Martin/Zimmerman-----Poll

[The Man]

Groundhog day. Abuses people, then runs away.

The ego behind such a pompous username should have been a warning that winning is more important than facts to this clown.

I detect some jealousy from the Dundee.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

I detect some jealousy from the Dundee.

Jealous? Of your total inability to debate, or your insistence on behaving like a teenage newbie?

 

[The Man]

Ole redro has been busy...smoke his ass then he red reps.....like a little girl
What a pathetic life....so tell me red...do you jerk off while red repping..or just while reading my posts.

 

[Alien Allen]

Sensitive? Nope... I'm just issuing a warning that you should watch it with the personal attacks.

Here's a mindfuck for you... Zimmerman's defense has to actually prove that Martin was smashing his head to begin with. I know, proving something is a novel concept for you... but that's the way things go in court. In order for Zimmerman to justify shooting Martin, he has to prove that Martin attacked him and was pounding his head into the pavement like he's claimed. Some lacerations to the head don't prove anything except that he was injured in some way, most likely due to his head impacting the concrete in some fashion.

You have stated as fact that Trayvon Martin bashed Zimmerman's head into the pavement... on numerous occasions. I'm too lazy to go back and find them, but we all know that you've said it. You can try to lie about it, but we all know the truth, so it'd just make you look even more foolish than you do already if you chose to pursue that course of action.

Zimmerman does not have to prove anything Retro. All his defense needs to do is rebut in a way to cause reasonable doubt. It is possible Zimmerman may not even testify and defense will let the prosecution evidence be scrutinized enough to create reasonable doubt. Included in that would be the issue of whether Zimmerman thought his life was in danger.

 

[Aeval]

Zimmerman does not have to prove anything Retro. All his defense needs to do is rebut in a way to cause reasonable doubt. It is possible Zimmerman may not even testify and defense will let the prosecution evidence be scrutinized enough to create reasonable doubt. Included in that would be the issue of whether Zimmerman thought his life was in danger.

That's the key right there and the prosecution is going to have a tough time with it. It's easy to say "no, GZ, your life *wasn't* in danger", but if he thought it was...who knows....

I'm still predicting the charges being lessened to manslaughter.

 

[The Man]

Zimmerman does not have to prove anything Retro. All his defense needs to do is rebut in a way to cause reasonable doubt. It is possible Zimmerman may not even testify and defense will let the prosecution evidence be scrutinized enough to create reasonable doubt. Included in that would be the issue of whether Zimmerman thought his life was in danger.

Exactly..Retro has it backwards..he thinks the defense has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt rather than the state having to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
The state will lie and do whatever they have to do to put doubt in the defense however.

 

[The Man]

That's the key right there and the prosecution is going to have a tough time with it. It's easy to say "no, GZ, your life *wasn't* in danger", but if he thought it was...who knows....

I'm still predicting the charges being lessened to manslaughter.

He will still get hung if convicted ..minimum 25 as it involved a firearm

 

[The Man]

I wouldnt mind giving the guy 5 years or so for being stupid..but I couldnt convict him of murder

 

[retro]

Zimmerman does not have to prove anything Retro. All his defense needs to do is rebut in a way to cause reasonable doubt. It is possible Zimmerman may not even testify and defense will let the prosecution evidence be scrutinized enough to create reasonable doubt. Included in that would be the issue of whether Zimmerman thought his life was in danger.

He has to provide a reasonable doubt that he didn't commit murder... I believe I've said that at least one time already. The way that he provides a reasonable doubt that it wasn't murder is to show that he believed his life was in danger, and that he did not initiate the confrontation to begin with. Stand your ground would not apply if he attacked Martin or otherwise initiated the confrontation, otherwise you'd be saying that murder was legal so long as you let yourself get beaten up to the point where you could claim you'd be killed if you didn't kill the other individual.

 

[retro]

Ole redro has been busy...smoke his ass then he red reps.....like a little girl
What a pathetic life....so tell me red...do you jerk off while red repping..or just while reading my posts.

You really have an issue with negative rep, don't you? I've never seen someone freak out about it more than you... no wait, Tommy Tooter flipped out about it as much as you do.

 

[The Man]

You really have an issue with negative rep, don't you? I've never seen someone freak out about it more than you... no wait, Tommy Tooter flipped out about it as much as you do.

I have a problem with people who act like little girls when they get stomped in a debate and red rep me dozens of times.
Akin to tossing rocks at someone after they beat your ass.......sissified

 

[Johnfromokc]

Zimmerman does not have to prove anything Retro. All his defense needs to do is rebut in a way to cause reasonable doubt. It is possible Zimmerman may not even testify and defense will let the prosecution evidence be scrutinized enough to create reasonable doubt. Included in that would be the issue of whether Zimmerman thought his life was in danger.

And you still disregard the FACT that Zimmerman followed Martin after being TRAINED and TOLD not to. Zimmerman put himself in a completely avoidable situation. It's like YOU starting a bar fight, and finding yourself getting your ass kicked, you pull your gun and shoot the guy YOU started the fight with and then claiming self defense. That won't fly - and neither does your excuses for Zimmerman.

That's why I say you are a Zimmerbigot Allen - because both you and TM disregard all common sense and logic in defense of Zimmerman. I wonder what tune you Zimmerbigots would be singing if it was a black "watchman" and a white unarmed 17 yeard old that was shot? We all know that answer don't we Allen?

 

[The Man]

He has to provide a reasonable doubt that he didn't commit murder... I believe I've said that at least one time already. The way that he provides a reasonable doubt that it wasn't murder is to show that he believed his life was in danger, and that he did not initiate the confrontation to begin with. Stand your ground would not apply if he attacked Martin or otherwise initiated the confrontation, otherwise you'd be saying that murder was legal so long as you let yourself get beaten up to the point where you could claim you'd be killed if you didn't kill the other individual.

I will only comment on the area I bolded for simplicity.
Even if he did start it{which there is no evidence he did}....he doesn't have to let martin beat him to death..you have the right to defend yourself.
Lets say one guy slaps another at a bar for talking to his girlfriend..you cant beat the guy to death that slapped you.

SYG is more about meet force with force{you arent required to retreat}
That really doesnt apply here anyway as George couldnt retreat..so it is a claim of plain self defense.
Now one could say apply it in a way as "I was getting my head bashed in ..so I met force with force"
He doesnt need to use SYG in this case however as there was no option to retreat..according to george anyway.

 

[retro]

I have a problem with people who act like little girls when they get stomped in a debate and red rep me dozens of times.
Akin to tossing rocks at someone after they beat your ass.......sissified

Says the individual sending all kinds of red rep and PMs. :24: Seriously dude... it's the internet, calm down. Oh, and the person that's been "stomped" in this discussion is you. You've been stomped by myself, John, Tim, KD, and more than a few others. The problem is that you live in a fantasy world where you alone are capable of victory. One of the greatest virtues someone can learn is the ability to admit defeat... and well, if you took an unbiased look through the last 32 (at 40 posts per page) pages of this thread, you'd be forced to admit that you have not come out on top.

Your response to arguments that you cannot refute is to throw out mass amounts of ad hominem attacks and pejorative comments towards everyone, in a futile attempt to distract from your very obvious defeat. Now, the sooner that you decide you're going to act like an adult, the sooner we can move on and perhaps even have a productive discussion. However, if you continue to behave as though you never emotionally proceeded beyond Jr. High, then people are going to continue to mercilessly beat you up in their comments towards you, and push your buttons until you finally have a freak out session and end up the laughingstock of the forum (more than you are already anyway). Your childish antics are tired and boring, and honestly just give us a picture of how small a person you truly are.

For your own sake... please grow up, because you certainly aren't doing yourself any favors. I truly hope that you do not behave in this manner in your "real" life. Your blood pressure has got to be through the roof if this is how you react any any and every negative thing that happens to you.

 

[retro]

I will only comment on the area I bolded for simplicity.
Even if he did start it{which there is no evidence he did}....he doesn't have to let martin beat him to death..you have the right to defend yourself.
Lets say one guy slaps another at a bar for talking to his girlfriend..you cant beat the guy to death that slapped you.

SYG is more about meet force with force{you arent required to retreat}
That really doesnt apply here anyway as George couldnt retreat..so it is a claim of plain self defense.
Now one could say apply it in a way as "I was getting my head bashed in ..so I met force with force"
He doesnt need to use SYG in this case however as there was no option to retreat..according to george anyway.

Then it's the perfect murder. Let's say that you want to kill someone... according to you, all that needs to happen is this, if you lived in Florida or a state with a similar SYG law on the books. Get a concealed carry license for your firearm, and seek out the person you would like to kill. Confront them and initiate a fight, let them beat you up to the point where you could have a legitimate fear for your life, and then pull out your gun and shoot them to death. Do you realize just how asinine that is?

 

[The Man]

And you still disregard the FACT that Zimmerman followed Martin after being TRAINED and TOLD not to. Zimmerman put himself in a completely avoidable situation. It's like YOU starting a bar fight, and finding yourself getting your ass kicked, you pull your gun and shoot the guy YOU started the fight with and then claiming self defense. That won't fly - and neither does your excuses for Zimmerman.

That's why I say you are a Zimmerbigot Allen - because both you and TM disregard all common sense and logic in defense of Zimmerman. I wonder what tune you Zimmerbigots would be singing if it was a black "watchman" and a white unarmed 17 yeard old that was shot? We all know that answer don't we Allen?

It doesnt matter that George got of of the SUV...stupid yes..but not criminal.
You are trying to equate George getting out of his SUV as starting the fight...you have no proof he started it.
And it really makes little difference anyway...what makes a difference is when the fight reached the point of "danger of serious physical harm"

 

[Tim]

I will only comment on the area I bolded for simplicity.
Even if he did start it{which there is no evidence he did}....he doesn't have to let martin beat him to death..you have the right to defend yourself.
Lets say one guy slaps another at a bar for talking to his girlfriend..you cant beat the guy to death that slapped you.

SYG is more about meet force with force{you arent required to retreat}
That really doesnt apply here anyway as George couldnt retreat..so it is a claim of plain self defense.
Now one could say apply it in a way as "I was getting my head bashed in ..so I met force with force"
He doesnt need to use SYG in this case however as there was no option to retreat..according to george anyway.

You really need to learn the law.

If Zimmerman started the fight by throwing the first punch or grabbing Martin or trying to unlawfully detain him, then Zimmerman can NOT use the stand your ground law in this case. If Zimmerman committed any crimes at all, then the stand your ground law cannot be used.

 

[The Man]

Then it's the perfect murder. Let's say that you want to kill someone... according to you, all that needs to happen is this, if you lived in Florida or a state with a similar SYG law on the books. Get a concealed carry license for your firearm, and seek out the person you would like to kill. Confront them and initiate a fight, let them beat you up to the point where you could have a legitimate fear for your life, and then pull out your gun and shoot them to death. Do you realize just how asinine that is?

You still misunderstand it...you cant use deadly force for simple fights...black eye fat lips wont cut it.
You are still missing the purpose of SYG ...its you are not required to retreat
And no you cant shoot them after the fight....as the threat is no longer present.

Now if George shot this guy after the guy got up from him...then he should face murder charges and rightly so.
Which may have very well happened but there is no evidence of such...I do find the gunshot going in straight a little odd.
I have my doubts about George..I just dont want a conviction because he got out of the SUV

 

[The Man]

You really need to learn the law.

If Zimmerman started the fight by throwing the first punch or grabbing Martin or trying to unlawfully detain him, then Zimmerman can NOT use the stand your ground law in this case. If Zimmerman committed any crimes at all, then the stand your ground law cannot be used.

You need to learn to read...I didnt state he would be using SYG...but rather basic self defense.
Number two SYG is about meet force with force...if someone grabbed your arm you are not allowed to beat them to death.
Number 3 it has not been shown that Zimmerman committed a crime.

As said you really need to learn to read...and perhaps change your posting style as well..Putting words is someones mouth has no solid foundation.

 

[retro]

You still misunderstand it...you cant use deadly force for simple fights...black eye fat lips wont cut it.
You are still missing the purpose of SYG ...its you are not required to retreat
And no you cant shoot them after the fight....as the threat is no longer present.

Now if George shot this guy after the guy got up from him...then he should face murder charges and rightly so.
Which may have very well happened but there is no evidence of such...I do find the gunshot going in straight a little odd.
I have my doubts about George..I just dont want a conviction because he got out of the SUV

You're not paying attention to what I said.

"Confront them and initiate a fight, let them beat you up to the point where you could have a legitimate fear for your life"

Does that sound like a "simple fight" to you? Please defend the scenario that I laid out... it seems to be a legitimate claim for your understanding of the SYG legislation. I swear, it's like talking to a brick wall.