How Americans Continue to Relegate Themselves to Serfdom

[All Else Failed]

I don't listen to Savage. In fact I do not listen to talk radio at all.


There is no such thing as a real right-wing party in America. They are soft.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I don't listen to Savage. In fact I do not listen to talk radio at all.

:24: :lol:rofl2:

 

[Minor Axis]

I appreciate the efforts to distinguish conservatives and libertarians from Republicans but in our 2 party system it seems an exercise in futility because most conservatives and libertarians will, on a national level at least, vote Republican or not at all and the contempt in which they hold the Democrats will ensure they vote Republican. To lay the blame for the nanny state in the laps of liberals,progressives and leftists proclaiming "Liberals LOVE the nanny state and big government which constantly complicates things" indicates slanted perspective. The nanny state is as much a result of the right as it is of the left. There are no greater examples of the bipartisan created "nanny state" than the PATRIOT Act and NDAA. How that glaring fact tends to escape people and how anyone can continue to lay the blame for nanny state at the feet of the left is beyond me.

Overall well said. :thumbup

Libertarians like to talk about how they are different but if there is no adequate Libertarian candidate their default choice moves to the GOP. As an Independent voter the way I see it is that Democrats want to give too much to the people and Republicans want to give to much to the rich and what they consider the engines of the economy. GOPers also try to sell this bullshit notion that giving rich people economic breaks automatically creates jobs. Giving money for this purpose without stipulations is ridiculous. All it does is help rich folks just like giving breaks to regular people helps them. The question is if you are going to give money, who would benefit by it the most? Some Libertarian things I agree with except they have strange notions about individual liberties forgetting that they live in society and are not hermits living alone up in the mountains.

What I retain forefront in my thinking is that if you are working class, the GOP tries to make you think they are part of their party and you are. You are the little peon that keeps the big wheels a roll'n.

 

[All Else Failed]

:24: :lol:rofl2:

You're acting like a child.

Is there a reason why I would be lying about not listen to a radio show on a forum that I have nothing to lose in admitting such a thing?

What I retain forefront in my thinking is that if you are working class, the GOP tries to make you think they are part of their party and you are. You are the little peon that keeps the big wheels a roll'n.

And the dems don't do this?


Neither party cares about you

 

[Kyle B]

I appreciate the efforts to distinguish conservatives and libertarians from Republicans but in our 2 party system it seems an exercise in futility because most conservatives and libertarians will, on a national level at least, vote Republican or not at all and the contempt in which they hold the Democrats will ensure they vote Republican. To lay the blame for the nanny state in the laps of liberals,progressives and leftists proclaiming "Liberals LOVE the nanny state and big government which constantly complicates things" indicates slanted perspective. The nanny state is as much a result of the right as it is of the left. There are no greater examples of the bipartisan created "nanny state" than the PATRIOT Act and NDAA. How that glaring fact tends to escape people and how anyone can continue to lay the blame for nanny state at the feet of the left is beyond me.

And to be fair, liberals are going to vote for democrats. You're naturally going to pick the major party which aligns with your beliefs.

I do not consider Republicans right-ists in any way. Modern Republicans are moderates at best when compared to what Republicans were, say, 40-50 years ago. The leftist paradigm encompasses both parties now.

Remember though, the economy isn't the only political issue. When you look at social issues, the Republicans are very much to the right, and Democrats are moderate. From a European standpoint for example, America is a pretty conservative country.

 

[Johnfromokc]

You're acting like a child.

No - you just crack me up with your bullshit.

Is there a reason why I would be lying about not listen to a radio show on a forum that I have nothing to lose in admitting such a thing?

Anyone can claim anything on the internet. I find it quite amusing how none of the right wing conservobots on here or anywhere else claim to not listen to the right wing propaganda stations, yet they somehow mysteriously manage to repeat the same right wing talking points verbatim.

Interesting, no?

And the dems don't do this?

The Dems are far more the party of the working class than Republicans, although they share the propensity toward the monied lobbyists with Republicans. The Republicans fuck the working class right out in the open by using divisive issues like religion, race, immigration, abortion, gun rights, etc., to distract the attention of the dumb masses that they are being economically screwed by the right.

Neither party cares about you

If you are a worker bee and think the Republicans actually give one little fuck about you, you are completely deluded. Many working class people take a conservo-libertarian stance in the hopes that someday, they might enter the top 1%.

Here's a reality check for people who think that - the odds are 99% that it ain't gonna happen - even for 99% of the small business owners out there. So it's pretty fucking moronic to vote in the interests of the top 1% and voting against your own bests interests in the hopes of winning the economic lottery.

 

[Accountable]

The Dems are far more the party of the working class than Republicans, although they share the propensity toward the monied lobbyists with Republicans. The Republicans fuck the working class right out in the open by using divisive issues like religion, race, immigration, abortion, gun rights, etc., to distract the attention of the dumb masses that they are being economically screwed by the right.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Surely you are not attempting to imply Republicans do not utilize those wedge issues to divide us against one another?

 

[CityGirl]

And to be fair, liberals are going to vote for democrats. You're naturally going to pick the major party which aligns with your belief.

True that, Kyle. In all my reading (and it may not be diverse enough) I don't see an attempt by those on the left to separate Liberals and progressives from the Democratic party. Which is interesting, in that it seems to me, there is far more diversity in the democratic party than there is in the Republican party. Those who claim to be in the Democratic party tend to have a smorgasboard of ideas on multiple issues while those who lean Republican tend to be much more uniform in their belief system. To me it seems trying to separate conservatism from Republicans is like trying to separate progressivism from the Democrats. Perhaps that is how parties evolve and devolve. Maybe the perception of conservatives that the Republican party is no longer representative of their values and political ideology is leading to the rise of a new party. I'm thinking of the Whig Party which unraveled over major divides in party principles.

 

[All Else Failed]

No - you just crack me up with your bullshit.

What bullshit? I have nothing to hide. I have nothing to lose by saying I do or don't listen to a radio show. You'll making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Anyone can claim anything on the internet. I find it quite amusing how none of the right wing conservobots on here or anywhere else claim to not listen to the right wing propaganda stations, yet they somehow mysteriously manage to repeat the same right wing talking points verbatim.

Interesting, no?

You're getting pretty paranoid here. Like I said before, I don't have anything to lose if I even did listen to talk radio. I would just admit it and carry on. I have no clue why you keep on coming up with these conspiratorial theories about how I somehow have all of my thoughts transplanted from Republican talk radio.

and you really need to get the whole Conservative = Republican thing out of your head. Not the same things. But, you won't because you yourself have leftist talking points that you keep going over that devolve into paranoia about where people get their ideas from.

The Dems are far more the party of the working class than Republicans, although they share the propensity toward the monied lobbyists with Republicans. The Republicans fuck the working class right out in the open by using divisive issues like religion, race, immigration, abortion, gun rights, etc., to distract the attention of the dumb masses that they are being economically screwed by the right.

Seeing as how the democrats have just as much investment in big business you're wrong. They may pander here and there, pass a bill or something but in the end the democrats and republicans are for big business, not you or me.


what are you talking about? All of the issues you just listed are actually quite important

If you are a worker bee and think the Republicans actually give one little fuck about you, you are completely deluded. Many working class people take a conservo-libertarian stance in the hopes that someday, they might enter the top 1%.

Here's a reality check for people who think that - the odds are 99% that it ain't gonna happen - even for 99% of the small business owners out there. So it's pretty fucking moronic to vote in the interests of the top 1% and voting against your own bests interests in the hopes of winning the economic lottery.

A lot of working class people are conservative because they actually work. Conservatives want to lower taxes, while leftists only want to increase taxes. It has been this way for a while now and I'm not sure how you missed this pattern.

PS: Here is a little reality check for you: The wealthy people in this country aren't just conservatives or republicans. There are plenty of wealthy leftists. They have a lot invested in big business and government. They don't want to help you either. If you think for some reason the fact that they have an uppercase "D" near their name makes them some sort of warrior for the middle class you're out of your mind. The only way the middle class will prosper again is when big government gets its tentacles out of their business.

but odds are you won't agree because you're addicted to government

 

[All Else Failed]

Surely you are not attempting to imply Republicans do not utilize those wedge issues to divide us against one another?

Those aren't wedge issues. Those issues actually matter.


Take up your criticisms with the leftists, since class warfare and using race as leverage is an old play of theirs

 

[Johnfromokc]

What bullshit? I have nothing to hide. I have nothing to lose by saying I do or don't listen to a radio show. You'll making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Says the guy who constantly repeats the right wing talking points. Who are you trying to convice that you don't listen to right wing entertainment media? Yourself? Give it a rest - it's obvious from your bot-speak where you get your talking points.


Case in point is this quote below:

A lot of working class people are conservative because they actually work. Conservatives want to lower taxes, while leftists only want to increase taxes. It has been this way for a while now and I'm not sure how you missed this pattern.

Classic right wing horse shit. I guess liberals that work 50-60 hour weeks don't count in this astute statement of yours. You conservo-libertarian types defend the top 1% that pay most of their taxes at the capital gains rate of 15% as well as defending corporations that pay no tax at all while receiving tax subsidies from government. All the while, you conservo-libertarian types decry the working family making $35,000 per year and struggling to make ends meet for taking advantage of the earned income credit.

Add in the fact that you conservo-libertarian types call for even greater deregulation for banks and corporations, convieniently forgetting the deregulation of the financial industry that caused the current economic misery the nation and the world is currently facing - and it becomes clear that you have been brain washed by the corporatocracy.

Yes, you conservo-libertarians want less taxes for the rich in the deluded hope that you will someday be rich - and that includes screwing your fellow Americans out of affordable universal health care coverage because some of the millionaire class might have to pay a little extra tax on their adjusted gross income over $250,000. Do you ever stop and think about how convoluted your thought process is?

Tell us AEF - what tax bracket are you in? I'll take your word for it even though you continue to deny the sources of your talking points.

PS: Here is a little reality check for you: The wealthy people in this country aren't just conservatives or republicans. There are plenty of wealthy leftists. They have a lot invested in big business and government. They don't want to help you either. If you think for some reason the fact that they have an uppercase "D" near their name makes them some sort of warrior for the middle class you're out of your mind.

More right wing asshattery here. Had you been paying attention, you would know that most of us who are pragmatists in our political thinking understand clearly that many Democrats are bought and paid for just like the alleged conservo-libertarians you try and separate from the completely bought and paid for Republicans. But the fact remains that the only party that remotely gives a damn about the working class are a few members of our federal legislature with a "D" or an "I" behind their names.

The only way the middle class will prosper again is when big government gets its tentacles out of their business.

And what business would that be? You mean like the right wing in our bed rooms telling us who we can sleep with or marry? Or the right wing in a womans womb? Or the right wing continually attempting to insert religion into government? Or the right wing continually scaring people into thinking Democrats want to take their guns. (there are of course zero Democrat gun owners )

but odds are you won't agree because you're addicted to government

I heard Neal Boortz (libertarian talk show host) say this EXACT fucking phrase on Monday. What a coincidence, eh?

 

[All Else Failed]

Says the guy who constantly repeats the right wing talking points. Who are you trying to convice that you don't listen to right wing entertainment media? Yourself? Give it a rest - it's obvious from your bot-speak where you get your talking points.

You're impossible to get through to. You continually forget what I have said a few posts ago. Political memes exist, if you know what that means, and they are common within particular political circles. Common language and phrases are used in all of them. You don't need to listen to talk radio to know this.

You conservo-libertarian types defend the top 1% that pay most of their taxes at the capital gains rate of 15% as well as defending corporations that pay no tax at all while receiving tax subsidies from government. All the while, you conservo-libertarian types decry the working family making $35,000 per year and struggling to make ends meet for taking advantage of the earned income credit.

The upper-middle ON UP pay for everything. You can fact check that too. It is reality.

and I'm not decrying anyone.

Add in the fact that you conservo-libertarian types call for even greater deregulation for banks and corporations, convieniently forgetting the deregulation of the financial industry that caused the current economic misery the nation and the world is currently facing - and it becomes clear that you have been brain washed by the corporatocracy.

I'm for smart and limited regulation, but what you're talking about only exists because government has GOTTEN INTO big business. It needs to stay out.

Yes, you conservo-libertarians want less taxes for the rich in the deluded hope that you will someday be rich - and that includes screwing your fellow Americans out of affordable universal health care coverage because some of the millionaire class might have to pay a little extra tax on their adjusted gross income over $250,000. Do you ever stop and think about how convoluted your thought process is?

No, I want less taxes for everyone. I will become wealthy due to my hard work, not because of handouts which the left love oh so much.

Tell us AEF - what tax bracket are you in? I'll take your word for it even though you continue to deny the sources of your talking points.

That is personal information I'm not willing to give to a paranoid leftist.

More right wing asshattery here. Had you been paying attention, you would know that most of us who are pragmatists in our political thinking understand clearly that many Democrats are bought and paid for just like the alleged conservo-libertarians you try and separate from the completely bought and paid for Republicans. But the fact remains that the only party that remotely gives a damn about the working class are a few members of our federal legislature with a "D" or an "I" behind their names.

Sorry, but this is not reality. Republicans want to cut taxes for everyone, the left wants to raise and spend.

And what business would that be? You mean like the right wing in our bed rooms telling us who we can sleep with or marry? Or the right wing in a womans womb? Or the right wing continually attempting to insert religion into government? Or the right wing continually scaring people into thinking Democrats want to take their guns. (there are of course zero Democrat gun owners )

Oh please. No one is telling you who you can or cannot sleep with. You're exaggerating once again. Abortion will always be legal, even republicans aren't dumb enough to ban it. And America is still a secularist government, don't lose any sleep over it.

I heard Neal Boortz (libertarian talk show host) say this EXACT fucking phrase on Monday. What a coincidence, eh?

I don't even know who Neal Boortz is.

 

[Accountable]

Surely you are not attempting to imply Republicans do not utilize those wedge issues to divide us against one another?

Of course not! Perish the thought. No, I was chuckling at your reflexive partisanship showing when you blame such things on the Repubs as if they're the only ones to do such things. King Barry reaches into that goody bag pretty regularly, too, as every good dem does.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Of course not! Perish the thought. No, I was chuckling at your reflexive partisanship showing when you blame such things on the Repubs as if they're the only ones to do such things. King Barry reaches into that goody bag pretty regularly, too, as every good dem does.

You know better than that.

You also know that Republicans are pro-big business to the detriment of small business and the working class. So are the Dems largely beholden to lobby money.

But you also know that what little representation remains for the working class comes from the left. You and so many other right leaners have bought the right wing story line that any social program that helps the working class is a socialist "entitlement" and is therefore automatically bad.

The biggest difference between the Dems and Reps is that while both are fond of the lobby money, the Dems try and throw the working class some leftovers while the right makes no pretense of fucking over the working class in order to redirect billions $$$ to their true constituants in big business.

What blows my mind is the sheer number of useful idiots in the American working class and the small business class that sides with the right and votes for their own demise. You righties have some strong koolaide indeed. I stand in awe.

 

[Accountable]

You know better than that.

You also know that Republicans are pro-big business to the detriment of small business and the working class. So are the Dems largely beholden to lobby money.

But you also know that what little representation remains for the working class comes from the left. You and so many other right leaners have bought the right wing story line that any social program that helps the working class is a socialist "entitlement" and is therefore automatically bad.

The biggest difference between the Dems and Reps is that while both are fond of the lobby money, the Dems try and throw the working class some leftovers while the right makes no pretense of fucking over the working class in order to redirect billions $$$ to their true constituants in big business.

What blows my mind is the sheer number of useful idiots in the American working class and the small business class that sides with the right and votes for their own demise. You righties have some strong koolaide indeed. I stand in awe.

The part of your post that I quoted was about using wedge issues.

 

[Johnfromokc]

The part of your post that I quoted was about using wedge issues.

It's those wedge issues that distract people from the real issues in my response.

 

[All Else Failed]

John, can the Democrats do anything wrong in your eyes? Or are you just for blaming everything on the Republicans?

 

[Johnfromokc]

John, can the Democrats do anything wrong in your eyes? Or are you just for blaming everything on the Republicans?

Where do you come up with statements like this? Do you read posts with the intent to understand what was posted?

Pay attention now:

Too many liberals have abandoned the working class.

I have previously acknowledged the fondness Democrats have for lobby money. How much clearer can I be?

It is a known FACT that the right wing - right wing encompassing libertarians, conservatives, neo-conservatives, Republicans etc. - support big business over the working class. That is a foregone conclusion. They believe in taking care of the big monied interests in the theory that through their inherent goodness, capitalist blessings will "Trickle Down" upon the masses.

Well I am here to tell you that I have first-hand experience with over 32 years and counting of work and business experience that "Trickle Down" has failed the working class miserably. It is pissing upon the heads of the working class and telling them it is raining.

Do the Democrats do anything wrong? FUCK YES! Need me to spell it out any plainer for you?

The Democrats have left the working class to the Republicans. Many middle class and working class people see this and have turned to the right despite the fucking they are taking from the right. The right wing employs a massive disinformation campaign through the media - what was once known as the "Liberal Media" has been purchased by the monied interests. Don't believe it? Check this out:

http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart/main?gclid=CJqpyqm1lq0CFWrktgodCXVnOQ

That is why I keep telling anyone who will listen that the United States is governed by the Corpratocracy. It is not a fucking secret - the information is available to anyone willing to seek it out. The "Mainstream Media" is no longer the liberal media - it is the Corporate Media - and they are getting their message out quite effectively.

Wages are decreasing. Health insurance is getting prohibitively expensive for most American families. Employee benefits are decreasing. Corporate profits and the incomes of the top 1%, however, are exponentially inceasing. These are verifiable facts.

Yet despite these facts, many of the working class cling to the very Republican/Conservative/Libertarian political philosophies that are fucking them over in plain sight. Why? The Democrats have failed to get their message out. While the Democrats were counting their reelection dollars contributed by the monied interests, the monied interests were busy buying up the media and convincing the voting public that Democrats were the enemy of the working class.

So - has the right wing leopard changed his spots and now representing the will of the toiling masses? FUCK NO!

The only hope the working class has in this two-party system is what remains of the skeleton of the Democratic Party that once represented them. Until a viable Labor Party rises from the ashes of the Democratic Party, the working class in America is fucked.

Do you understand my position now?

 

[All Else Failed]

I realize that you have said in previous posts that democrats have done wrong, but it seems like you place virtually all the blame on the right. This is always a mistake with anything, seeing as how all of our problems are complex, multifaceted and have their roots spreading out into numerous organizations and entities.

You say basically that the democrats are the least of two evils, but what good is it to vote and support an evil? Our modern political systems need to be totally revamped. A new order needs to come about.

Too many liberals have abandoned the working class.

Yes, and this is because they have as much invested interest in lobbying and big business as the right does on Capitol Hill.

It is a known FACT that the right wing - right wing encompassing libertarians, conservatives, neo-conservatives, Republicans etc. - support big business over the working class. That is a foregone conclusion. They believe in taking care of the big monied interests in the theory that through their inherent goodness, capitalist blessings will "Trickle Down" upon the masses.

So do the democrats and liberals. You must understand that in order to be in office, you MUST have moneyed interests and support the big businesses. It cannot be anything else as our system stands right now. So ragging on the right for basically everything the left does as well makes no sense and boils down to your predisposition to hate almost anything right-wing. You're engaging in tribalism, essentially.

That is why I keep telling anyone who will listen that the United States is governed by the Corpratocracy.

which is propped up by democrats and liberals as well


soooo...?

Yet despite these facts, many of the working class cling to the very Republican/Conservative/Libertarian political philosophies

This has many reasons. The working class is mostly religious, which the left wishes to dispose of. The working class has a high amount of veterans in it. The working class see their taxes increased incrementally to support our bloated bureaucracy which was set into place by both parties, but mostly democratic regimes over the past 60 years. Those are a few reasons why the working class still votes right-wing.

the monied interests were busy buying up the media and convincing the voting public that Democrats were the enemy of the working class.

Both parties do not care about the middle class that much, but give me a break with this media thing. The only "conservative" (I say that lightly because modern conservatives would be considered democrats 50 years ago) media outlet is FOX and some talk radio shows. Leftists own Hollywood, most newspapers, the internet and TV outlets.





Quick question: Do you support socialism in any respect?