbook does it say "IGNORE THE DISPATCHER'S INSTRUCTIONS,RUN THE SUSPECT DOWN, AND IF HE PUTS UP A FIGHT, SHOOT HIM.

Zimmerman exceeded his mandate as a watchman and killed a man. If what he did was acceptable, he could have been out on patrol the next day. Instead, he's facing charges. If he can pull off a defence based on his own testimony and hearsay about the victim, it points to far more serious flaws in the Florida legal system.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

.
Good chance they might find him guilty just to avoid riots.

You really shouldn't disrespect your fellow Americans like this. If the jury find him guilty, it will be because he can't give a credible explanation for his actions.

I'm still baffled as to why you want to surrender your right to go about your personal business, and let unskilled jackasses like Zimmerman decide whether you live or die. Are you really that scared that this case will result in your precious 'right to bear arms' being diminished?

 

[Alien Allen]

give up TM

Dundee keeps mentioned Zimmerman is judge, jury and executioner.

Which is exactly what Dundee is doing

I gotta say though this little nugget just tops em all

I can't see any evidence of the press misleading anyone

It proves Dundee has had a closed mind from the very beginning

From distortions to outright manipulations initially by some of the press this has been a sideshow bent on painting an inaccurate picture.

Those are facts not in dispute

Does it mean Zimmerman is innocent. Nope. Lets wait for a trial when all the facts and evidence are put in place.

 

[Alien Allen]

Nice troll, but like most of your efforts, it's hopelessly off the mark.This has absolutely nothing to do with politics, this is a straightforward matter of law, and of law at it its simplest. There is not one country in the developed world that would tolerate the idea that a vigilante can select a man walking down the street minding his own business, presume him to guilty of criminal intent, stalk, engage, and then execute him without trial.

Anyone that think is Zimmerman did anything different clearly doesn't give a fuck about law or justice,and is simply getting off on the notion that carrying a gun is a heroic act that is above any form of responsibility or scrutiny.

walking down the street minding his own business

True

presume him to guilty of criminal intent

Any evidence to back this up? There is a difference between one assuming another is guilty of criminal intent and being suspicious of criminal intent.

stalk

I think stalking and following are different actions and thus far I don't know if this was stalking

engage

There was an engagement. Not sure as it has been a while since I followed this case but I think there will be some disputing as to who started it. Which should be understandable and does not rule out Zimmermans account being true.

and then execute him without trial.

Good thing you are not a prosecutor. Such rhetoric would never find light of day in a court. If he wanted to execute Martin he has time and space to do it. The gun never appears to have been in the equation until there was a physical altercation.

 

[The Man]

You seem determined to base your argument on a whole heap of contentions which are not supported by any admissible evidence.I'm glad that you agree he should have stayed in the SUV....if he had, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.Any testimony from Zimmerman should be treated as what it is- the testimony of a defendant who allows his wife to commit perjury on his behalf. I can't see any evidence of the press misleading anyone. Zimmerman, on the other hand must be treated with skepticism. There's no evidence or witnesses to corroborate any of his claims. The failure on the part of the police to do their job properly should not be interpreted as vindicating Zimmerman - the responsibility of the police begins and ends with gathering evidence,identifying suspects, and then passing the information to the judicial system to decide whether there is a case to answer. Clearly there is. Oddly enough, the public object to vigilante actions against unarmed and innocent citizens. If they find him guilty, it will be because he has broken the law. If they let him off on a technicality and the public feel that justice has not been served, they most certainly will protest.

This is a simple case of law - Did Zimmerman have the right to stalk, engage, and kill Treyvon Martin simply because Zimmerman decided that Treyvon Martin was worthy of harassment? That was a rhetorical question, btw, just in case anyone really believes that there was any justice to Zimmerman killing Martin.

Those who defend him on this forum, on the other hand, do so for purely political motives.Those who are claiming to defend Zimmerman don't give a damn about him, much less about the innocent victim that he killed.Those arguing for Zimmerman are scared of the very real potential of this case to permanently change the laws around gun use by private citizens. There's a few people out there who cling to the theory that owning a gun somehow entitles you to bypass the law and act as judge, jury and executioner. This has never been the case. You can't justify vigilante killings with feeble excuses like 'he has a concealed carry permit' or on the killer's unsubstantiated testimony. As a watchman it was his job to observe and report, and the standards of behaviour for bona fide watchmen are quite clearly documented. Nowhere in the handbook does it say "IGNORE THE DISPATCHER'S INSTRUCTIONS,RUN THE SUSPECT DOWN, AND IF HE PUTS UP A FIGHT, SHOOT HIM.

Zimmerman exceeded his mandate as a watchman and killed a man. If what he did was acceptable, he could have been out on patrol the next day. Instead, he's facing charges. If he can pull off a defence based on his own testimony and hearsay about the victim, it points to far more serious flaws in the Florida legal system.

You seem determined to base your argument on a whole heap of contentions which are not supported by any admissible evidence

Bashed head and a beat face...if you feel those should not be admissible you may want to move along to another topic that you may have some knowledge in.

.Any testimony from Zimmerman should be treated as what it is- the testimony of a defendant who allows his wife to commit perjury on his behalf

Wow again..so not only do you take unorthodox positions on evidence...you want to judge his testimony based upon what his wife stated regarding funds.

I can't see any evidence of the press misleading anyone.

ROFL...it was stated he executed a young black kid.
911 taped were edited.
pictures of a 12 year old handed out.
Gashes hidden on the back of Zimmerman head...we can compile a rather long list of false information...and intentional omissions that prevent a false story.
Perhaps you missed my earlier post stating that story's sell..Emotionalism/Sensationalism..sometimes the truth is kinda boring.
The news today reminds me of the rag sheets a couple decades ago.....the idea is to get your attention..not publish the truth.

The failure on the part of the police to do their job properly should not be interpreted as vindicating Zimmerman

They did do their job..thus why no arrest.
The arrest came later after one of the crooked prosecutors in the field was assigned to the case....Who should be removed due to gross misconduct.

 

[The Man]

You really shouldn't disrespect your fellow Americans like this. If the jury find him guilty, it will be because he can't give a credible explanation for his actions.

I'm still baffled as to why you want to surrender your right to go about your personal business, and let unskilled jackasses like Zimmerman decide whether you live or die. Are you really that scared that this case will result in your precious 'right to bear arms' being diminished?

You really shouldn't disrespect your fellow Americans like this. If the jury find him guilty, it will be because he can't give a credible explanation for his actions.

LOL getting ones head bashed upon the sidewalk is a credible explanation....unless you want to say he bashed his own head after he shot him....if so do you have any evidence to suggest such.
See KD here in america one is innocent until proven guilty...you want to toast the guy...unless he can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt he is innocent
Rather than beyond a reasonable doubt he is guilty{which is how we do it here}....even with that working in the accused favor....we still incarcerate people found guilty of crimes.....only later to find out they were innocent.

With how you want to apply guilt and conviction...those numbers would be off the hook....akin to pirate ship justice.

 

[The Man]

give up TM

Dundee keeps mentioned Zimmerman is judge, jury and executioner.

Which is exactly what Dundee is doing

I gotta say though this little nugget just tops em all

It proves Dundee has had a closed mind from the very beginning

From distortions to outright manipulations initially by some of the press this has been a sideshow bent on painting an inaccurate picture.

Those are facts not in dispute

Does it mean Zimmerman is innocent. Nope. Lets wait for a trial when all the facts and evidence are put in place.

Yes I feel as if I am arguing with someone who is still convinced it was an execution that we were led to believe by the early media.
IMO he should read many of the developments in the recent months to get up to speed on the incident.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

LOL getting ones head bashed upon the sidewalk is a credible explanation....unless you want to say he bashed his own head after he shot him....if so do you have any evidence to suggest such..

We can go round and round over this again, if that's what you need. The courts will no doubt have photographic evidence of any head wounds that Zimmerman may have sustained, and the only testimony of Zimmerman to point to how they may have occurred.The testimony of defendants is ALWAYS tainted by the very obvious desire to get a favourable result.

And yet you, The Man, are determined to paint a picture that Zimmerman was ambushed, brutally assaulted, and fired his gun as a last line of self defence? Were you there? If so, I'm sure that the police, Zimmerman, the NRA, and every vigilante wannabe in Florida would welcome your expert testimony.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Yes I feel as if I am arguing with someone who is still convinced it was an execution that we were led to believe by the early media.
IMO he should read many of the developments in the recent months to get up to speed on the incident.

Do tell me.Are there any new witnesses? Have any of Treyvon Martin's family committed perjury? Or are you referring to the increasingly silly attempts by the defence to discredit the victim?

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Rather than beyond a reasonable doubt he is guilty{which is how we do it here}..

Apparently, someone forgot to tell Zimmerman. He decided that Treyvon Martin was up to no good and the kid ends up dead.

 

[The Man]

We can go round and round over this again, if that's what you need. The courts will no doubt have photographic evidence of any head wounds that Zimmerman may have sustained, and the only testimony of Zimmerman to point to how they may have occurred.The testimony of defendants is ALWAYS tainted by the very obvious desire to get a favourable result.

And yet you, The Man, are determined to paint a picture that Zimmerman was ambushed, brutally assaulted, and fired his gun as a last line of self defence? Were you there? If so, I'm sure that the police, Zimmerman, the NRA, and every vigilante wannabe in Florida would welcome your expert testimony.

Again you display that you do not believe defendants and their testimony is tainted to get a favorable result...thus having them prove their innocents..rather that the state prove they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
You may want to brush up on the legal system here in the states IJS

And yet you, The Man, are determined to paint a picture that Zimmerman was ambushed, brutally assaulted, and fired his gun as a last line of self defence?

Forensics backed that recently...it was determined that he was shot while on top of Zimmerman.

If you read some of my earlier posts you will see that I was for prosecuting Zimmerman if he had shot martin after martin finished beating him as way of getting even.

Thank god for forensics...sadly though many disregard such evidence and want to convict based upon what they feel rather than evidence.

 

[The Man]

Do tell me.Are there any new witnesses? Have any of Treyvon Martin's family committed perjury? Or are you referring to the increasingly silly attempts by the defence to discredit the victim?

Actually dee dee the girlfriend of martin has....the star witness for the state will be the star witness for the defense....odd how the state lied for so long about her age and location...keeping her secret from the defense.
As far as the mother and father...they have no direct witness account to the incident.

 

[The Man]

Apparently, someone forgot to tell Zimmerman. He decided that Treyvon Martin was up to no good and the kid ends up dead.

Well going about bashing a watchmans head into the sidewalk is being up to no good wouldnt you say?

Let me ask you this...if you were getting your head smashed into the sidewalk would you shoot....or let it continue?
You act as if getting ones head smashed into the sidewalk is no big deal.
Perhaps you could ask someone to pound your head on the sidewalk and not stop until you shoot the guy and tell us of your experience.

You must remember this wasnt a simple fist fight...not a matter of "I will be glad when this guy gets finished beating my face"
And yet even then some people do die from fist blows..much more common than you think
You cant lay there and say I will be glad when this guy gets finished smashing my head into the sidewalk.
The same would hold true for chocking eye gouging knives beating with a brick...you know...a mini sidewalk upon the head.
You have no clue what force someone has while on top of you with their full body weight available to smash your head.
A reasonable person would consider his or her life in peril or in fear of great bodily harm.....if you dont well then you just are unreasonable...and there is no need in going in circles with someone unreasonable

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Well going about bashing a watchmans head into the sidewalk is being up to no good wouldnt you say?

So Treyvon Martin has no right to defend himself when he's stalked and attacked?

The only testimony that says any different comes from the accused. The fiasco surrounding his bail application proves that he has no problem avoiding the truth if it suits him.

Anyway, liker I said....round in circles.You're constantly wanking on about Treyvon Martin's attempts at dsefending himself, when the irrefutable truth is that Zimmerman should never have left his vehicle. You weren't there, you have only the testimony of a killer to suggest how things may have happened, but you are determined to paint Zimmerman as a saint.
Perhaps if some vigilante kills a member of your family, you might one day change your way of thinking. Being in possession of a firearm is not adequate justification for acting out some daft movie fantasy.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Actually dee dee the girlfriend of martin has....the star witness for the state will be the star witness for the defense....odd how the state lied for so long about her age and location...keeping her secret from the defense.
As far as the mother and father...they have no direct witness account to the incident.

you're clutching at straws, boy.Her age and location are irrelevant. If the defence have nothing better to offer than attempting to smear the victim, Zimmerman may as well plead guilty right now.

 

[The Man]

you're clutching at straws, boy.Her age and location are irrelevant. If the defence have nothing better to offer than attempting to smear the victim, Zimmerman may as well plead guilty right now.

Her age and location are irrelevant.

They are very relevant...they presented her as a juvenile.{Has certain protections}
Additionally you need a fucking name and address to serve papers to dispose a witness.
You may want to think through your posts before hitting the submit button

If the defence have nothing better to offer than attempting to smear the victim

LOL.....the idea of having a deposition on her is to ask questions{her account of what happened}
Depositions often lead to further investigation as individuals may give information that was not previously stated.

If the defence have nothing better to offer than attempting to smear the victim

No this isnt an error..I must respond to the same snip twice.
What smearing?
The fact that someone is always in fights is very relevant...as this case is about a fight.
It wouldnt apply on a drug sale or fraud case etc. however.

Let me explain again how this works.
The state will present him as angel in opening and closing arguments...also will put on mom and dad on stand and who ever else they want {with coaching}
ANYTHING they said should be able to have a rebuttal to prove otherwise.....you get it?
All you present is support for a RR job...While no system is perfect...you should never support a RR job {one sided argument}

In addition to him enjoying fighting...drug usage also is relevant.
One it is a mind altering drug...thus why controlled.
Personally IMO it doesnt cause one to be violent...and I would give it no weight if serving on a jury.
I also wouldn't use it as a defense lawyer as it would appear to be grasping...however the fighting is something the jury needs to hear....If it doesnt matter then why the fuck does the state object?

Fuck you will hear what the guy had pulled from his intestines and what he had for breakfast during an autopsy.{irrelevant}...but claim the fact he enjoyed to fight irrelevant?

The trial is estimated to last 6 weeks {lots of irrelevancy}

Zimmerman may as well plead guilty right now

Perhaps...fla is written pretty fucked up on homicide cases...he stands little chance of an aquital
He even went as far as to waive his stand your ground hearing {which could have got the cased tossed before trial}...why its an obvious rr job...the state would use it for milking and the judge is bias.

Hopefully he will flip em all off {Judge and prosecutors}..when the guilty verdict comes back....and some good can come from this..others state workers have been coming forward in regard to the dishonesty of whats been going on with the case.

Odd that the trial is set to go before that gets panned out.

 

[The Man]

And again for the record..I wouldnt mind seeing the guy do a little time for being stupid.
However I do not see him as a murderer.
He was stupid...put himself in harms way{knowing better}
However if you are in the process of getting killed I can understand having to resort to the use of lethal force.
Lets face it getting his head bashed in was not in the plans.
IMO he just wanted to keep track of martin until the police showed up and was not expecting an altercation...stupid yes...deprived mind no...not guilty if I was on the jury.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

They are very relevant...they presented her as a juvenile.{Has certain protections}
Additionally you need a fucking name and address to serve papers to dispose a witness.
You may want to think through your posts before hitting the submit button

Do tell me, was she there on the night? What did she see? My whole point is that she's not a witness.She's just part of the Zimmerman camp's attempt to smear the victim.
]
Save your conspiracy theories for after the trial.I'm sure that when the evidence points to Zimmerman being guilty, you'll have a glib answer as to why the man with the gun just has to be innocent.