Is the U S shirking it’s duty to democracy ?

[Accountable]

[...]The fact remains that we need to make a change in this world. Forget about politics. Forget about boarders. Forget about countries. Forget about differences in religion or culture.

Forget about sovereignty? Forget about autonomy? Forget about Liberty?
We know what's best for the world, whether they know it yet or not; is that it?
We shouldn't be going around the world attacking countries that haven't attacked us so that we can get their oil, but we should be doing exactly that for humanitarian reasons? I suppose if we happen to get some extra oil in the process, that's just gravy, am I right?

Think about what you're saying.

 

[Tim]

We have already done that when it comes to North and South Korea. You would have us do nothing and mind our own business. That is a simply a sign of how selfish some of us have become in a sense. It is rather ironic how people call for action and want a change, but only here. Not anywhere else. Just here. Forget the rest of the world. Let us just focus on us. What a familiar concept. That is what we did in a sense with World War One. Then again, the Germans sank the Lusitania. Should we simply wait till something happens to us for us to intervene once more? Those whom ignore history are doomed to repeat it once more.

I applaud your stance, I am right there with you, but you are arguing with people who are only interested in themselves. They don't even have a sense of community let alone compassion for someone in another country. They don't even think that basic health care is appropriate for their own citizens so how can you convince them that our presence is sometimes needed in the world.
If they have no problem sitting back and watching their fellow citizens die, what makes you think that some brown person a continent away will get an ounce of pity from them???

 

[Codrus]

History only repeats itself when you learn nothing from it.

(...I believe we have learned not to make the same mistake...) ​

i have learned from my history that beans make me fart,...and my farts stink........but i eat them anyway....have i learned nothing?

 

[Accountable]

I applaud your stance, I am right there with you, but you are arguing with people who are only interested in themselves. They don't even have a sense of community let alone compassion for someone in another country. They don't even think that basic health care is appropriate for their own citizens so how can you convince them that our presence is sometimes needed in the world.
If they have no problem sitting back and watching their fellow citizens die, what makes you think that some brown person a continent away will get an ounce of pity from them???

Yup. I remember this was EXACTLY the sentiment you mentioned time and time again when we invaded Iraq and took out their murderous dictator, huh?

 

[Alien Allen]

Yup. I remember this was EXACTLY the sentiment you mentioned time and time again when we invaded Iraq and took out their murderous dictator, huh?

amazing aint it the double standard

we are criticized as a country for meddling and Tim wants us to do more

mind boggling

we need to pull back troops everywhere and protect ourselves. Because no other country gives a hoot about us except when they get our money

 

[Tim]

Yup. I remember this was EXACTLY the sentiment you mentioned time and time again when we invaded Iraq and took out their murderous dictator, huh?

We didn't go into Iraq to dispose Saddam... and don't even pretend we did.

Yes, Saddam was a horrible dictator that the world is better off without, but you don't invade a country and kill over a million of that's countries citizens to do it.

We had our chance to rid the world of Saddam when our CIA assured his inner circle that we would assist a coup. But we left them high and dry when they made their move and they all ended up at the end of Saddam's gun...

With every situation we would need to weigh the options and decide what the human toll would be. There are times when we should do nothing, send aid, help a coup, blockade the ports or use our military.
But to sit here and say we need to stay out of the worlds affairs is a very simplistic view. There are times when something must be done...

 

[Zorak]

Yup. I remember this was EXACTLY the sentiment you mentioned time and time again when we invaded Iraq and took out their murderous dictator, huh?

lol :homo:

And on the Stalin scale, Gaddafi rates a lot lower than Saddam. A hell of a lot lower, Lockerbie was unforgivable but not even on the same level.

It's time to face facts:
Gaddafi has been a nuisance for years to the western world, but has he ever been a threat to his own Libyan people? No, this about getting another stranglehold in the Middle East.

 

[Tim]

lol :homo:

And on the Stalin scale, Gaddafi rates a lot lower than Saddam. A hell of a lot lower, Lockerbie was unforgivable but not even on the same level.

It's time to face facts:
Gaddafi has been a nuisance for years to the western world, but has he ever been a threat to his own Libyan people? No, this about getting another stranglehold in the Middle East.

Do you even have a clue why the UN decided to take action in Libya? Gaddafi was using airforce and military to kill unarmed protesters.
That's not a good enough reason for you? And it wasn't the US that decided to create a no-fly zone, it was the nations of the world that decided that.

 

[Accountable]

We didn't go into Iraq to dispose Saddam... and don't even pretend we did.

and we're not going into Libya on a purely humanitarian mission ... and don't pretend we are.

There are times when something must be done...

Burma
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Libya
North Korea
Somalia
Sudan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Tibet


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0603/Burma-tops-worst-of-the-worst-list-of-human-rights-violators

 

[Tim]

and we're not going into Libya on a purely humanitarian mission ... and don't pretend we are.


Burma
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Libya
North Korea
Somalia
Sudan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Tibet


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0603/Burma-tops-worst-of-the-worst-list-of-human-rights-violators

And not a single one of them are currently using their fucking military to wipe out their citizens. Can you not wrap your mind around that?

I heard one of the military leaders talking about this on the radio. He had said that they assessed the situation and it was the right thing to do. With very minimal action on our part, we would have a big impact on saving human life. Our risk would be very minimal.

 

[retro]

And not a single one of them are currently using their fucking military to wipe out their citizens. Can you not wrap your mind around that?

I heard one of the military leaders talking about this on the radio. He had said that they assessed the situation and it was the right thing to do. With very minimal action on our part, we would have a big impact on saving human life. Our risk would be very minimal.

Nah, Burma is just a police state that commits gross human rights violations including child labor, human trafficking, and systematic rape of women and children to exert control over the populace.

In Equatorial Guinea, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International among other non-governmental organizations have documented severe human rights abuses in prisons, including torture, beatings, unexplained deaths and illegal detention.

Forced female circumcision is the norm in Eritrea.

Multiple international human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation. North Koreans have been referred to as "some of the world's most brutalized people" by Human Rights Watch, due to the severe restrictions placed on their political and economic freedoms.

North Korean defectors have testified to the existence of prisons and concentration camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates (about 0.85% of the population), and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder, medical experimentation, forced labour, and forced abortions. Convicted political prisoners and their families are sent to these camps, where they are prohibited from marrying, required to grow their own food, and cut off from external communication (which was previously allowed).

Sudan is at war with rebels in the southern part of that country... and they've voted to become their own country later in this year as a result. The wars and guerilla attacks there have resulted in the deaths of 300,000-400,000 people.

Any opposition to the government is considered treason and punishable by life imprisonment in Turkmenistan.

Human rights are virtually non-existent in Uzbekistan.

 

[retro]

Nah, Burma is just a police state that commits gross human rights violations including child labor, human trafficking, and systematic rape of women and children to exert control over the populace.

In Equatorial Guinea, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International among other non-governmental organizations have documented severe human rights abuses in prisons, including torture, beatings, unexplained deaths and illegal detention.

Forced female circumcision is the norm in Eritrea.

Multiple international human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation. North Koreans have been referred to as "some of the world's most brutalized people" by Human Rights Watch, due to the severe restrictions placed on their political and economic freedoms.

North Korean defectors have testified to the existence of prisons and concentration camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates (about 0.85% of the population), and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder, medical experimentation, forced labour, and forced abortions. Convicted political prisoners and their families are sent to these camps, where they are prohibited from marrying, required to grow their own food, and cut off from external communication (which was previously allowed).

Sudan is at war with rebels in the southern part of that country... and they've voted to become their own country later in this year as a result. The wars and guerilla attacks there have resulted in the deaths of 300,000-400,000 people.

Any opposition to the government is considered treason and punishable by life imprisonment in Turkmenistan.

Human rights are virtually non-existent in Uzbekistan.

and... ahem

http://www.soundbytepolitics.com/fo...ticle-Libya-international-involvement-and-oil

 

[Tim]

Nah, Burma is just a police state that commits gross human rights violations including child labor, human trafficking, and systematic rape of women and children to exert control over the populace.

In Equatorial Guinea, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International among other non-governmental organizations have documented severe human rights abuses in prisons, including torture, beatings, unexplained deaths and illegal detention.

Forced female circumcision is the norm in Eritrea.

Multiple international human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation. North Koreans have been referred to as "some of the world's most brutalized people" by Human Rights Watch, due to the severe restrictions placed on their political and economic freedoms.

North Korean defectors have testified to the existence of prisons and concentration camps with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates (about 0.85% of the population), and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder, medical experimentation, forced labour, and forced abortions. Convicted political prisoners and their families are sent to these camps, where they are prohibited from marrying, required to grow their own food, and cut off from external communication (which was previously allowed).

Sudan is at war with rebels in the southern part of that country... and they've voted to become their own country later in this year as a result. The wars and guerilla attacks there have resulted in the deaths of 300,000-400,000 people.

Any opposition to the government is considered treason and punishable by life imprisonment in Turkmenistan.

Human rights are virtually non-existent in Uzbekistan.

Carefully go through that list and point out which one we can help by sending a few f-15's over.


...waiting


...anything?


Didn't think so. It turns into a completely different scenario when you need to send tens of thousands of troops to go hand to hand. More lives would be lost than saved.
Just like that General was saying, actions need to be weighed very closely and if it makes sense to act, then do it.
Does any of this make sense to you now?

 

[Accountable]

And not a single one of them are currently using their fucking military to wipe out their citizens. Can you not wrap your mind around that?

Oh. CURRENTLY. I didn't know there was a sale on. I'm sure it's got nothing to do with oil, huh?

Somalia is in the midst of a civil war. No military killing citizens?
Colombia has a civil war going on.

According to Wikipedia, these countries are currently in military conflict causing over 1000 violent deaths every year:

India
Afghanistan
Somalia
Iraq
Pakistan
Yemen
Mexico
Sudan
Libya

Now, stipulating that we're already in 3 of those countries, which one should we invade next? How about Somalia? They're on all the lists.

 

[Alien Allen]

Carefully go through that list and point out which one we can help by sending a few f-15's over.


...waiting


...anything?


Didn't think so. It turns into a completely different scenario when you need to send tens of thousands of troops to go hand to hand. More lives would be lost than saved.
Just like that General was saying, actions need to be weighed very closely and if it makes sense to act, then do it.
Does any of this make sense to you now?

so it is ok to send in the planes if the situation warrants even if it has no impact on us?

I guess I missed the definition of war. Which is what we basically declared on Irag and Afganny and now Libya

But it aint a war in your view unless we commit troops??

I know we sent troops to Iraq etc. but we sent in the air first

Which you know damn well next in line is to send troops . IMO

 

[Accountable]

We didn't go into Iraq to dispose Saddam... and don't even pretend we did.

and we're not going into Libya on a purely humanitarian mission ... and don't pretend we are.

And not a single one of them are currently using their fucking military to wipe out their citizens. Can you not wrap your mind around that?

And yet you continue to pretend.

 

[Tim]

so it is ok to send in the planes if the situation warrants even if it has no impact on us?

I guess I missed the definition of war. Which is what we basically declared on Irag and Afganny and now Libya

But it aint a war in your view unless we commit troops??

I know we sent troops to Iraq etc. but we sent in the air first

Which you know damn well is next in line in Libya. IMO

So when the UN voted on this resolution, we should have voted against it?

You are alright with watching fighter jets dropping bombs on unarmed citizens? Or attack helicopters mowing down crowds?

 

[Tim]

I swear to god I don't know why I even try...

When logic doesn't even play into your thinking, an understanding can never be achieved...

I'm out

 

[Alien Allen]

So when the UN voted on this resolution, we should have voted against it?

You are alright with watching fighter jets dropping bombs on unarmed citizens? Or attack helicopters mowing down crowds?

You got me confused. Are you talking about Kadhafi doing that?

 

[Accountable]

I swear to god I don't know why I even try...

When logic doesn't even play into your thinking, an understanding can never be achieved...

I'm out

I just hope you wake up and realize this has little more to do with humanitarian ideals than as an excuse for regime change. The American Military Empire moves on.



............ Maybe I should start calling us AME instead of USA. What do ya'll think?