Is the U S shirking it’s duty to democracy ?

[Xeno]

putting on a show for the masses eh?

is that what you are doing with the fonts and settings as it makes you think you stand out

I imagine you support Obama as that too is style over substance

you want a one world govt Zeno? You want socialism? If so then expect to get bashed here. Because that would not be what the vast majority support

I merely see three or four people whom choose to think differently than I do. I respect your own views on how things should be done, but do not expect me to convert to your way of thinking. Besides, this is a mere discussion. Bashed? No one has even attempted to do so simply because I have shown others respect overall. Do not make veiled threats and attempt to metaphorically speak for the masses here. If you and you alone feel the need to bash my ideals and beliefs then do so. As an Anon it does not matter what you wish to do to be quite honest. To be upset or to argue with you by acting like a child would prove nothing except that I can tune my mindset to that of yours. I do wish to coexist in a civil manner here though. So we agree to disagree. It is rather simple.

Yet, you feel the need to avoid the main topic of this thread by merely commenting on me as an individual. If anyone is putting on a show it is you and you alone. My text, font, and formatting is merely a signature of Anonymous. It is how I write. If one wishes to read what I have to say then so be it. If one chooses to ignore what I have to say then so be it. I merely wish to speak my mind overall. I do not go with the flow of what is popular with the masses. I flow with what is right and wrong with this world. I make my own path instead of following others at times. It is what an individual does. What I want is a world in which people are compassionate to one another no matter the differences or distances between us. If that makes me a bad person then I suppose I rather be a "villain" after all with that type of logic in mind. I do not do what is popular with the majority. I do what is right even if its for the few. That is the difference. I do not break my values in order to please those whom would do nothing and yet I do not hate those whom do nothing either. Everyone has a right to do as they please when in this situation. I just choose to help rather than be self-centered. It is that simple.

By the way, I did change my fonts, colors, and formatting to better suit people's needs on this thread proving that I am not unreasonable when I am asked nicely to do so. So I now wonder how one such as yourself could possible manage to misspell my name. Should I change the size of my text as well?

 

[Guyzerr]

Funny how the majority have no problem reading my posts. Though I can do my best to change my fonts, colors, and formatting. One must even tend to the needs of the elderly I suppose.

Put a poll up to see how many people are actually ok with your font choices. As far as making mention of it being an age issue that's hardly the reason but I have to give you a bit of credit for the feeble attempt at a low shot. It's just a pain in the ass to read. All we have to do is get you to see the light on using plain old regular text without it being bold and we've made some headway.

 

[Guyzerr]

By the way, I did change my fonts, colors, and formatting to better suit people's needs on this thread proving that I am not unreasonable when I am asked nicely to do so.

I asked you nicely when you first joined here and you blew me off. :24:

Edit: I unbolded his quote.

 

[All Else Failed]

Of course it is a bit suicidal in most aspects,

Do you even read what you say? Just here, you admit that doing what you want to do would be suicidal for any nation.

I applaud you to be quite honest, but then do exactly as the definition of the word "nothing" means. If you cannot do that then you are only contradicting yourself in your statements. We should mind our own business, right? Then why not simply mind yours when it comes to what our nation wants to do as well? It is not your problem as you have stated many times. Impossible and incredibly naive? No. It is simply laziness and carelessness that you cannot simply erase the lines that have caused this world more grief than actual peace. Interesting?

Yeah, sorry, not wanting to go the way of the Roman Empire is not laziness or contradiction. Intervention on the scale you want to would completely ruin us.


I'm going to say this again: RUIN US.



Also, you're incredibly naive if you think erasing borders would just solve our problems. Since the dawn of time mankind has been territorial. Distinct cultures and peoples like to establish their lands and have their people thrive. There is nothing wrong with this. Even if we did not have borders, do you seriously think mankind would just form an international bongo circle and forget about history, or?

You only live once and living as a coward is not something I want to remember if one does remember their past in the end of all things.

yeah, you're right, you only do live once, so why commit suicidal acts that would bankrupt and destroy an entire nation by mass intervention?


How old are you, really? I want to know.

 

[Xeno]

Put a poll up to see how many people are actually ok with your font choices. As far as making mention of it being an age issue that's hardly the reason but I have to give you a bit of credit for the feeble attempt at a low shot. It's just a pain in the ass to read. All we have to do is get you to see the light on using plain old regular text without it being bold and we've made some headway.

You still do not seem to understand that I do not do what the masses expect me to do. This is not about whom is with me and whom is against me in a sense. It is simply one Anon speaking his mind however I see fit to speak my mind. If I want to write my opinions in rainbow colors, comic sans ms, centered off formatting, and with size of seven then I shall do so. You really do not understand that Anons are do not bend simply because the masses wish one to do so. Then again, I did try to avoid conflict by changing my writing style in some aspects. A feeble attempt at a low shot? No, my dear "friend". The fact is that you are elderly. The fact is that you requested that I should change my writing style. So what I said is merley true. Just because you do not agree with how it was worded does not mean I was taking a cheap shot at you. There is no reason for me to even do so. Though I disagree with you about various things, Guzyer...I still respect your views overall. It is that simple for me. I do not keep pressing the matter like some whom feel the need to convert people's way of thinking.

I asked you nicely when you first joined here and you blew me off. :24:

Edit: I unbolded his quote.

Complaining and overall "bitching" about my writing style is not civil. We went through this once before in another thread, Guyzer. There is a difference.

 

[Xeno]

Do you even read what you say? Just here, you admit that doing what you want to do would be suicidal for any nation.





Yeah, sorry, not wanting to go the way of the Roman Empire is not laziness or contradiction. Intervention on the scale you want to would completely ruin us.


I'm going to say this again: RUIN US.



Also, you're incredibly naive if you think erasing borders would just solve our problems. Since the dawn of time mankind has been territorial. Distinct cultures and peoples like to establish their lands and have their people thrive. There is nothing wrong with this. Even if we did not have borders, do you seriously think mankind would just form an international bongo circle and forget about history, or?


yeah, you're right, you only do live once, so why commit suicidal acts that would bankrupt and destroy an entire nation by mass intervention?


How old are you, really? I want to know.

Doing nothing is just as suicidal as taking action. At least in "death" one has decided to fight for something then die for nothing at all. Again, I shall say, everyone has the freedom to do as they please when faced with this situation. I merely choose to make a difference rather than make political and financial excuses on why we should mind our own business. So I am "naive" as you say. That is your opinion and an opinion that is respected. Just because something has been one way does not mean it cannot go another way. You mentioned that mankind is territorial. True. Mankind was also nomadic at one point in time. Yet we progressed over time. That did not happen by sitting on our ass and doing absolutely nothing. Why not forget about our past conflicts? It is because we hang onto the past so much that we are at one another's throats. Do you even know why we hate one another or whom did what first to what nation? No. You do not. No one really does to be quite honest. No one knows how we all came to hate one another from the very start. So why not try to change? I agree that we cannot take up every cause in this world all at once, but who said anything about making a difference in one day so to speak? I believe we should continue to take things one step at a time, but even still I believe that what we are doing is right. Progress involves action. No action is what leads to a decline in one's nation. The moment you stand still the world shall pass you by in an instant.

To ask an Anon their age, name, location, or even overall identity is a bit moronic. Since when does Anonymous unmask themselves to those whom do not even understand Anonymous? I mean no offense though. It is just how we are overall. I respect your opinion and thoughts. I can see why most would rather do nothing and worry about our own nation. It, at times, makes sense. However, I do not see myself willing to sacrifice people's lives across the world to save my own. It is not what I am about. No matter the consequences I may suffer in the end. I shall not be a knowing or unknowing accomplice to the deaths of those whom seek our nation's help. So in the end we agree to disagree. It is really that simple.

 

[retro]

Here's an important point/question that I haven't seen raised here.

Why should the United States get involved in conflicts around the world, especially ones wherethe conflicts are rooted in internal strife? Would we appreciate it if there was an internal conflict here, and France, Russia, the UK, or others decided to "intervene" on the behalf of one side or the other?

How is it the duty of the United States to force our will on another sovereign nation? I gave a list of countries ruled by either a single party, monarchy, theocracy, or dictatorship. Should we involve ourselves in their business and tell them how they should run their countries? We can't force democracy on countries just because we happen to think it would be better for them. It has to be something that they do on their own, not something that is decided for them by outside forces.

If people are unhappy enough with the way things are being run in their country, there is a good chance that they will revolt on their own, without anyone else's help. That's how the United States was formed for crying out loud. Our founding fathers had such an issue with how they were being ruled by England that they rose up and declared themselves to be a sovereign nation. Yes, I do realize that we had assistance from the French in a few different ways, but the fact of the matter remains that it was a decision that was made by the majority of American colonists, not something that France, Spain, or Portugal decided for us.

So in answer to the original question. No, the United States is not shirking its duty to democracy. In fact, I challenge the premise of the question at its roots. What duty does the United States have to democracy? I say none. The United States isn't even a democracy by definition. The United States is a Federal Presidential Constitutional Republic that utilizes a representative democracy as part of its checks and balances. So no, the United States is not a democracy, and those that t think otherwise are either ignorant, woefully uninformed, or both.

The United States has a duty to its citizens first and foremost. It does not have a duty to the rest of the world, especially if it comes at the expense of its own citizens.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Nowhere in there do I see anything about imposing democracy on the rest of the world. Nowhere. If you can find it, please let me know because I'm obviously missing something.

 

[All Else Failed]

Doing nothing is just as suicidal as taking action. At least in "death" one has decided to fight for something then die for nothing at all. Again, I shall say, everyone has the freedom to do as they please when faced with this situation. I merely choose to make a difference rather than make political and financial excuses on why we should mind our own business. So I am "naive" as you say. That is your opinion and an opinion that is respected. Just because something has been one way does not mean it cannot go another way. You mentioned that mankind is territorial. True. Mankind was also nomadic at one point in time. Yet we progressed over time. That did not happen by sitting on our ass and doing absolutely nothing. Why not forget about our past conflicts? It is because we hang onto the past so much that we are at one another's throats. Do you even know why we hate one another or whom did what first to what nation? No. You do not. No one really does to be quite honest. No one knows how we all came to hate one another from the very start. So why not try to change? I agree that we cannot take up every cause in this world all at once, but who said anything about making a difference in one day so to speak? I believe we should continue to take things one step at a time, but even still I believe that what we are doing is right. Progress involves action. No action is what leads to a decline in one's nation. The moment you stand still the world shall pass you by in an instant.

To ask an Anon their age, name, location, or even overall identity is a bit moronic. Since when does Anonymous unmask themselves to those whom do not even understand Anonymous? I mean no offense though. It is just how we are overall. I respect your opinion and thoughts. I can see why most would rather do nothing and worry about our own nation. It, at times, makes sense. However, I do not see myself willing to sacrifice people's lives across the world to save my own. It is not what I am about. No matter the consequences I may suffer in the end. I shall not be a knowing or unknowing accomplice to the deaths of those whom seek our nation's help. So in the end we agree to disagree. It is really that simple.

Ok now you're just basically tossing logic and reason aside. You're still not seeing the fact that mass intervention around the world in every single place where there are human rights violation is simply infeasible and totally destructive to anyone who would even think about doing it. EVEN IF we do it progressivly and slowly. That kind of grand scale of war will just simply put crushing debt upon us at a slower rate, but nonetheless still destroy us.



It is not about holding onto the past. It is about remembering valuable lessons from the past. Simply throwing out history is dangerous.


Anon is pretty childish and a worn-out internet meme. I know enough about the "movement" to realize that it is not worth anyone's time.

 

[Accountable]

I have seen uncensored documents about The Invasion of Iraq through WikiLeaks and to be honest I found it to be a bit underhanded by the United States to claim that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when they had none. Though I still supported the end result. Saddam Hussein was captured and executed.

So you're Machiavellian? The ends never, ever, justify the means.

Of course our nation had their own agenda which I shall agree had to do with oil and most likely land as well. Having a foothold in Iraq would be ideal in all aspects, but that is where my argument and your argument differentiate overall. You see the different angles and reasonings why the United States intervenes and you are correct.

No, I don't. There is one reason, using whatever rhetoric is convenient. One reason for invading Iraq, using the momentum of the war in Afghanistan and a song & dance about WMDs. One reason for invading Afghanistan, using 9/11 as justification. One reason for attacking, fomenting a civil war, and soon to invade Libya, this time giving lip service to caring about oppressed people.

Most times our nation just has a personal agendas or different motives for intervening, but so do all causes at times. That does not make the cause worthless simply because our agenda may change from time to time. It is not like our agenda has changed to killing everyone and everything in sight. The only reason it seems that way is because we have to face facts. In a manner of black and white...there are just too many villains than heroes in this world and to choose to sit back as well as do nothing is simply becoming an accomplice to every government in other nations that choose to abuse their power. This is not about politics.

This, what? This war?? It's absolutely about politics. Politics, power, and oil, terms which are not always distinguishable.

 

[All Else Failed]

If he thinks he is a Machiavellian, he's misinterpreting what Machiavelli said.

 

[Tim]

The United States has a duty to its citizens first and foremost. It does not have a duty to the rest of the world, especially if it comes at the expense of its own citizens.

Most of what we do around the world IS in our best interest. Like it or not we cannot just hide behind our borders and forget the rest of the world. The health and stability of the rest of the world has a direct impact on our health and stability.

 

[retro]

Most of what we do around the world IS in our best interest. Like it or not we cannot just hide behind our borders and forget the rest of the world. The health and stability of the rest of the world has a direct impact on our health and stability.

Way to ignore every single other thing that I had to say, and focus in one the one thing that you could try to pick apart. Care to address the issues of forcing a form on government that we deem appropriate onto sovereign nations? What if China decided our system of government wasn't what they wanted for us, and tried to impose communism on us. Isn't that what we spent the 40 years after WW2 trying to prevent? Yet people like you seem to be a proponent of forcing "democracy" wherever we see fit.

 

[Codrus]

Tis ashame you are a V.I.P. User here at oTz. You truly give them a bad name to be quite honest. Though you have proved my point. Stupidity is a decision and not something you learn. It is good to know what decision you have made overall though. Rather comical...a /t/roll become a V.I.P. User here of all places. Then again, controversy does proceed this forum. Alas, let me know when you are ready to truly speak instead of putting on a show for the masses.

:24::24:

tis truly a shame .........that you insist on continuing to hurl weakly veiled insults at me,...its ok sparky.

and if my presence truly offends....im sure a petition to have me removed would be warmly received by all since im obviously a detriment to the entire forum ..or you could simply ignore me,....but that would not be dignified if you simply ignored someone whom you continue to profess is stricken with stupidity would it?

 

[Francis]

Great new Avatar :24:

 

[Guyzerr]

Great new Avatar :24:

:homo:

 

[Greatest I am]

I don't agree with that. Each country is in charge of it's own fate - as much as the west has tried, it can't force democracy unto others, and even if it could; it's a pointless endeavour. Democracy has to arise from within, otherwise it fitters away as quickly as it came.

The undeveloped world is naturally behind the developed; democracy is the next step in the cycle for them. I can't know for sure as to what the next step in the cycle for America is after democracy.

They are hardly in charge if they have to follow a course as you indicate.

If the U S wants to keep it's leading position, it has to continue to lead.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

There are some extreme cases when involvement is necessary, WWII for example. However since then we have wasted untold Trillions in efforts to control the outcome of conflicts and political movements around the world. We just can't afford it any more...

You have forgotten how profitable war is.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I find it funny that people who want to preserve their culture and protect it from the corrosive ways of globalism are "small minded fish".



For the love of everything decent in the world please stop formatting your posts like this


Also, you're assuming everyone in the world wants democracy . If a people want to live a certain way, let them. It is none of our business.




"tribal mentality" exists because certain people do things differently, and enjoy things operating in a certain fashion. Trying to force everyone into one big "global tribe" is a pretty good way of destroying culture.

Hogwash.

Look around at the China towns or the various ethnic quarters. Culture is alive and well and cares not if it lives in a democratic system or not.

Regards
DL

 

[Zorak]

You have forgotten how profitable war is.

Regards
DL

Pray tell how you make a profit out of war?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War

It's got some massive overheads. Bear in mind that if we accept the total cost of the Iraq war as 700-800 Billion, the remaining oil in the entire world has been estimated to only value up to 100-200 billion.

http://www.fleetstreetinvest.co.uk/oil/oil-outlook/oil-world-worth-00027.html

Where else do you make a profit in war? Prolonged military occupation? Selling Big Macs? Rebuilding the hospitals and roads and schools you knocked down?

 

[Greatest I am]

We shouldn't go over there at all. :shrug:
Remember, half the people of Libya are loyal to Gadaffi; you help one set and you just alienate yourselves from the other.

The police should not arrest criminals because it will alienate other criminals. LOL.

Regards
DL