How did you know?

[Zorak]

Duh, because they all want that snazzy silver fish on the back of their cars! Talk about stylish!

 

[doombug]

I really don't see what Atheism and Agnosticism have to offer someone. I guess if one considers there is no God to be accountable to then there is no need to modify one's behavior to be acceptable to Him.

 

[Zorak]

I really don't see what Atheism and Agnosticism have to offer someone. I guess if one considers there is no God to be accountable to then there is no need to modify one's behavior to be acceptable to Him.

Just your fellow man of course

Interesting that you think that we have to modify our behaviour, that connotes to me that we are all inherently bad; a particularly Christian idea.

 

[HK]

I really don't see what Atheism and Agnosticism have to offer someone. I guess if one considers there is no God to be accountable to then there is no need to modify one's behavior to be acceptable to Him.

I don't see what this reply has to do with the actual topic, but since you asked - being agnostic is not about getting something in return. And if you're truly religious then surely it's not because you get something for it, but because you have an unshakeable belief. Hell, if someone believes in God purely because they think it'll be more rewarding than not believing, then I'd have to question their belief was even genuine in the first place.

Additionally, not having a God-parent watching over your shoulder doesn't seem to make any difference to whether someone is a good person or not. I try to treat people well because I believe it's the right thing to do, rather than because I'm scared of an everlasting punishment. I was raised without religion, and my ethics are just fine. Likewise, people who are raised with religion don't seem to have any problem committing crimes anyway, so the idea that religion magically makes people law-abiding is weak.

 

[doombug]

I don't see what this reply has to do with the actual topic, but since you asked - being agnostic is not about getting something in return. And if you're truly religious then surely it's not because you get something for it, but because you have an unshakeable belief. Hell, if someone believes in God purely because they think it'll be more rewarding than not believing, then I'd have to question their belief was even genuine in the first place.

Additionally, not having a God-parent watching over your shoulder doesn't seem to make any difference to whether someone is a good person or not. I try to treat people well because I believe it's the right thing to do, rather than because I'm scared of an everlasting punishment. I was raised without religion, and my ethics are just fine. Likewise, people who are raised with religion don't seem to have any problem committing crimes anyway, so the idea that religion magically makes people law-abiding is weak.

I look at all beliefs/non-beliefs from an objective point of view so it is natural for me to include everything.

I think it is being realistic to look at beliefs and weigh the benefits. Why anyone would want to be Atheist doesn't make sense other than to be able to do as one wishes.

 

[HK]

Why anyone would want to be Atheist doesn't make sense other than to be able to do as one wishes.

I don't think belief is something you can choose. I could not decide suddenly to believe in God, just because I thought it might be nice, or that I'd benefit somehow. And I don't think that people who genuinely believe could just turn around and decide not to one day. I might disagree with their beliefs, but I don't doubt that if that belief is completely natural then they could not just switch it off.

Besides, as I keep saying, being an atheist does not equal doing as you please.

Perhaps the imbalance you're thinking of between following religious ideals and simply living as a good person is that the two don't always match up. I would consider myself a good person by common standards - I don't murder or steal, for example - but by religious standards I don't measure up, for things like sex before marriage and eating fish when I damn well feel like it.

By religious standards, you're somewhat right, atheists get to 'do as they please'. But the majority of people without God still live by the standards of common sense and decency, and as a result don't go around murdering others and living like animals. We just enjoy more freedom from arbitrary rules laid down thousands of years ago.

 

[Panacea]

I don't think belief is something you can choose. I could not decide suddenly to believe in God, just because I thought it might be nice, or that I'd benefit somehow. And I don't think that people who genuinely believe could just turn around and decide not to one day. I might disagree with their beliefs, but I don't doubt that if that belief is completely natural then they could not just switch it off.

I've seen a number of theists make claims from the assumption humans are all programmed to believe in god, and they all do, but some choose to turn away from this obvious truth for the purposes of gaiety and freedom. I think that's an incredibly encapsulated point of view, ignoring the huge impact "where you're born" plays on your likelihood of believing one thing or another, if nothing else.

I once had a professor say he wished he could be of some sort of faith, mostly because he had studied so many and found the cultures and mythology fascinating. He was almost sorrowful in this confession, as if he would press a magic button to "believe" but simply couldn't. He felt there was likely no god. End of story.

Besides, as I keep saying, being an atheist does not equal doing as you please.

Perhaps the imbalance you're thinking of between following religious ideals and simply living as a good person is that the two don't always match up. I would consider myself a good person by common standards - I don't murder or steal, for example - but by religious standards I don't measure up, for things like sex before marriage and eating fish when I damn well feel like it.

By religious standards, you're somewhat right, atheists get to 'do as they please'. But the majority of people without God still live by the standards of common sense and decency, and as a result don't go around murdering others and living like animals. We just enjoy more freedom from arbitrary rules laid down thousands of years ago.

Some people are simply unconvinced gods exist, and they are content with that conclusion; fuck, even happy

They follow the moral standards their societies push, and depending on their intelligence and reason, integrate moral standards from other subcultures that suit their needs. This depiction is not dissimilar to most theists, who bend and shape their moralities based on their desire, logic, and societal influences. It would appear only incredibly sheltered fundamentalists would require a religion's moral code alone. Culture appears to fill in the gaps for most people.

 

[doombug]

I don't think belief is something you can choose. I could not decide suddenly to believe in God, just because I thought it might be nice, or that I'd benefit somehow. And I don't think that people who genuinely believe could just turn around and decide not to one day. I might disagree with their beliefs, but I don't doubt that if that belief is completely natural then they could not just switch it off.

Besides, as I keep saying, being an atheist does not equal doing as you please.

Perhaps the imbalance you're thinking of between following religious ideals and simply living as a good person is that the two don't always match up. I would consider myself a good person by common standards - I don't murder or steal, for example - but by religious standards I don't measure up, for things like sex before marriage and eating fish when I damn well feel like it.

By religious standards, you're somewhat right, atheists get to 'do as they please'. But the majority of people without God still live by the standards of common sense and decency, and as a result don't go around murdering others and living like animals. We just enjoy more freedom from arbitrary rules laid down thousands of years ago.

I think many people do choose Atheism to be able to do what they please. That is what I have seen anyway. People can rationalize anything when there isn't much of a standard present. With Christians the bible SHOULD be the standard even though many times it isn't. But again this just shows the fallibility of humans and human reasoning. I think human reasoning can be distorted easier than the bible. Written words are written words while reasoning seems to take whatever path people can squeeze it down.

 

[HK]

I once had a professor say he wished he could be of some sort of faith, mostly because he had studied so many and found the cultures and mythology fascinating. He was almost sorrowful in this confession, as if he would press a magic button to "believe" but simply couldn't. He felt there was likely no god. End of story.

I can relate to that feeling. It's nice to belong, everyone enjoys that feeling, and sometimes I've thought it'd be so nice to have a ready-made group of people out there who would accept you purely because you believed in the same God as they did. Also, the emotional support of believing someone else will put things right for you if your intentions are good enough is very appealing.

 

[HK]

I think many people do choose Atheism to be able to do what they please.

Did you read anything that I said about faith not being something you can switch on or off like a light?

 

[Panacea]

I can relate to that feeling. It's nice to belong, everyone enjoys that feeling, and sometimes I've thought it'd be so nice to have a ready-made group of people out there who would accept you purely because you believed in the same God as they did. Also, the emotional support of believing someone else will put things right for you if your intentions are good enough is very appealing.

Sure! I think it's silly to assume theism is the tough moral choice...I see theists doing all sorts of things, just like anyone else. The part that is missed with uncommon beliefs, whether atheism or a local religious minority, is that majority feeling. Certainly places of worship aren't always completely accepting. There can be judgments and snarkiness in them, and I think that's why a lot of Christians, namely, claim no church attendance.

BornReady seems quite pleased with his church, though, even without faith in a god character, so it's possible to find that!

 

[HK]

The part that is missed with uncommon beliefs, whether atheism or a local religious minority, is that majority feeling.

I do wish there was a physical church for agnostics I would be in there like a flash, though I suppose a church is possibly the wrong term. Maybe an Uncertaintorium?

BornReady seems quite pleased with his church, though, even without faith in a god character, so it's possible to find that!

I've considered this! Joining a church regardless. I think it'd feel awkward for me though - I'm not a very good liar, so if anyone asked me about my faith, what could I say?

 

[pjbleek]

I do wish there was a physical church for agnostics I would be in there like a flash, though I suppose a church is possibly the wrong term. Maybe an Uncertaintorium?



I've considered this! Joining a church regardless. I think it'd feel awkward for me though - I'm not a very good liar, so if anyone asked me about my faith, what could I say?

be open and honest, that is the part of religion..be honest going into it, question its core and the more understood it is (to you) the easier it would be to follow it. Look at the Catholic Church it is all based on mysteries of faith, why not have Jesus Christ actually come down and reveal himself? would it defeat the purpose of the religion? no! it would bring more to the congregation...

 

[Panacea]

I do wish there was a physical church for agnostics I would be in there like a flash, though I suppose a church is possibly the wrong term. Maybe an Uncertaintorium?

I've considered this! Joining a church regardless. I think it'd feel awkward for me though - I'm not a very good liar, so if anyone asked me about my faith, what could I say?

But what fun is sitting around talking about a lack of belief, yanno? Though I think an a-unicornist church would be most entertaining.

In seriousness, I know what you mean. In my multicultural course for a project, many of my classmates "switched" places of worship and presented on their experience. Aside from Scientology centers, which actually kick you out, apparently, if you're not a member, most places seemed welcoming. Buddhist and Jain places of worship were totally awe-inspiring...

I imagine churches are a bit less intrusive/fundie in the UK? One might be able to attend without really divulging all of their ideals.

 

[doombug]

Did you read anything that I said about faith not being something you can switch on or off like a light?

Yes I did but that is your perception. A belief can be changed through examination of the truth.

 

[HK]

Yes I did but that is your perception. A belief can be changed through examination of the truth.

Well, ignoring whether or not you can choose your beliefs, since we disagree on that, I still don't think anyone's motivation for identifying as atheist is so that they can 'do as they please'. How would you explain the millions of atheists and agnostics who are law-abiding, good people?

 

[doombug]

They follow the moral standards their societies push, and depending on their intelligence and reason, integrate moral standards from other subcultures that suit their needs. This depiction is not dissimilar to most theists, who bend and shape their moralities based on their desire, logic, and societal influences. It would appear only incredibly sheltered fundamentalists would require a religion's moral code alone. Culture appears to fill in the gaps for most people.

You see HK statements like this prove people CHOOSE to fit what they want to believe. Most of the time it is based on what fits them instead of the truth. Atheists fall into this category. When you can pick and choose what you believe "buffet style" well, one chooses what they want.

 

[doombug]

Well, ignoring whether or not you can choose your beliefs, since we disagree on that, I still don't think anyone's motivation for identifying as atheist is so that they can 'do as they please'. How would you explain the millions of atheists and agnostics who are law-abiding, good people?

Have any proof of these millions?

 

[Panacea]

You carry on about the truth, with the implication a universal truth exists Doombug, but you're a fool because you don't have the courage to acknowledge one doesn't exist.

 

[HK]

Have any proof of these millions?

That's avoiding the question.

You know you don't seem like a stupid guy, but it gets old really fast trying to talk to someone who won't answer a direct question.

I'm genuinely interested in how you explain atheists who don't commit crimes if religion is all that holds people in check. If you don't want to answer then fine, but I'm not going to go off on a tangent of trying to prove the fact that, shock horror, some people aren't criminals.