Is God Hands On?

[Peter Parka]

I'm of the opinion that shit happens, what the hell? The whole prayer thing I personally find makes no sense whatsoever. For starters, how do you know you're praying to the right god? You could be offending God even more if you're praying to the wrong one. I also find it kind of selfish and pathetic that you get loads of people who pray for something they want but never think to pray to say thank you if they get it. Then if they dont get it they start losing faith because god has forsaken them (how many of them actually do anything for God?). It's also pretty insulting to the person who really helped them out of the situation anyway, if you're going to turn round and thank a person who may not even exist and with no evidence they did anything.
A loved one got sick but pulled through? Thank the hard working doctor who did their job, don't thank god who had nothing to do with it!

 

[pladecalvo]

When you have an encounter with the Creator of mankind you will know.

So you've actually met him face to face?

A loved one got sick but pulled through? Thank the hard working doctor who did their job, don't thank god who had nothing to do with it!

Which reminds me of a little ditty:

Mr Smith is in hospital recovering from cancer surgery when his surgeon visits.

Surgeon: I have excellent news Mr Smith. I have removed the cancer and you a now free of it.

Smith: Thank God!!

Surgeon: Don't thank God, thank me. God gave you the cancer.......I took it away.

 

[Peter Parka]

:clap True that! If God made everything, he must have made cancer too!

I dont know why people would think God would want something good to happen to them anyway. From what I've seen, religion pretty much preaches that he seems to like humans suffering, burning forever in hell committing genocide by flooding the earth, ect ect.

 

[luc154]

So you've actually met him face to face?

Absolutely not. If God was to reveal Himself in His true nature I would be dead, He is too holy and we are to sinfull.

Which reminds me of a little ditty:

Mr Smith is in hospital recovering from cancer surgery when his surgeon visits.

Surgeon: I have excellent news Mr Smith. I have removed the cancer and you a now free of it.

Smith: Thank God!!

Surgeon: Don't thank God, thank me. God gave you the cancer.......I took it away.

Thank God, because God gave the surgeon hands and a brain to heal Mr Smith from his cancer. God not only does miracles Himself, He also works through His creatures, man, to glorify Himself.

 

[pladecalvo]

Absolutely not. If God was to reveal Himself in His true nature I would be dead, He is to holy and we are to sinfull.

Well you did say that when I have an encounter with the "creator" I will know...but if he's not going to reveal himself, how am I going to know? Anyway that wasn't the point. I was asking why your personal experience with your god should be considered more valid than the personal experience a Hindu has had with his god.

Thank God, because God gave the surgeon hands and a brain to heal Mr Smith from his cancer. God not only does miracles Himself, He also works through His creatures, man, to glorify Himself

. :24: So why doesn't he just create surgeons without them having the need to study at medical school for years?

 

[luc154]

:clap True that! If God made everything, he must have made cancer too!

Because of the fact that you say 'IF God', shows that you don't know Him but are guessing. This explains the state of darkness you are still in.
We can learn from Gods word that He is holy and that He is not the source of evil, or bad things. Look what happened to His Son, the most evil deed in history of man, the crucifixion. God bent it for the most wonderfull thing happened in mankind: salvation.

I dont know why people would think God would want something good to happen to them anyway. From what I've seen, religion pretty much preaches that he seems to like humans suffering, burning forever in hell committing genocide by flooding the earth, ect ect.

You say that because you don't know Him.

 

[luc154]

Well you did say that when I have an encounter with the "creator" I will know...but if he's not going to reveal himself, how am I going to know? Anyway that wasn't the point. I was asking why your personal experience with your god should be considered more valid than the personal experience a Hindu has had with his god.

. :24: So why doesn't he just create surgeons without them having the need to study at medical school for years?

God has created man to be creative just like Himself. He lets man enjoy life. That's why God gave man free will.

 

[luc154]

:clap True that! If God made everything, he must have made cancer too!

I dont know why people would think God would want something good to happen to them anyway. From what I've seen, religion pretty much preaches that he seems to like humans suffering, burning forever in hell committing genocide by flooding the earth, ect ect.

If God would not punish man for their sins then He would not be just, would He? What kind of a judge would let a liar, a thief or a murderer back out on the street?
He must punish sin, and that punishment is loneliness, pain, depression for ever.

 

[pladecalvo]

We can learn from Gods word that He is holy and that He is not the source of evil, or bad things.

Well let's see what the 'Word of God' says about this:

Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

”Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?” (Lam. 3:38).

”...that I may repent of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings” (Jer. 26:3).

”...all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin” (Jer. 36:3).

”I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts....” (Ezek. 20:25-26).

”For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them” (Jer. 32:42).

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]"If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?..." (Amos 3:6)

So we can see from your own 'word of god' that evil and misfortune do come from your god.

God has created man to be creative just like Himself. He lets man enjoy life. That's why God gave man free will.

Free will and omniscience can't co-exist.

"You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

So if your god has "scheduled every day of your life", would you please explain how you can make any free will decision that will change what your god has planned for you? How do you make a free will decision that might change what is "recorded in his book"???

 

[luc154]

Well let's see what the 'Word of God' says about this:

Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

”Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?” (Lam. 3:38).

”...that I may repent of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings” (Jer. 26:3).

”...all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin” (Jer. 36:3).

”I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts....” (Ezek. 20:25-26).

”For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them” (Jer. 32:42).

"If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?..." (Amos 3:6)

So we can see from your own 'word of god' that evil and misfortune do come from your god.

I said that God is not the source of evil. It does not come out of God since God is holy. Evil comes out of the heart of man, and that evil is used by God.
He must punish His people to get there attention. Just like a loving father would punish a child for something he did that was very wrong.

Free will and omniscience can't co-exist.

"You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

So if your god has "scheduled every day of your life", would you please explain how you can make any free will decision that will change what your god has planned for you? How do you make a free will decision that might change what is "recorded in his book"???

Easy, God stands outside of His creation. He stands outside of time and space. We cannot comprehend that because of our limitedness. He knows when you will die and if you will die in your sins or not.

He wants you to repent but still leaves you free choice. He already knows if you will choose light or darkness, you don't.

 

[pladecalvo]

I said that God is not the source of evil. It does not come out of God since God is holy.

..but he is and it does. The scripture from your own Bible shows it. Here's another one for you.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." (Col 1:16)



Now luc. What makes you think that evil, disaster, suffering and misfortune are not included in "all things?"



Perhaps the bible writers forgot to add…… ‘Except for the bad stuff’……. at the end of Col 1:16.

He must punish His people to get there attention. Just like a loving father would punish a child for something he did that was very wrong.

If you're hoping to present an analogy to illustrate God's behaviour as claimed in the Bible, you need to kill your kids to show them love. Does that seem loving to you? There is a difference between a threat of consequences to correct behaviour and eternal torture. If you're going to torture someone eternally, you're not attempting to change behaviour, you're just sadistic.

Easy, God stands outside of His creation. He stands outside of time and space. We cannot comprehend that because of our limitedness.

So you're another one who claims that 'we can't comprehend god'...then proceeds to tell us everything about what he what he is, isn't, does do, doesn't do, wants and doesn't want.

He knows when you will die and if you will die in your sins or not.

Which proves what I said doesn't it. If he knows everything we are going to do in the future then there is no free-will decision that we can make to change what he already knows will be.

 

[gillibean]

He must punish His people to get there attention. Just like a loving father would punish a child for something he did that was very wrong.

A father that has to punish his children to get their attention isn't a good father in the first place.

 

[luc154]

..but he is and it does. The scripture from your own Bible shows it. Here's another one for you.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." (Col 1:16)



Now luc. What makes you think that evil, disaster, suffering and misfortune are not included in "all things?"

It is normal that you take these verses out of context. Just like the Jehovah's witnesses use this ploy to suite their belief and try to decieve the real children of God. Let me tell you what this part means.

Paul wrote this letter to the Colossian christians to make them remember from what God has set them free. He was encouraging them by saying that God is in control of all things. You cannot take a vers from a passage and place it in another passage to suite your own context.

God created everything and saw that it was (very) good.
Not (very) evil.

If you want to know why God however lets bad, evil things happen in the world read the book of Job.

Perhaps the bible writers forgot to add…… ‘Except for the bad stuff’……. at the end of Col 1:16.

If you're hoping to present an analogy to illustrate God's behaviour as claimed in the Bible, you need to kill your kids to show them love. Does that seem loving to you? There is a difference between a threat of consequences to correct behaviour and eternal torture. If you're going to torture someone eternally, you're not attempting to change behaviour, you're just sadistic.

It is actually an infinitily loving thing to not kill man but instead come into your own creation and restore a relationship by dying for mans own rebellion. That's what Jesus did. That's the kind of love you cannot find in the world. That's why man was not able to save himself from God's wrath.

So you're another one who claims that 'we can't comprehend god'...then proceeds to tell us everything about what he what he is, isn't, does do, doesn't do, wants and doesn't want.

Which proves what I said doesn't it. If he knows everything we are going to do in the future then there is no free-will decision that we can make to change what he already knows will be.

He knows, you presume.

 

[luc154]

A father that has to punish his children to get their attention isn't a good father in the first place.

Would you say that if a child keeps trying to reach for a pot of hot water on the stove and the father slaps him is a bad thing to do?

 

[gillibean]

Would you say that if a child keeps trying to reach for a pot of hot water on the stove and the father slaps him is a bad thing to do?

That's not getting his attention. That's protecting him from harm.

 

[Peter Parka]

If God would not punish man for their sins then He would not be just, would He? What kind of a judge would let a liar, a thief or a murderer back out on the street?
He must punish sin, and that punishment is loneliness, pain, depression for ever.

Wtf? What terrible sin have all cancer suffers done to deserve that??? Both my nans died of cancer, both were lovely women, loving, kind looked after people unselfishly. Neither of them were liars, thieves or murderers. Please explain to me what they did that was so bad they deserved to suffer the torture of cancer eating their body away before killing them. All your statement has done is prove my point that God is sadistic!

 

[gillibean]

The Riddle of Epicurus

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

 

[pladecalvo]

It is normal that you take these verses out of context

Col 1:15-17

"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."

Now just how the hell have I taken this "out of context?" I have quoted your Bible verbatim. I haven't changed a word or taken it away from a passage and placed it in another passage to suite my own context as you claim. Just what part of "for by him all things were created" don't you understand?

Paul wrote this letter to the Colossian christians to make them remember from what God has set them free. He was encouraging them by saying that God is in control of all things.

Just how does that change the meaning from "For by Him all things were created" to 'God did not create evil'.

 

[Peter Parka]

This is the old arguement that Christians keep coming up with to cover themself if something in the Bible goes against their beliefs - it's taken out of context, how you interpret it ect ect. If God really wanted you to obey certain laws ect he would make it crystal clear, not leave it open to misunderstanding and interpretation.

 

[luc154]

That's not getting his attention. That's protecting him from harm.

You forgot the slapping part.